DougPhresh
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Posts posted by DougPhresh
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I was asleep at the wheel for this, but as one of the lol "Indirect Fire-rs" on Meggitt's Indirect Fire Trainer, congratulations on a big get! It seemed like their guys had a hoot hanging out at Battle School, and I can tell you we loved being able to play around in the simulator all day. If the Brits are half as fun to be around as us Leafs, I hope you guys are having a good time, though I know how busy it must be.
I can definitely, definitely see how this kind of contract A) takes up a huge amount of your present workload B ) hopefully gives you some ideas you can take over to war-games and C ) might give you some financial security to be a little more adventurous with titles and modules.
lol I know from experience your NDAs must be a metre thick, but I'm curious if playing with the Brits have given you any ideas for how artillery systems might change in CM. Just general impressions, if that's something you feel up to discussing.
e: Obviously I won't get into it too deep on the forum, and by posting here and buying your games it can't come across my desk - but - I'd suggest reaching out to CADSI. Working with the Brits gives you a leg up and CACSC might be looking around for improved tools to use for some of their exercises.
ee: @MikeyD if there is a way to point you in the right direction for doors to knock on without causing trouble down the line, I'd be open to it, but I'm just putting this out there. You'd fit right in! We also have pictures of the Queen in our offices and have SNCOs with moustaches.
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I've posted about this a bunch ever since we were teased with another FI module a few Bones ago:
QuoteOur current plan for filling out Fortress Italy is the following. NOTE THAT THIS IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Nothing here is laid in stone yet.
- Gothic Line Module (that won't be the actual name for it) that pushes the timeline to the end of the war. Details on it are already present in the first post. Basically this module pushes the timeline to the end, and rounds out missing Commonwealth and German forces.
^ Rome To Victory
Quote- An Italian Forces Pack that adds a ton of Post-Armistice Italian forces to the Allies and Axis sides. Italian partisans, captured Italian equipment in use by Germans, actual Italian military forces operating under Allied and Axis sides, the works. This would be a pretty big Pack that will completely revolve around the Italians. I'm personally super excited for this pack, it will be a lot of fun to make and play.
- An Elite Forces Pack that includes such things as Commandos and 1st Special Service Force. This would be a pretty small Pack, and may just get rolled into something else. Details are murky at this point.
^ Remaining Fortress Italy Modules
I've tried to sew some of those posts together, I apologize for the dead links.
A few things:
Italy 1943-45
What I would gently suggest is a major pack for Fortress Italy filling out the Italian roster in Sicily, then moving on to add Partisans, RSI and Co-Belligerents.
This way all of the work needed to bring the Italians to North Africa is done in advance and the pack is at least making money in the meantime during the very long development time needed for maps, scenarios, campaigns and TOE and OOBs for the other nations.
All of that Italian content needs to be created anyway, why not put it in an existing product line rather than sit on it until the base game is ready for release?
Why Add Italians In Italy?
A few years ago where some bones came out for FI, there was discussion about possible roadmap.
iirc, a pack containing Commandos and partisans was mentioned as being a possibility after R2V, as well as adding the RSI, Italian Co-Belligerents and fleshing out the existing Italian roster to add dismounted Breda Model 35, Solothurn and Cannone da 90/53 as a module. Is this still possible?
I would gladly pay for a pack with partisans, commandos and goumiers and would certainly pay for a module expanding the Italians from '43-45
e: I had no idea that an Italian Co-Belligerent unit liberated Venice. They made pretty significant contributions to the Allied cause.
Catching Up To The Engine:
It's more that engine updates have left Italy behind. Italy has no AT bunkers, no AA, no flamethrowers not even tank hunter teams.
Now, I'm not sure what guns they had casemated on Sicily, or if those played any part beyond the first day, so I suppose that can be discounted.
On-Map AA would make a big difference. It would be a nice addition to scenarios where the Italians are defending a static position, and in QB both for fire support and to lessen the plastering by Allied air.
