SOE 1939 (Allies) - Will vs Ash - AAR

[Strategiclayabout]

Thanks for the tech screens .

Nothing in AA tech for Soviets ? Remember those stukas of yours ruining tanks from last game ?

Just kidding, playing defense will help protect your units but you'll need AA at some point.

I suppose it depends how much Germany has invested in ground attack aircraft.

Praying with you for infantry tech to come !

[Will95]

It's on the to-do list

I know I need it, but I (think) just getting more boots on the ground is more important right now, particularly given the time (heading into winter, so troops ordered now should arrive well before Barbarossa and give me time to dig in).

Also, I'm not totally without AA- 2 units of actual AA guns have already been deployed, and I think there's more on the way iirc. AT guns and AA, that's what I'm all about!

[Will95]

Carriers revealed a significant build up of Italian troops around Tobruk this turn, could Mussolini be planning to test his mettle against the British forces? Luckily, we're ready. If left to our own devices however, the plan is to wait until Barbarossa has been committed to by German forces, which will mean it's just the British and the Italians- and that's a much fairer fight than the nastiness of 1940.

Furthermore, by delaying until the US intervenes, we can pull off the much more effective Operation Torch and hit North Africa from both sides at once. Making advances right now before the US is here to help us could be potentially disastrous, so we're playing defense for now. We can always fall back to El Alamein if we run into problems.

We started upgrading our British bombers and brought over another Canadian bomber, to a total of 3. Now upgraded, we can really start hammering the Axis economy!!

- Some questions about bombing:

* How much damage does bombing actually do to the side getting bombed (as in the turn-by-turn MPP loss rather than the little flash-up notification of 2 MPP lost or whatever)?

* What are the best targets for bombing, when the bombers aren't on the front line (as in, economy targets)?

[Will95]

The Germans have brought some fighters to North Africa- not good! However, that didn't stop our tactical bombers getting a hit on the Italian tanks just south of Tobruk. If the British can at least give a pretense that they have a stronger force there than they really do, it might just be enough to persuade Hitler to go all out in Russia instead.

On the plus side, the Soviets reached level 2 tanks, a great win so early on, and will help give us parity over the German armour. Now, if only we could get some infantry tech, we might make it through this war...

[Strategiclayabout]

- About bombing, the thing is when you reduce a target to 0 supply, it will grow back to full strength very slowly giving a cumulative effect.

- Say you have a 20 MPPs mine with 10 supply and reduce it to 0 your enemy will lose 20MPPs this turn, 18 the next, 16 the following (admitting your bombers don't bomb it to 0 again ).

- Add to that the industry tech modifier apply on your base MPPs so you'll kill more MPPs than you actually bomb.

- Better economic targets are:

1) own oil wells with railway to capital (base 30 MPPs/10 supply)

2) conquered oil wells with railway to own capital (base 24MPPs/8 supply)

3) own mines and capitals with railway to national capital (base 20 MPPs/10 supply)

4) conquered mines and capitals with railway to own capital (base 16MPPs/8 supply)

5) oil wells without railway to capital (base 15 MPPs/5 supply)

6) own cities with railway to capital (base 10 MPPs/10 supply)

7) mines without railway to capital (base 10 MPPs/5 supply)

8) cities without railway to capital (base 5 MPPs/5 supply)

- Better strategic targets are cities and ports:

1) you kill MPPs

2) units can't use that tile to operate below 5 supply

3) new units can't be deployed on or adjacent to that tile

4) enemy will need a HQ or another supply source nearby to have decent combat stats

- Keep an eye on enemy aerial cover because a bombing campaign can cost you a lot of MPPs if your bombers take too much damage !

[Will95]

Wow awesome, is that info displayed in game or do you just have an encyclopedic knowledge? :cool:

Brilliant info at any rate, I'll start knocking out those Ruhr valley oil wells!

Speaking of which, this turn....

Well, Lille was reduced to rubble out of my noobishness (also the weather was bad and it was the best available target)

In other news, some interesting (and/or scary) developments.

On the eastern front, German armies have moved up to the Russian border. Uh-oh. We aren't ready for Barbarossa yet- 1 more turn would give us enough time not to get totally blown away though, as infantry level 1 finally hit, at long last, at the end of this turn. I also need a turn to get extra HQ's down here to keep troops fighting fit. If we are given another turn, at least, before the Germans invade, we should be in an ok position- anything less and we will be in trouble.

