Canuck21

That's almost really what I have with this scenario. Actually, I've tried out the terrain trigger and it's working perfectly for what I want. That will be for the lead tank orders, then when he gets triggered, I'll use that to trigger the others. I think that will be exactly what I need, but so far, so good . I have used terrain triggers before and those I understand fine. I just have to coordinate a few things with it. Now, one question I could ask you here is, which takes precedence - a timed order (such as "go to 'action spot Y' after 05:00 and before 05:30) OR, a trigger order (there are bad guys over there, go to "action spot X" and shoot them)? Let's say the trigger order occurs at 04:59 and then of course, the time for the next order comes up. Which one will get used?

Nuts, I don't have that game. Nevertheless, I'll be picking your brain regardless . I'm working on Step 2 now that I have the units moving in an orderly manner solved (thanks to all the help I've had here!!), and I can easily see a very good application of exactly what you described above wrt the AI Triggers. I'll be using both types from the looks of it, and the AI Trigger function will be a really key feature in this set. I'll be back (where have I heard that before ?).

Oh wow, I think you're on to something here! I've seen those triggers as well, but also haven't used them. Still, this has some serious possibilities. Which module is "Bad Boys" in? I'd like to play it, then afterwards have a look at the AI plans if that's ok with you? Really interesting post here - thanks for this. This is getting better and better .

In my tests here, I've found the timing controls to be quite variable. In the first 10 tests I did, I had Tank A1 starting at 00:00 / 00:00 (Exit After / Start Before) and A2 starting at 00:30 / 01:00. In every case, both started at exactly the same time. I cannot tell you why. I checked that the tanks were, in fact, in separate groups and that they were A1 and A2, but still it didn't matter. Tank A3 did start after the 01:00 / 01:30 correctly. Go figure . NOW, @Combatintman, you just may have solved my quandary about Step 2 in my little plan . Triggers! I used them in "Night Moves" (coming to a "theatre" near you soon, I hope ) and they worked very effectively! That might just be the ticket for this one, as long as a trigger will intercept and replace the initial order set. We'll see! I'm optimistic (hey, I said nothing said here is going to waste ).

<LOL> That's because you're sane - something nobody has ever accused me of... ever ! No, being serious for a moment, that would be the sensible thing to do. However in my case, some of my problems are due to me being new to the system. I'm not sure what are my own shortcomings and lack of familiarity and how much is simply something the game just can't do as it stands. I've always been a problem solver and that coupled with my somewhat obsessive desire to learn as much and as fast as I can, means things like this are simply a challenge to be overcome to me. Truth is, while I don't know if I'll be able to make this particular concept ever actually work (see down), it is fun trying and who knows, it might end up revealing something or coming up with a concept that nobody has thought of before. Unlikely given the level of talent and experience here, but hey, sometimes it's the "new kid on the block" that doesn't have the preconceived ideas from years of experience that hits upon something new. You never know. In any event, I've learned a tremendous amount of all kinds of things related to how to work the AI in doing this, so far, and which will have applications in pretty much all the scenarios I come up with in the future, two of which I think are about ready for "prime time". So even if this concept doesn't pan out (and the issues I've had up until now are only Step 1 of 2 in this scenario), it will pay dividends down the road in all sorts of ways. I'm starting to look into ways I can get the scenarios I have got done "out there", so hopefully these hard learned lessons will pay some dividends for a good number of people here . You are right, as I found out, about timing, although it goes in 30s intervals, which is a bit long for what I need. However, that's definitely an option. In this case though, @RockinHarry hit the nail on the head for the timing thing (by turning tanks further down the line at an angle to start so the start time is delayed somewhat while they conduct their turns). I did a quick run last night using that technique and it worked perfectly. I still have some experimenting to do but the hardest part of this is over, and that will be very useful in all kinds of situations I can think of going forward. The one small "fly in the ointment" is that to get them to maintain a straight line (more or less, and it's pretty good in fact), you do have to use the "Dash" command, which has been suggested by @ASL Veteran (and @Glubokii Boy). In this scenario (which I guess I'm going to have to fully reveal because Step 2 in this is another conundrum completely as I'm finding out, but it will spoil the surprise for anyone reading this, sadly), they need to stop when they encounter the enemy. In my tests late last night, they did shoot back at the enemy, but as per the manual, they do try to continue on as much as possible, largely ignoring the fact that someone is trying to turn them into a heap of scrap metal. What I want them to do is stop when they come onto the enemy and fully engage them so you end up with a (hopefully) rather entertaining tank battle in open ground. However, because they aren't expecting to encounter anyone, and neither is the enemy as they too are on the move, there is no "fixed" enemy position, I can't really build in a stop to their dash across the map and switch to an all out assault ahead of time. I could do that of course, as the Computer AI isn't going to give anything away to the other side, but truth is, I can't say exactly when the meeting will occur. Anyway, I'll explain further once I get a bit more sorted out with Step 1 of this, but that's very, very close now. So, off for some more testing, although I do have some "real-world" (RW) stuff to attend to today, but at some point I'll come back with a map and full explanation of what I'm trying to do with all this. Regardless, this has been a real learning experience and everything everyone has contributed has helped me immensely (mostly for this scenario, but that will carry over into many other areas as well) so it's definitely not been in vain. I think, given this experience, I also need to get in touch with @BornGinger about his idea of overlays. I agree with @Combatintman that most AI Plans tend to be simple enough to not require it, but I think perhaps as this one evolves (and no doubt others upcoming), this sort of technique will prove invaluable. Were it not for RockinHarry's post here, I would definitely need his insights for that. No one can say there isn't a gold mine of intelligence and knowledge here!

