The Dude Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Beamup, Trouble is, all the info you mention is already available, IF you want to spend the time cycling through all your units. If the info is already there, why not make it more accessable?? I don't think a "realism" argument is relevant here, b/c if you were a real life commander you wouldn't have the God's Eye view of the situation that is presented in CM. Realistically, shouldn't you be restricted to the view available to the highest HQ present in the scenario? The fun and interesting part of a game for me is making decisions based on the info available. If I spend more time each turn trying to find this info than I do applying it then I think a mistake has been made in the game design. Also, in one of Fionn's posts above, he states we should defer to the designers' decisions b/c they have more experience in designing games. True enough, but I have quite a bit of experience playing games (starting w/SSi's Operation Apocalypse in the early 80's), which is more important? After all, plenty of developers have put out horrible games (Patriot, anyone?) that I knew were bad, even though I have never designed a single computer wargame. I think it comes down to this: some players (myself included) feel that the info ALREADY AVAILABLE in the game could be more accessable. I don't want MORE info, I don't want to know how many times the men in my units may have soiled themselves during the last turn, I just want a quick summary so I can get back to making decisions and playing the game. I don't want to micro-manage, and I don't want the game to FORCE me to micro-manage (eg having to watch a replay from the viewpoint of each unit every turn to figure out what is going on, as has been suggested by others). In any case, I still think CM is light years ahead of any other wargame covering the tactical level, I just hope BTS will seriously consider including a summary ( I know they have said it won't be in the initial release). Finally, though based on comments made by BTS above I may not be one of their customers, I thought I might give a little background on myself. I own FC2, OTR (and was a beta tester for it), Achtung Sptifire, as well as TacOps and Dragoon from BTS's fellow developers in the Battlefront endeavor, among others. If I am not their type of customer, perhaps their view is a little to narrow? Regards, The Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Dude, I hear ya. But I also heard from you, "I don't want to micro-manage, and I don't want the game to FORCE me to micro-manage (eg having to watch a replay from the viewpoint of each unit every turn to figure out what is going on, as has been suggested by others)". It just seems to me that you feel you need every little piece of information avaialable from every aspect for every individual (sounds like the needs & wants of a micromanager), just to make reasonable command decision. On the surface your explanation sounds a whee bit cookoo. You say you don't want to micromanage, yet you want the game designer to give a tool to empower you to do just that. If you and others feel the need to do that (watch over-and-over), well I gotta chuckle. It just seems like you are being way to hyper-critical of information needed to make decisions in this game. Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoYankee Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 OK, how about a compromise? I all I really wanted was an easy way to jump immediately to a unit. Yes, I know this is not 100% historically acurate, but I shudder to think how long a large battle will take if finishing the demo is 1-2 hours. Think of tryiong to keep track of how many units? I know Fionn and Martin did it. But I think most of us non-grogs would love this crutch. How about a simple list of availible units? No info other than a "click here to jump to the unit" button. That still keeps the person in the dark, but speeds up the process of scouring through the ranks to find a particular unit. TY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 TangoYankee, Your request is one that many want. I have no clue if it will ever get in, but the request as you describe it seems reasonable. Why would kingtiger not want it? One of my favorite occurences is going to a unit to issue orders and finding it isn't available, it's knocked out or gone. I think the unit overview/picklist would be a tool that would enable/empower me to quickly pick each unit and check it's status. And I know I would do it. But, CM in all it's current glory, leaves open the possibility that I won't check each unit. This is an aspect I really love. I remember your post under war Stories: First game ever: The Last Defense as Ger. Clicking on my overconfident Tiger sitting in scattered trees and wondering why all of a sudden it wouldn't respond. Oh, the Allies got tanks too. That sucks.... I have had similar occurences in the Reisberg scenario where I need smoke and go to my 88 on the hill, of course I am assuming that the gun is fine. I find that the crew is panicked or pinned. I always find this amazing, because I rarely bothered to check it's status either in the movies or in the few previous order-issuing phases. I think with the pop-up units list (pseudo OOB) with hot-pick for quickly moving to each unit either in playback or order-issue would empower me to easily check each and every unit on every turn, thereby reducing my chance of having missed something or overlooked something. Checking each and every unit is something I currently don't do. Just letting you know where I'm coming from. But, a future pop-up hot-pick unit list is not all that bad an addition and in terms of compromise, that seems fine. But, I have no say, only feelings and thoughts like everyone else. Hopefully for you, the pop-up OOB or some variant eventually makes it in. I presonally don't need it, but could live with any additions. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Kingtiger, Well, I don't think I am cookoo, at least not on this issue . Actually, I don't want "every little piece of information available from every aspect for every individual". Just the info the game already provides now. In fact, I think my post was quite clear on that point. BTW, CM did include labels that givea units status, which I use, is that micro-management? Are the casualties your units have taken be of any interest to you in making a command decision? If that info shouldn't be used b/c a real commander wouldn't have access to it, why is it provided at all? As it is, if you click on a unit you can get all the info I think could be provided more efficiently in a chart. Also, I don't watch the replay multiple times from every units' perspective, another person on the board said that is what he does to get the info he needs. That is what I think is tedious. FWIW, I usually watch the initial replay from a zoomed out perspective, and if I see something interesting, I'll go back and watch it from a closer view. I like doing that, but I would also like to hit a key and get a quick summary of my units, encompassing starting strength, current strentgh, and maybe morale. Would also be nice if you could select the unit from the chart. If that is your definition of micro-management, well, I am sure you are the formost expert on your own opinion. For the record though, I do sometimes let the computer manage my cities in Civ2 and SMAC, so I can't be a total control freak . Regards, The Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingtiger Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Dude, I like your comment: I am sure you are the formost expert on your own opinion. Quite appropriate. During playback, like you I watch an overview and focus on a problem area. When I review the problem area I make some determinations on which units are in trouble or should possibly be advanced or withdrawn. In the orders phase, I select several units, issue an order or two, and move on. I rarely check all units. If the review screen you mentioned were present, then I would check each and every unit from that screen. If I see a unit with 3 or 4 casualties from the review screen, I'm gonna check it. If I see my 88 on the hill from the review screen is abandoned, then I know it won't be available a few turns down the road when I need it for some smoke cover. It just seems to me that the review screen will significantly reduce my chance of missing something (great built-in feature of CM). It (review screen) also makes it much easier for number crunchers to write down casualities from this screen and compare to previous numbers, knowing exactly how many casualties were taken in that turn. Yes the information is there, but it is also there on the battle field. If you need that information on the battle field you need to go down to each squad and check up or radio in. If you need to check it in CM, then you need to go down to each unit and check in, and then maybe for some people write it down. Sorry about the Cookoo comment, that was uncalled for and tactless. Lacking tact is a character flaw of mine. Sincerely, Richard Kalajian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Bravo Tango Yankee! Maybe we're getting enmired with the 'STATUS' part of this whole debate. As I've said before, I don't care how many rounds of what type of ammo each unit has left, all I want is to have a picklist thingie that I can use to see what's still alive and get to it quickly. This would be a perfect compromise as far as I can see and would neatly sidestep the excessive intel arguments presented. Also, I'd just like to say that even though Charles and Steve are without doubt highly-gifted designers who have done a SUPERB job in conceiving and executing this masterpiece, to imply that the suggestions for improvement on this issue offered here are of no value does not sit well with me. The only reason they have been offered is out of love for the game. We are not selfish dogs trying to make life hell on everyone else and easy for ourselves, but are truly interested in seeing a better game produced for the good of all. No flame intended and, I hope, none received. With nothing but best wishes for all, ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Kingtiger (Richard), No problem with the cookoo comment, others have made that accusation before I can see your point about why you don't want the screen, but you wouldn't necessarily have to use it. I love the game, and this issue was never that be a deal for me, I was just suprised at how vehement those who don't want the sceen were, as well as some of BTS's comments. No big deal, I still plan to get the game, and have recommended the demo to several friends. The demo has already sucked up every free moment since I got it, except when I am posting here Good gaming, and perhaps we can give PBEM a go when the final version is out. Regards, The Dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Admittedly I'm just an FNG, but after a few playings of the demo I agree with Tango Yankee. I'd like to see a list of units that I could double click and go to that unit. Maybe even have an 'X' next to the dead units, or just remove them from the list. I would hope that in real life one of my junior officers would remind me if I had forgotten a unit even existed ------------------ - Lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TangoYankee Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 I think The Dude summed it up very well with 'Actually, I don't want "every little piece of information available from every aspect for every individual". Just the info the game already provides now.' Mostly the latter sentence. KT: 'And I know I would do it. But, CM in all it's current glory, leaves open the possibility that I won't check each unit. This is an aspect I really love.' I totally agree that it's a feature you enjoy. I don't know if I want to be forced to use it though. What if you're dealing with 100+ units on a 4km x 4km map? I think it would be damn difficult to keep up with all of them. That makes it more tedious and time consuming (i.e. micro-managment) which, in turn, makes it less fun. I believe that fun and/or enjoyment is the primary motivator(sp?) for buying this game. I'm not whining about how much effort I would have to put into the game, but rather (I'm whining) about how much EXTRA/UNEEDED effort the person must put into the game. Not asking for a rewrite, just a little help for non-grogs. TY P.S. Hey BTS, what is your stance on this? I'm interested to know what you think. [This message has been edited by TangoYankee (edited 11-02-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Crutches have a terrible habit of never being grown beyond. It's unfortunate but true.. Very often removing the crutch and allowing the person (or wargamer) to develop beyond what he or she felt comfortable with is the best thing for them. That's what we do in medicine when using conditioning and imitation during the rehabilitiation of burns and car crash victims. Remove the crutches and defences and teach them they CAN go beyond their self-imposed limits. A little food for though there IMO. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Official stance has not changed. We do not plan on putting in any sort of OB/status screen for the first release. Part of this is that to do so would most likely delay the game more than we would like it to. Beyond that, all bets are off. If we get enough feedback for its inclusion, and we figure out a way to do it UI and gameplay wise (i.e. being usefull, but not a crutch), the it might very well happen. But don't be looking for it any time soon Steve P.S. Sorry, got to close this thread up. Past the BBS' danger zone in terms of thread size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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