Partially out of a need to draw troops and attention away from Russia and partially out of fear, I moved the British troops up to Tobruk...only to be pleasantly surprised by a bunch of weak, leaderless and half-strength Italian troops! The British army, along with the ANZAC corps and the tank group, have moved up to start putting the hurt on the Italians. If we can keep the Italian draining his MPPs into reinforcements in Africa, that means no tech- and even now, Mussolini has yet to fit his troops with the most basic of infantry equipment (level 1). We must strike while the iron is hot!

Out in the Atlantic, we discovered 2 u-boats raiding out trade lines. The cruiser that found them was badly hurt, but 2 destroyers moved in to do nice damage to the sub there.

British reached a new industry level at the end of this turn, which might finally get the MPP flowing a little looser to allow for more aggressive operations (see NA!).

[Will95]

Phew, Barbarossa hasn't quite started yet. However, despite the massive build up of German troops, Stalin stubbornly fails to heed British warnings of an impending invasion, citing some 2 year old non-aggression pact...

Luckily, this turn we were able to roll out the new and improved infantry weapons, and were relieved to see that the Germans are packing weapons of the same tech level, at least for now. The next few months will be crucial- I need to spot where he pushes hardest and reinforce. I will have to make some concessions, but without getting flanked- it's a balancing act. (also, just visible in the top right are the entrenchments at Minsk which we will fall back to when the pressure becomes too much to bear at Brest- we can shield a lot more units there than we can at the fortress, but we will try and give ground slowly)

Down in Africa, we destroyed an Italian army while the rest of Mussolini's forces retreat back past the fortress.

In Europe, the British bombing campaign began in earnest, blowing to smithereens one of the Ruhr valley mine complexes. It seems our bombers have caused something of a headache for Hitler, who is using his fighters to shield his industry- good good, that's 1 less unit on the eastern front!!

The Americans got another hit on Intel this turn, all the better for keeping Hitler frustrated.

[Strategiclayabout]

- You're welcome . Glad to see you're enjoying the bombing game ^^ .

- In one game I made the mistake to let bombers roam freely for some turns and it was a disaster, the drain on axis economy was enormous, never again ! So I'd say it's (bad) experience .

- By the way, one thing France can do before Germany invade is take the Saar mines if Nazis arn't cautious, it's difficult for starting armies low on movement because of zones of control and hill terrain but a corps can sneak in and even if destroyed it's worth the cost !

[Will95]

I think the bombing game is now my most favourite part of this game. That may or may not be because I've been getting brutalised all game long and this is the only way for me to get back at the bastard D:

I just worked out, if I can just knock out both Ruhr industries entirely, then that's 480 MPPs drained minimum, within 15 turns! And with 4 bombers, I can knock out both, then have a single bomber on 'keep-them-at-0-supply' duty then that's an awful lot of lost resources for the German player...

[Will95]

Ok, good and bad this turn.

First, the bad- we lost Malta. Over the past few months German and Italian bombers have been incessantly hitting the fortress until eventually this turn, combined with a German paratroop drop, we lost the island. Now the question I pose to you fine folks- is this _that_ bad? Also, bearing in mind that it did damage to the bombers with every attack, as the fortress was upgraded with level 1 AA, which, given it was hit about 5-6 times per turn and must've done a minimum of 1 strength damage each, would mean about 20-25 strength damage done for the German + Italians.

On the plus side, we continue to press Tobruk and destroyed another Italian army, before extending right into the center of the former Italian defensive line, striking the artillery there. With our own artillery now in range of the fortress, it should only be a matter of time unless German help arrives. That, of course, would not be such a bad thing, as it would mean less force for Barbarossa, as I'm sure I could effectively tie up quite a large German force with the units I have given the desert terrain and my defenses at El Alamein.

However, in the Med we lost 2 battleships and a carrier to a nasty surprise attack by the Italian navy. Churchill promises revenge, and sends more reinforcements to the Red Sea...

Our bombing campaign continues to do nasty damage to German industry, with both Ruhr mines knocked out in their entirety. We now turn our attentions to other German industry, where we hope the damage will begin to stack up...

[Strategiclayabout]

- Losing Malta is always bad but how bad it is depends on the situation in the Med. As long as you keep the Med open (Gibraltar and Suez) it's manageable.

- It's worse if Allies are already in a difficult situation, less important if you have Tobrouk as another road bump and italian fleet more or less under control.

[Will95]

Right, Barbarossa has begun. High Command immediately issued a ton of fighters and tanks to the front line, under-strength and un-upgraded...which were rapidly run over by the German Panzers. In the far north and far south two weak German and Hungarian thrusts respectively are pushing through Soviet territory, but in the center at the hardpoint of the Red Army defense, the Germans met stiff resistance. We destroyed a Panzer group and brought another to a single strength. Brest is being left as a speedbump while the rest of our forces retreat to Minsk to avoid being encircled.