The Italians have both Pioneers and the specialized assault troops - Guastatori who had flamethrowers.
There are perfectly serviceable AA guns and AT rifles mounted on the AS.42 Sahariana. They would just need to be added in the dismounted role.
These are all small additions, more to bring Italy up to the engine standards, using much of what already exists in Fortress Italy and laying the foundations for the larger role Italy played in Africa.
Moving on from what we mostly already have:
Some of the Italian artillery in the 75mm - 105mm range would be nice to have on-map in Sicily, and crucial to have on-map in Africa. Italian Artillery was not only commonly used in the direct role (they had slow and inefficient management of indirect fires) but the Italian Artillerymen were almost uniquely courageous and competent. Field Guns were often the only component of entire Italian brigades that gave the British any trouble. They had some pretty good guns, although rare compared to museum pieces or French trophies.
The Italian Dual-Purpose AA/AT guns were also pretty good. Never as famous as the 88, they gave the allies trouble. The 90/53 is already in Fortress Italy in a SP mount.
Having a HMG would be nice, and the ballistics are already done because this is mounted in a SP mount in Fortress Italy as well.
The Parachute Division "Nembo" was present in Sicily. It would be a nice addition, but I think more importantly would lay the foundation for the "Folgore" which became famous in Africa. The best of the Italian infantry in Africa, Italian Paras were also the better units available to the RSI and Co-Belligerents.
Why Partisans in Fire and Rubble Make Revisiting Italy, and the Italian Civil War Possible
The Vehicle Pack and Battle Pack for Battle for Normandy were outstanding. What I like best is how the additions of each module and pack make it over to other titles. I think that was a really smart way to do things.
I wouldn't expect Steve to tinker away at partisans just for Fortress Italy, but the addition of partisans elsewhere helps lay the foundation for an Italian module or pack (43-45) for Fortress Italy. The way I see it a pack or module focusing on Italy would require four things: The Partisans, The Co-Belligerent Army, The RSI and the Royal Italian Army. Because of how complete Fortress Italy is due to the other titles, the work that remains to be done for an Italy pack/module is also what would be needed for Africa, or at least Tunisia.
With Soviet Partisans and Volkssturm coming with Fire and Rubble, partisans may not be as remote a possibility as it used to be. Most of the work is already being done by making partisans from scratch over in Red Thunder. Italian names and voice files are already in the Fortress Italy base game. Of course the exact organization, equipment and appearance of a partisan band in Milan would be different from one in Minsk. Luckily Stens and Brens are already in the game thanks to Gustav Line (Which is thanks to Battle For Normandy: Commonwealth Forces and that interconnected development strategy).
It's a smart way to use the work done for other titles. Allied and German equipment through the end of the war was done in Final Blitzkrieg and made it over to Fortress Italy with Rome to Victory (and the work bringing the Commonwealth to the end of the war in FI is now being used for FB). Equipment for British and Americans through the end of the war, plus the voice files, ranks and so on in the base game gets us most of the way to the Co-Belligerent Army.
A combination of the German equipment we have and the Italian Equipment already in the base game goes a long way towards the RSI. There would need to be a bit, maybe quite a bit of work done on ranks, uniforms, TOE and OOB there. Luckily that work wouldn't go to waste! Why? Because the RSI mostly used equipment and uniforms left over from the Royal Italian Army, plus some rare mid-war vehicles and equipment which could be a nice treat like the Strumtiger, Elefant and Jagdtiger (To clarify: Not that the RSI used those AFVs! Mostly Pz IIIs and IVs - which already exist in-game - Just that the P26/40 might be fun in the way those other rare AFVs are).
The field guns, AA, AT and so on needed for their TOE from 43-45, and to match the rest of the forces across titles would also complete the Royal Italian Army in Sicily.
With a change of tan uniforms for the grey, a complete Italian Army in Sicily gets you North Africa at least through 1943.
It's a good way to add more to an existing Base Game while laying the foundations for a new title.