Oh wow, looks like I have some more reading and testing to do ! Thanks very much, this IS what I'm trying to accomplish. I've at least not got them running into each other now so I am making progress. I have removed the roads completely and constricting terrain has few options in this context (this is a desert scenario) but everything else looks like it should work. This will have to be a job for tomorrow at this point, but I'm definitely encouraged. I have got the link you provided open in a new tab so will read through it as well. Many thanks for this!!

Oh man, this is REALLY helpful!! It won't work in this scenario because they have no idea there is any enemy out there (and neither does the other side). However, this will really help down the road. I had no idea you could add a facing dot until now, so that WILL be really helpful in this scenario as well as others. Very cool - thank you!!

Oh yeah!!! If brains were dynamite, these drivers wouldn't have enough to blow their noses with !! Ok @Glubokii Boy, these are all great points that help a lot. I've done just that now and also spread the tanks out a bit. I am using only a single square for each tank order, but per your suggestion, I'm putting the orders much closer together. I will try the dash next, but even on Advance it seems to be working very much better. I think we have the beginnings of something that's going to work. Many, many thanks!!

@kohlenklauSo far, all I have is a visit from some very nice people that want to give me a new coat and are insisting I wear it. I don't think much of their tailors though - the sleeves are way too long. They seem to have anticipated this because they have buckles on them to "shorten" them ! Sheesh!! Yes, I only have the one plan in (good thought!), and I have checked that the plan actually is for the side that I want to have it . Of course, I would *never* make a plan for the wrong side myself. I've heard others do, but I would never do that myself (and if you believe me, I have some really nice "waterfront" property to sell you ). @Glubokii Boy They can see them after they've got about 2/3rds the way across the map, and they will swing the turrets and shoot at them now. I've set the enemy to having a target arc so they won't shoot at my guys. Before I did that, my guys were getting creamed before they could do anything about it (shots were coming from the port rear quarter so they were sitting ducks). On the Stance settings, I've been experimenting with those. Probably for this scenario I'll go with Assault, given that it is a surprise for these guys to meet up and they wouldn't be expecting it, but at the same time I want them to engage in a tank battle. I have tried a couple of battles where I take one of the enemy tanks out after them and that does seem to get their attention a lot faster, so some of my testing results when not doing that, I'm not too worried about. I'll deal with that once I get the movement sorted out. So I am actually making progress. What I've found is that these guys make their own routes across the map. When I give them a "Go Here" command that is all the way across the map, they seem to take all kinds of different routes to get there, with lots of twists and turns in the process, much like what @Combatintman was saying above, but in between stops/order points. The trouble is, they are close enough to each other (they all have discrete end points but those are not that far apart) that they bump into each other almost the whole way across the map. It is almost comical to see. Slapstick comedy was never this good on TV! It's akin to watching 2 dingy's crash into each other in the middle of the ocean. This is what I was incorrectly referring to above when I suggested these guys were following old orders that I had removed. It's not that as much as just choosing their own routes, but exactly on what, I'm not sure because they are not in sight of the enemy when doing this. So the key here I think will be shorter and more frequent orders, although I'm not convinced even that will do it. What I don't like about that is that it means a lot of stopping and starting, which isn't too realistic for this scenario; and that's even with the Times set to all 0's. By the by, I have done as @ASL Veteran (and others I think) have suggested and have 1 tank per AI Group. Now I have tried the timing method as @benpark suggested, and there's something there I'm not quite understanding. I set the Setup for 00:30 / 01:00, but these guys move immediately once I hit the GO button. I thought they would wait for 30s to 1m before moving. Is that for the following order (as in when the get to the Order 2 stop, THEN they wait that time)? You are correct of course Ben, that would help prevent bunching, but there is a problem too with mixed tank types - some are faster and they are catching up and cutting off the slower tanks (I think I see the doctor coming with my meds that I started taking when I started doing all this ). If I can nail this down a bit, that may solve a lot of problems. Anyway, onwards and forwards (I hope). We'll stay with it. It may not come out as elegantly as I'd like, but I'll get *something* out of it . Thanks again for all the help .

