Lee Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I was wondering if the Stuka Ju-87G-1 and G-2 variants will be included in CM. These are very cool aircraft and I think they would be good candidates for inclusion in the German list of ground support aircraft available in CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 I'm not sure any Stuka units were on the Western Front. I would have to look. Even on the Eastern Front there were few units in service during this timeframe. And we all know how lame the Luftwaffe was on the Western Front, so even if included they wouldn't be seen all that often. Hehe... I fell silly making AAA vehicles for the Allies. All they are going to do is shoot up ground targets Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Weren't there a few cases of German close air support in this time frame? I seem to remember that at the Remagen (Spelling?) bridge the Germans used ME 262s and AR 234s. It's a popular subject for aviation art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 The Luftwaffe made a fairly substantial effort during the Battle of the Bulge as well. Bombing attacks were launched on Bastogne and also remember some attacks early in the battle near St Vith. I am not sure how the effort was directed though- what proportion of bombing raids/air superiority/CAS. If I remember correctly Goering stated that the Bulge was the death knell of the Luftwaffe (losses of around 1000 aircraft(?)). Overall though, the Luftwaffe's appearance at CM's level is pretty darn rare in France at this stage of the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Actually, for quite a while the ME262 was designated a ground-attack aircraft! Strange but true. Hitler believed this craft would be an equalizer for the hard-pressed military. DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 If the Luftwaffe already air superiority, it might not have been such a stupid idea. I imagine not many AAA mounts could track something that fast back then. Under the circumstances though, it was a waste of some amazing machinery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 "I fell silly making AAA vehicles for the Allies. All they are going to do is shoot up ground targets" Steve, By all accounts they proved to be very effective in this role especially in the Ardennes where they were instrumental in preventing quite a few artillery units from being overrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 The ME262 was a terrible ground attack plane. It couldn't take much of a bomb load (and it ruined performance IIRC) and moved too fast to really do much damage. Plus, unlike other ground attack craft, it wasn't armored for the job. The majority of fighters in the Bulge were on CAS, and crudloads were lost attacking the Allied airbases in Operation Bodenplatte (sp?). I don't think I have read of even one air to ground attack made by German ground attack planes (though I am sure some happened). Simon, oh so very true. The Allies should have just redesignated them as "Ground Support Vehicles" instead We only have a single barrel 20mm AA gun in the game right now (quad might actually be in, but haven't used it), and it can cause all sorts of Hell. It can plink Halftracks quite easily. Can't wait to get the Quad 20s on Halftracks. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 7, 1999 Author Share Posted September 7, 1999 Certainly the luftwaffe had suffered serious losses by the D-Day invasion due to the hordes of enemies they faced (fuel shortages didn't help, either). But surely they had some of their fighter-bombers and ground attack aircraft available on the western front to help support local counter attacks and also soften up any allied columns that were caught in the open. Any of you luftwaffe specialists know of stuka use on the western front from the time immediately following D-Day and/or later? [This message has been edited by Lee (edited 09-06-99).] [This message has been edited by Lee (edited 09-06-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Lee, Yes, there were German FB attacks on Allied lines. Most were done by FW 190s from what I understand. But I don't recall any CAS air attacks on Allied stuff in the Bulge, though I am sure it happend (BTW, in my above post I meant the majority CAP, not CAS). I nice chunk of Luftwaffe books, but all are Eastern Front. Well, I have one book that lists forces for all of the war, but this takes some digging to figure out what was what. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 quad 20mmm cannon are in the game already for the Germans . I tried them out vs a company-sized American attack nce. I had about 4 of them plus a platoon of infantry and a few HMGs.. By the time the Americans came anywhere near the firing envelope of the infantry 2/3rds of them were gone. quad 20mms are absolutely deadly against infantry in the open. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 Yeah well if Hitler never imposed the ban on jet proplusion/tech research and developement between 1942-44 , hey the Germans may have won the Battle of Britain, and probably would have had air superiority in the Eastern Front. CCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 7, 1999 Share Posted September 7, 1999 And if they hadn't lost their chrome and nickle resource areas then they could have plated the engines properly and not had them burn out every 2 hours or so... Still though people over-estimate the effectiveness of the Me 262 in combat. It was a GREAT bomber destroyer but it couldn't dogfight worth a damn.. IN other words it was great against B-17s etc but would have found it far more difficult to shoot down the more nimble Soviet bomber types since they weren't all that big on maintaining formations at all costs and did far more than their fair share of nap of the earth flying ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 8, 1999 Author Share Posted September 8, 1999 Well, the Me-262 was the sort of fighter that used boom and zoom tactics. Come in fast, lay down heavy fire and soar away to come around for another pass if need be. It wasn't agile enough to get into turning fights very often. The U.S. used the same sort of tacics in the pacific since our fighters couldn't turn with a Zero (then again, what could? ). Our fighters would try to make high speed firing passes on the Zero then pull away fast and come around again. Getting into turning fights with Zero's is known to be hazardous to one's health. So, the Me-262 is in a similar boat to aircraft like the F-4U Corsair. Which were at their best when hitting the enemy at high speed and avoiding close-in dogfights. The difference is that the Me-262's could do those firing passes at 100 MPH faster than an F-4U, plus those 30mm cannon are deadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 8, 1999 Share Posted September 8, 1999 Exactly right Lee. I'm very much a boom and zoom FW-190 driver in flight sims so I'm in full agreement with youall the way about those types of tactics (although I still sometimes get suckered into turning fights when I shouldn't (too aggressive I guess) )... I just think the Me 262 wouldn't have worked very well on the Eastern front. I suppose its biggest issue would have been the need for very long runways . There weren't many long concrete, flat runways on the Eastern Front (although I'm sure the Germans could have made a few for Me 262 squadrons. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 8, 1999 Share Posted September 8, 1999 Steve, I sincerely hope the US M15 (37mm+twin 50cal) and M16 (quad 50cal) are going to be in to even things up for the allies in the "Ground Support" stakes. CoolcolJ, I kind of think the timing of the BoB was a little before any jets could possibly have had an impact (just a bit!). Also the economics of jet production and resources required may have precluded the Germans from producing sufficient jets to have a real impact. The Brits also had an early jet engine design and pretty much ignored it like the Germans so any speculation about the 'what ifs' of German jet production work both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 9, 1999 Author Share Posted September 9, 1999 Oh come on, where are all the stuka fans? There has to be someone on this fine board that knows for sure whether or not stuka's were used on the western front any time after D-Day. Let us hear from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 9, 1999 Share Posted September 9, 1999 Simon, the M16 is certainly going to be in. The M15... dunno, but I suppose it could be. Lee, sorry chum, I think you are going to have to wait for the Eastern Front And in any case, CM abstracts the planes to some extent, so it isn't like you would really know that it was a Stuka or a FW190 swooping in. Only the weapons load would really tell you. Oh, and Lee, there is a VERY good reason why no Stukas were likely to be on the Western Front. They were sitting ducks for enemy fighters. Even on the Eastern Front, where there were plenty of gaps in air cover, this was a problem. On the Western Front they would have been chewed up in short order. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 09-09-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 9, 1999 Share Posted September 9, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>There has to be someone on this fine board that knows for sure whether or not stuka's were used on the western front any time after D-Day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> They weren't - and for good reason. Even the 400+ MPH Focke-Wulfs and Bf 109s (which did what little ground attacking there was) had a hard enough time evading the swarms of Allied fighters over the Western Front. A 200 MPH Stuka wouldn't last five minutes in the Unfriendly Skies. And Germany couldn't afford to waste pilots like that. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest titan Posted September 9, 1999 Share Posted September 9, 1999 Lets face it german airpower was pretty much a spent force by mid44 and what they had left was pretty much devoted to protecting there cities against the allied bombrs, good old herman promised 3,000 odd sorties on first day of bulge and only 325 where mangaged after that almost all air ops were assigned to air defence of the reich so very rarely should the germans get any aircraft at all as far as stuka goes at that stage i think they where given a back seat after the battle of britan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 10, 1999 Author Share Posted September 10, 1999 Well, just thought there might have been a few out there sneaking about on the western front. Darn, was looking forward to seeing what those 20mm and 37mm shells would do to allied armor. *sigh* I guess I'll have to wait for the eastern front to see that. At which time I will look forward to seeing every significantly different model of stuka (from a payload, cannon and/or protective armor standpoint) modeled. Look out russkie tanks! 8) [This message has been edited by Lee (edited 09-10-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 Yeah, Low and Slow on the Western front only got you Dead and Buried. There were plenty of Mustang or Thunderbolt (the original perpetual motion machine) drivers that would have had a good time toying with a Stuka. Lee, I really like the Stuka G also and I can't wait to hear the sirens of the earlier models too. Interestingly enough, I just read that the Hs-129 was used in France after the DDay landings (I previously thought that it was only deployed in Africa and Russia). ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 The HE 129 in France? First I have heard of it. There weren't too many of those suckers made either. After I get some sleep I might just look up some data on those puppies. If they did fly in France, it must have been only a handfull. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted September 10, 1999 Share Posted September 10, 1999 Well I was watching Secret Weapons of the 3rd Reich, (they have a web site- I'll post it up when I find it) and even before Germany started WW2, they had some guys with jet engines, but Hitler banned all research in this regard and others I might add. A lot of the Scientists and technicians were actually sent to the Eastern front, and served as soldiers. As you can imagine, there was a mad rush to find all the scientists and technicians when the ban was lifted! Some Ally dude in the program was interviewed, saying that the ALlies would had a hell of a harder time winning WW2 if this wasn't the case. I'll try to find that site here it is http//www.secretsofwar.com Awesome research section here - http://www.secretsofwar.com/html/research.html CCJ [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 09-10-99).] [This message has been edited by CoolColJ (edited 09-10-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted September 15, 1999 Author Share Posted September 15, 1999 Hey Steve, did you look up that info. on the Hs 129? If it was indeed used on the western front after D-Day, that would be a nice consolation prize in the ground attack area to have in CM on the German side. Sort of ease the pain of not having those cool Stuka G's included in CM1. And while they might have been a pretty rare sight, it would be historically accurate to include them if it can be determined that they were used on the western front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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