Down in North Africa, we have surrounded Tobruk on all sides and now proceed to bombard it with our artillery. We should be able to take it down within 2 turns.

Back in Europe, both Ruhr mines have now been destroyed utterly. The battleship Bismark along with 2 accompanying subs attacking a cruiser, but we hit back, damaging one of the subs badly and destroying the battleship.

We are breaking new ground in production technology for the Americans- more and more research is going to gradually be pumped into this area so that over the 41-42 winter we can start building a large army to send to Europe. If and when Tobruk falls and the Barbarossa position has stabilised, I will show off some of my long term plans.

[Will95]

Ash and I had a long discussion on Skype today and came to the conclusion that (bear in mind you guys have missed a couple of turns not shown in the AAR) that although the game isn't past a forgone conclusion, I've made several categorical mistakes with the usage of the Russians which are going to lead to a pretty quick game, in all likelihood. We discussed a variety of things, like strategies for defending Russia, naval warfare, the defense of France, supply, bombings and a ton of various strategic stuff and, for myself at least, am now feeling a lot more comfortable with the scenario. Therefore, we're going to restart, from the same positions. I don't believe Ash is going to do an AAR for this one but I might, depending on if people want to see one or not, although it'll probably be quite 'informal' as it was here.

As with everything in SC we're constantly learning new stuff, but in particular was the way that I managed to defend Russia so poorly- ie leaving massive gaps in the north and south. The conclusion we came to was basically that rather than trying to hold the line at the geographical lines, it'd be much more important to fortify around important cities and supply/rail hubs. Any other thoughts would be appreciated, and thanks for reading!

[AshesFall]

Thanks for the game Will . It definetly is a learning experience every time with this game, which is a good thing!

The current situation is pretty well laid out in my AAR, what do you more experienced readers think about it? Is it an unwinnable/horrible situation for the allies? Very interested in thoughts and tips. It's very hard to judge the long term effects on the Soviets.

[Strategiclayabout]

- Yep there were some mistakes on USSR side but as usual I kept my mouth shut while you were playing except to provide "legitimate" data :

Fortifications

- Fortifications around Minsk are not a good idea because they can be flanked quite easily and Germans will arrive quickly with a good deal of power left.

- The main idea of fortifications is to force a costly frontal assault or an offensive delay by having the attacker shift units around it.

- Fortifications alone are still vulnerable, you need to pack every dfensive bonus you can to make it a toothbreaker.

- Usually that means building them in the back in narrow areas, to extend natural defensive positions.

- Another thing is building them far in the back gives you more time to build more fortifications and extend the lines or double them.

- It will also give you a good chance of having bad weather (meaning no axis air power) when panzers close in, increasing your defensive chances.

- Furthermore, try to build fortifications where you'll only need 3 sides (a front and two corners), the time gained with that alone can buy you one or two extra fortified tiles.

- Also put units in them long enough before enemy come close so they have time to fully entrench and back them with every possible support (artillery, air units, HQs, ships...) it's easier to protect those units behind fortifications !

- One thing that can seem strange: don't hesitate to park your tanks on fortifications or cities and use them as static defense, they will be able to demolish incoming units (especially infantry on clear tiles) while taking less losses, having good supply and bonuses against enemy tanks !

- That's also why in some areas it can be very interesting to build your fortifications on defensive terrain but in FRONT of rivers to maximize your counter-attack power and rotate tanks in fortifications while enemy units are sitting ducks on open tiles .

Key points

- There are various strategies to defend but there are some favorable points like Riga and its river, the Kiev-Crimea line, the Leningrad-Moscow line, Rostov and the Don, Caucasus mountains...

- Early on with Germans in full force and supply, it's just too hard to defend. You have to give ground and buy time with cheap units blocking supply points (corps and AT) with some armies to provide better defense at some key locations.

- Keep your tanks away with good HQ and supply, observe where panzers go, try to guess german main objectives for 41 and attack full force when nazi supply go down and gaps in the lines begin to open between army groups.

- You don't need to target panzers at all costs, if you have a good shot go for it but don't expose your own tanks if you can avoid it, prey on lesser axis units, they'll have to travel from the border to reach the front again, Germans will have less troops for anti-partisan duty and panzers will become more vulnerable with less infantry to cover their flanks !

[Will95]

A fountain of knowledge once again, Strategic. I think I might to play a game against you one of these days, just so I can learn a few of your tricks first hand!