Well, I seem to be getting more confused with each test I do. For example, I wiped out all the orders for 1 of the 2 tanks I am using to test things with. I then gave it 2 orders, one which took it a short distance, and the second order took it the rest of the way across the map. With the second tank, I gave it an initial wait time of 00:30 to 01:00 then did a similar orders pattern, with all the following order times of 00:00 and 00:00. The second tank (A2) started at the same time as the first (A1), which was immediately, and both started across the map. However, it looks like the orders from before were never wiped as they made several stops with turns as they made their way across the map. When I look at the next movement phase between turns, both tanks were showing yellow movement lines to the next orders point, which shouldn't be there. The movement order was for a Max Assault (not ignoring what @Glubokii Boy said above, but I'm testing to see why these guys aren't returning fire when getting shot at). Both tanks got shot at, neither returned fire or even turned to look at the enemy. They were a long way off admittedly, but still, the second tank passed right by the burning first tank without even looking around, although he did button up when he started getting shot at, but still continued on his merry way. It looks to me like while I deleted the previous orders then saved the scenario again, then restarted the battle, like the previous orders were still being followed. I confirmed the orders in the Editor and they were as I entered them, but they are definitely following the old orders pattern when testing it as a battle. This has happened repeatedly now, so there's something I'm missing. Any ideas?

@Glubokii Boy - actually what you are describing is exactly what I'm trying to get. I *would* rather the Infantry go down one side of the street only, or in the present case, the armour track across the desert in single file (initially) while on the road. That's the part I'm having trouble with and have pretty much given up on for this scenario. I may get it figured out for later, but we'll see. @Combatintman - That's a good point. This scenario is a bit different from others I've seen though, where it's a meeting engagement, and one that comes as a complete surprise to both. As such, I'm trying to get both sides in a "relaxed" formation as they move across the desert. Neither knows, or expects the other to be there as they are both returning from a battle and rather beat up. It's pure chance that they happen among each other when they do, and hopefully when they do, there's a lot of scrambling as all hell breaks loose. Now that's the premise. Whether I can pull it off or not is up for grabs . Anyway, that's why I'm trying to get them "formed up" in some sort of semi-disciplined formation as they each head to their home ports of call. It's entirely possible that what I'm trying to do, can't be done though. Still I'm going to work at it this morning and see what I can come up with.

Yeah, more than once I've had infantry run to a location under fire, drop down in cover, only to get up again while still being fired on to change face and move to the other side of the square. They tend to get somewhat dead as they do so . I'll see what I can do with these guys I guess. For what I'm trying to do, movement may be just one of a number of issues in regards to the AI. For H2H, it will work perfectly, I suspect . I do have each tank at the moment as a separate group, so hopefully that will help.

Rule book ???? They had one of those??? Ok, I think for this to work and based off what I'm seeing here, I'm going to modify my map first. That will be key to making this work. Then tomorrow I'll start back in with a new AI, again based from what I'm seeing here. I think that should fix several of my problems. No doubt I'll be back here tomorrow with more questions . Thanks again

@ASL Veteran Yup, I'm REEEEL good at that !!!! Once this gets figured out, their distance moved will actually not be that great before they encounter the enemy. At that point I'll have to figure out how to get them to shoot back (one of them did, once. That was about it for him though ). However, stepping stones. I'm still in Kindergarten with the AI yet, so all this is helping immensely. I've noted your recommendations and will work on this for sure. Just one question though - is there ever a time when you'd use a DASH command with a tank (ok, KIDDING!! <LOL>). Seriously though, this is good stuff - thank you! (PS - probably like most people here, I LOVED ASL! I'm sorry I lost track of that set - had the complete set at one time )

