Keeping units together and demo

[Rick]

Is there a clear method to make sure infantry and tanks stay together for mutual support, or are we going to have the problem of tanks rolling past the infantry that's supposed to be making sure that there's no panzerfausts in the woods ahead?

The other question: Are we going to have some idea how to play the game when you post the demo? I hate it when game companies say here's the demo, good luck figuring out how to use it. I don't think doing it that way is good marketing either. How is a potential customer supposed to decide if they want to buy a game or not when they have no idea what it does because they couldn't figure out how to do it?

I fully expect both answers to be yes, but I want to read more detail. Furthermore, this forum is one of the funnest things I can do so cheaply.

[Doug Beman]

Actually, Rick, I expect the answer to your first question to be "no." Keeping the troops together was as much the responsibility of the company commander as the company. He couldn't count on circumstances to permit infantry and armor to advance side-by-side regardless of conditions and without his supervision; too much can go wrong during movement that would force one element to go to ground and let the other wander about a bit on its own.

Imagine, if you will, a company of tanks and a company of infantry advancing along a road toward a town and the hill beyond. They arrive in the town together, and the infantry begin to secure the area, etc etc, while the tankers make off toward the hill to have a look 'round at what there might be. When the treadheads crest the hill and get their first peek into the valley beyond, they get jumped by a group of Panthers with panzer grenadier support.

A company commander can't expect that the infantry will just get right up from the chairs they're sitting on, put down the hot, fresh food they're eating, and leave the warm, dry houses they're sitting and eating in, and hustle off to put their necks on the line to bail out "those dumbass tankers." He has to jump in with the right orders to put things right.

'Course, this is just me talking out of the part of my body on which I'm sitting. Just MHO.

DjB

[Fionn]

Rick,

I'm certain that keeping infantry and tanks together etc will NOT be automated (unless the infantry are riding the tanks).

Half of your job as a combined arms commander in WW2 would have been keeping infantry and tanks together and mutually supportive... Removing that from the game would be to remove one of the biggest challenges you as a commander would have.

Knowing when to lead with tanks, when to lead with infantry and when to lead with half-tracks and being able to adapt your plans due to circumstances separated the good leaders from the dead leaders.

[Rick]

By your replies, I guess I stated myself poorly. Furthermore, I reread what I wrote and it reads like I expect you folks to be able to read my mind. I expect this kind of coordination to be one of the big issues.

I guess my question was when they're just mozying down a road, prior to any enemy contact or whatever, will it be fairly simple to keep them together then? Basically, will there be some way to make sure they go the same speed when advancing prior to any contact? If the tank naturally wants to boogie on down the road at 15mph while the infantry are dragging their feet at 3mph and the only way to keep this from happening is our constant baby-sitting, I think that I for one would be overwhelmed when the combat began.

If that kind of stuff didn't require work on our part once the fighting started, what fun would the game be?

[Ken Talley]

I noticed in one of the films of German infantry and a Panther followed by a Tiger moving along a road in woods (?) that movement appeared to be at the same rate.

My big interest is the AI's use of tanks and infantry in coordination. In SP2, there is absolutely no coordination between armor and infantry. Although I imagine that has got to be tricky to do. Hopefully it can be done.

[Doug Beman]

Yes, we did sort of misinterpret the nub of your gist, you see.

Yeah, I would assume that there are speed settings that are common for both infantry and vehicles (i.e. "normal walk" for infantry and "crawl" for vehicles; ~5 or 6 mph?)

DjB

ps the answer to your next question is, "Only if the walrus drives the zamboni at EXACTLY the right speed."

[Rick]

Like I said I reread my post and will admit that I was unclear.

I felt this question was necessary because making sure infantry and tanks went the same speed was laborious in Kampfgruppe, the only other simultaneous execution game I've played.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Hehe... Rick, *I* understood your original post One of the BIGGEST problems of simultaneous turn games, in the past, has been how hard it is to realistically keep stuff together. In an IGOUGO system it is FAR too easy. CM falls inbetween. It is easy to TRY and keep your stuff together (if you know what you are doing), but tough if you don't.

The first major aid for keeping stuff toether is the 60 second turn. Not a whole heck of a lot happens in 60 seconds that can't be fixed in the next 60 seconds. PROVIDED that you have a good plan and aren't caught at the wrong moment. Example... you are moving through some sparse tree cover with a platoon of soldiers in front of one tank. The soldiers hit the dirt because of some artillery. If you were leading the tank by a good distance, the tank will rumble along but won't really go much further than would be comfortable protection wise. So next turn comes, you give the tank a Pause order or perhaps cancel the orders altogether. Depends, but either will keep the infantry in front and the tank behind.

The other thing we have is that the standard MOVE speed is constant for EVERY unit. So if you tell a tank to "Move" and an infantry guy to "Move" they will both move the same speed. However, terrain and enemy fire can make either one move slower. So this has to be kept in mind.

Basically, you can keep your forces very well coordinated on a parade ground. In battle you have a good chance if you know what you are doing, but it won't be perfect. If you stink as a commander, your tanks are toast

Yes, we will have SOME kind of documentation with the demo. But it won't be more than instructions on the game's basics. Good enough to play with, but you won't have have a description about every little thing you will experience. I expect you are just looking for instructions on how to play, so I think you will be all set.

Steve

[Fionn]

Oops, sorry Rick I misinterpreted the post.

Looks like Steve gave you the full answer though above

[Doug Beman]

Rick, hope no ruffled feathers. Just trying to be funny.

I also remember the cohesion problems from my 6 months' experience with KG also. Didn't help that I was playing against a guy who was so friggin' brilliant that he could break down 2D stuff like KG into quantified 4 dimensional logic problems with hexadecimal operatives etc etc in his HEAD. He stomped me every time, including once when I, as late-war Russian force, annihilated EVERY one of his units, and still lost 'cause my JSIIIs were too slow to get to the VL before game's end.

[Rick]

Guys, no hard feelings.

Steve, the perfect answer, everything I wanted to know on the topic. Definitely didn't expect complete documentation on the demo, because know you must withold things from the demo so that we only get a partial game with it and must get the full version to play the whole thing. Just making sure we weren't going to be flying blind.