Give The Herman Goering Division The Right Uniforms For Mainland Italy
In Fortress Italy, the troops of the Herman Goering Division display the correct white Waffenfarben in Fortress Italy, but in Gustav Line and Rome to Victory bear the green Kragenspiegel of the Field Divisions. Simply, the tropical uniform in Sicily is correct for the HG Division, but the temperate uniform for Italy and Northern Italy is, I would venture to guess, ported from Battle for Normandy or Red Thunder unmodified. The cuff title is also present in FI but disappears in the later modules.
This seems like a pretty quick fix - just a uniform option like Greatcoat/Camouflage/etc. that substitutes white collar badges for the green and adds cuff titles for Luftwaffe troops during the dates the HG was involved in the campaign. Call it "Herman Goering" or something in line with the Gebirgsjäger option added in Rome to Victory.
With Field Divisions making an appearance, will the HG Division finally get a second look? Their depiction in Sicily is great but once the fighting moves to Italy it’s fairly apparent that their uniforms are a copy-paste from CMBN. HG in mainland Italy often had cuff titles and wore SS Oakleaf camoflauge smocks. Additionally, their ranks were white and not green as in Field Divisions. This applies to both the unit skins and the unit information screen.
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Having taken the CAF Machine Gun course, I do think tripod mounted GMGs and MGs should be able to fire indirect in some situations. Yes, you do have to go out and put out aiming posts and have the guns sited in, but a C6/FN MAG/ M240 can fire indirect, absolutely.
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On 8/21/2020 at 3:56 AM, Bulletpoint said:
The only way I can see this happening if the shell was a partial dud, so that only a small portion of the filling actually exploded.. I think that at 20 feet distance, the explosive force of a 155mm shell itself would have been deadly, not to mention any splinters.
Some shells have poor bursting and fragmentation characteristics. The Italian Brixia Model 35 for example, was known to sometimes break into only a few large fragments. For a weapon with a small blast effect that relies on fragmentation to kill, that was obviously not good.
There have been some advancements in shell design to create an even burst pattern with fragments of the ideal size to cause the intended effect.
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In both Black Sea and Shock Force 2, unbuttoned BMP-3 passengers have their weapons on their backs and can no longer fire from the vehicle.
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To be honest, I would like if the map size could be increased enough for more battalion scale combat. There are lots of great small campaigns and scenarios, across all titles.
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On 8/15/2020 at 10:10 AM, Erwin said:
Nice example of how faded and dull are the uniforms even though they can't be that old or worn out. Sometime, our CM modded uniforms look a bit too bright and colorful.
The Canadians have the same problem. I don't think I was ever issued let alone deployed with uniform items that were their intended colour. Some of the CADPAT TW would turn into brown or olive, rather than simply fade. I imagine that is because of how different dyes break down, but the interesting thing was that it preserved the camouflaging qualities, and maybe even enhanced them since the helmet, vest, tunic and pants would have a variety of colour and brightness.
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Anything in a soft skin vehicle will definitely break from shell splinters. Subsystems on all vehicles that are not themselves protected by armour will also be damaged by splinters of sufficient size and energy.
There is room for improvement here, but artillery is a complicated business and a lot of people are shocked by the lethality of crew served weapons generally. If revisions are being considered, I'd suggest that it's worth taking the time to go over of all aspects of artillery. For example, and this is nitpicky, including HE delay fusing, and separating WP and base ejecting smoke.
Shock Force 2, might have HE delay if that is what "armor" is. I believe some smoke shells for some weapons systems are WP and some are base ejecting. The reason I think this is relevant is that in Shock Force 2, specifically when the campaign considers collateral damage and civilian casualties, WP should not be available during MOUT. It's a small thing but as an artilleryman, my brow wrinkles at NATO using WP in areas occupied by civilians.
Additionally, if marines are coming to the Black Sea module, I would suggest adding dedicated naval guns like the 76mm OTO Melara. Preferably those could be added to Shock Force 2 as a patch. Having Marines land supported by fire from M777's is a little baffling, unless they are firing from landing craft, as the Canadians did at Normandy, or lashed to the decks of their amphibious assault ships.