Great stuff - thank you people. We are making some progress, but as this is wide open territory, sticking to the roads is pretty much impossible it seems. That said, I'm not sure in retrospect that will matter in this scenario. I kind of wanted to keep it a surprise in case this gets released, but probably that's going to hinder getting this right. Basically it's a North Africa Scenario for 1943 between the Germans and the British. It's not meant to be an ambush per se (I sort of have it set that way for now to see how to get the defenders to engage, but that setup will not be present in the actual finished scenario), but a surprise encounter between the two forces. So given the terrain, the road is almost a moot point and putting up walls, etc. wouldn't be appropriate. I'm going to come back to it in a couple of hours as my head is hurting at the moment . I am getting there, but this part is a lot harder than I thought. I'll take it step by step based on what you folks have written. Many thanks!

@Glubokii Boy, I actually started out with orders for each turn in the road. Even though I painted in a fairly long order location (not sure the technical term for it but you paint in the position you want them to finish in - yellow paint), they did go there ok but all bunched up together. I used the standard "advance" order. @MikeyD, initially they were fairly close together (a tank length between them perhaps). At that time they were not in sight of the enemy and were not "expecting" an enemy attack (this will be a meeting engagement that will be a surprise to both sides). I think basically what you are both telling me is to make each tank a group and issue shorter distances for each order, if I'm reading this right. I'll give it a shot (no pun.. well, maybe just a little) and see what happens. That, I hope, will also clue them in to actually fight when something comes up on them. H2H this would be a pretty decent little scenario, which once it's done will likely be released with that option. Thanks a bunch people! Really appreciate it. I'll let you know...

Ok, next up is, I'm trying to build a scenario that uses mostly tanks (ignore the infantry for now in this question - at some point the reasons will become clear). I have 4 tanks going across an open area. There is a road but the area is so open, the road isn't of much assistance to them, although after a bit they seem to use it. Anyway, I'm trying to get them to stick to the road, and to go in a single column. All 4 are in the same group and the setup has them in single file in the setup zone. To try and get them to follow the road, I issue orders at each turn in the road, with the start/end times as 00:00. First issue is almost invariably the lead tank in the group at the start just sits there and everyone else tries to go around him. It doesn't seem to matter who I put up front, they always seem to be the last to start going. I've tried shuffling the order of them, spacing them further out, I even tried giving the driver a cup of very strong coffee to wake him up, but no go. So as a result, all the tanks get in each others' way and bunch up massively (two of them even got into a shoving match with each other - almost thought I was watching a hockey game for a moment ). The second issue is, I know getting units from A to B is not an exact science with the AI (as in, they won't follow a straight line as though you were giving them a MOVE order - they'll just get there any way they can), but is there a way I can get them to maintain a column and follow the road at all using the AI? Third issue is, the lead tank, a ways in, gets creamed by an enemy unit. Ok, it's kind of an ambush and that's not necessarily bad. However, the second tank comes up behind it, stops, then turns (placing his butt to the enemy shooting at them) to go around the tank but of course doesn't make it because suddenly a huge dose of Prep H won't even help his arse end (as in, he's on fire). This is then followed by the 4th tank with the same results. None of them seem to think that maybe it would be a good idea to look around and maybe, oh, I don't know, shoot back? Novel idea, I know, but at some point it might be one worth exploring. So, based on what you see here, any suggestions on how to program tanks in the AI? At some point I'd like to get to where there is this big tank battle in the open plains, which means both sides have to start shooting. It's much more "interesting" that way . Thanks again (I'll get it eventually, I promise ).

Well, you'll probably get as many different answers as there are people. I was in a similar dilemma a couple of weeks back, but I had the added advantage that I had previously owned most of the WWII titles here. So I figured the "Big Bundles" were a good bet, so went with CMBN. A half hour after that I decided that while the Italy campaign wasn't as big a deal to me, the Canadians played a really important role there, so I opted to get the bundle for CMFI as well (and the Rome... module was new to me). I figured I was done, but I had been reading a bit more of late on the Eastern Front, and realized that soon Fire & Rubble would be out with it's winter warfare (which I really enjoy, for whatever reason), but being of strong mind and weak wallet, I decided that as much as I wanted it, I would hold off. Which I did. For about 20 minutes... . It's really good . At that point I figured holding out on FB was a waste, so now I own all the WWII titles (yes, I got F&R as well ). Anyway, you see where I'm going with this. One thing I learned that really is helping with specific areas/setups/scenarios that I wanted to play but which may not have been made (yet) or available, is to get into designing. I picked up the map-making really quickly (with some help from some really good people here!) so now if I wanted to do a late desert scenario, I could by building a map and using the CMFI bundle. Taking that a step further, I'm hard at it learning how to make full scenarios and programming the AI for such (with a LOT of help from some really good people!!!). I'm getting closer to where I can start releasing them but I have a couple out for testing now that I need to get back before I am willing to foist anything on the poor, unsuspecting population here . However, I mention that because between the games and the ability to add almost anything into them, there isn't much you can't make up yourself, and down the road, hopefully share with the population at large. Thanks to the amazing programming of BF (gawd, this is really starting to sound sappy now, isn't it ) , if there's a particular area of interest and you're willing to put in the legwork, there's not much you can't do with this system. All you need are the games. Good luck with your decision, and no matter what you choose, it'll be hard to go wrong.

Thanks very much for this! That will really help. I've just done my first "real" scenario that could get released (we'll see how the full testing goes) and those plans were fairly basic, and were for the defenders only, thus it wasn't hard to keep track of things. However, when I get into them deeper, this could really help a lot. I have a lot of experience with Photoshop so this will be an easy process for me (and in fact, I sort of did what you described for my TacMap for this scenario). Thanks a bunch for this. Much appreciated .

Well, I have a "problem"! The Italians are giving me a run for the money so far . I let the game set up the Italians based on the new AI Setup zones and that worked out very well. Seems as though the programming did alright. The Tac AI is laying a beating on me at times though . It sure is a fun scenario so far though. I'll let you know how it comes out... .

Can't thank you guys enough!! I just remade the plan and setup zones with all the above in mind and let the AI place the units. It set up perfectly! As I said, it's sinking in, slowly but surely. Going to test the scenario out either tonight or tomorrow and see what happens. On the points about the setup zone sizes vs. the number of units, after reading your blurb above I tightened some up (for MG's for instance) and loosened others. We'll see if I have the mix right, but I think it's going to go a lot better now. I'll let you know . Many, many thanks again. Onwards and upwards (be back about 10 minutes after the scenario starts and all the Italians have rushed into the river and drowned. Might be a question or two (?) about that <hehehe>).

<LMAO> Ok, could I use 1 MAP Setup Zone for the entire scenario (broken up into 3 areas though) and still be ok with 9 AI Setup Zones within each of those map zones?

My God, you understood what I was asking ! You need help worse than I do !!! THAT is exactly what I was trying to solve. And, I'm pretty sure I do have 1 group spread across a couple of map zones. Ok, now I need to go in and do some editing. I'll do that and come back with the results or ask a couple more questions (is that the sound of a couple of people buying airline tickets to a deserted island I hear???). Thanks!!!!! Yep, I have a group spread over at least 2 and sometimes 3 map zones in several instances. Ok, off to fix that and then we'll see what happens. Man, you guys are life savers. Can't wait until I get this down so I can start firing these things out to the (poor, unsuspecting) members .

Oh, and here I thought I was setting precedence . Ok, I do have a bit of a question though as I think I misread something first time around. You're saying to assign the Setup AI Plan to one zone or the other. So does that mean I paint one AI Setup Zone over the whole area I'm spawning orders from (not sure I'm wording that very well)? Right now I have about 9 AI setup Zones over 3 Map Setup Zones. There are 9 Groups of units, each assigned to their own AI Zone, but (for instance), a platoon assigned as A2 is not setting up in AI Setup Zone 1 and 2 (I think I have that right, but maybe not). Maybe for me the real question is, are the AI Setup Zones that are made in a Plan dedicated to the group under which the zone is being painted for, or do they span all groups? In other words, are specific AI Setup Zones dedicated for a specific group? Jeez, I hope that doesn't come across to you as confusing as it sounds to me )!

Ahh, ok. That I never would have found on my own. I'll remake the setup and see how that goes. Thanks so much once again Ben! I'll let you know how it goes (or let you know which psychiatric institution they've sent me to, whichever comes first ).