Crossposting from the Shock Force 2 Patch discussion
QuoteI served as an artilleryman on 109's and 777's. 155mm shells will ruin your day, even under armour and I think subsystems like optics and radios should be more damaged, but there is a reason why battery anti-armour drills put most of the emphasis on the battery anti-tank weapons and not direct fire from the guns themselves.
Direct fire with a howitzer is not easy. They're not dual purpose guns like the 25lbr, we don't have HEAT or sabot rounds, heck we have bagged charges. Direct fire on point targets is much more effective than in the days of Wellington, but the principle is the same, and since the Boer War, whatever we are directly fire on is much better at firing directly at us, which was the whole reason for the switch to indirect fire.
All of that to say, there are a lot of things on a tank that will break from shell splinters. Many of those things like optics and radios probably should be more easily damaged in Combat Mission. Some of those things like pioneer tools, spare parts and jerry cans are not relevant to the time frame of a scenario. Some other effects like damage to electronics, crew stress, possibly damage to welds and seating of parts, I can't really speak to.
For Shock Force 2, It would be nice if the legacy "Armor" fire mission was either clarified to be HE-delay, in which case all titles should have it, retooled to DPICM, or removed.
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In the campaign, Dutch engineers with grenade launchers also carry a second C7.
e: Also about the Dutch, CV 90 air busting when firing at buildings is infuriating considering how much of their campaign is MOUT. The CV 90s could also probably using some tweaking to better conserve ammunition. I'm not sure if their crews doctrinally fire single shots or small bursts, but I feel like in SF2 they are firing like they have a 25mm bushmaster instead of their larger, more capable weapon.
Finally, and someone could clarify Dutch doctrine for me, how are squads supposed to split to employ the FN MAG and AWSM-F? I ask because if they are supposed to peel off into two-man teams, that can't be done right now.
I served as an artilleryman on 109's and 777's. 155mm shells will ruin your day, even under armour and I think subsystems like optics and radios should be more damaged, but there is a reason why battery anti-armour drills put most of the emphasis on the battery anti-tank weapons and not direct fire from the guns themselves.
Direct fire with a howitzer is not easy. They're not dual purpose guns like the 25lbr, we don't have HEAT or sabot rounds, heck we have bagged charges. Direct fire on point targets is much more effective than in the days of Wellington, but the principle is the same, and since the Boer War, whatever we are directly fire on is much better at firing directly at us, which was the whole reason for the switch to indirect fire.
All of that to say, there are a lot of things on a tank that will break from shell splinters. Many of those things like optics and radios probably should be more easily damaged in Combat Mission. Some of those things like pioneer tools, spare parts and jerry cans are not relevant to the time frame of a scenario. Some other effects like damage to electronics, crew stress, possibly damage to welds and seating of parts, I can't really speak to.
For Shock Force 2, It would be nice if the legacy "Armor" fire mission was either clarified to be HE-delay, in which case all titles should have it, retooled to DPICM, or removed.
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I see that I had the wrong install location for the patch.
Gill behaviour is much improved. My mistake.
The BMP-3 behaviour is the same as reported upthread. Oh and at a certain distance, the smoke dischargers on the BMP-1P appear to be floating above the vehicle.
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So there is a way to have both HG infantry and Field Divisions on the mainland?
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It seems to be acting more like a bottom attack missile than a top attack. I'll take some screenshots if I catch it in the act again.
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BMP-3 seems to use airburst even against buildings and bunkers.
Unbuttoned BMP-3 air guards have their weapons slung on their backs, cannot fire from vehicle.
Gill behaviour is still extremely weird.
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Beautiful piece of kit. Still missing ADATs and Bisons though.
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I guess as a career artilleryman I should chip in. What I would say is that our OP detachments always attempted to call for fire well away from our own position and that of friendly forces. Final Protective Fire is usually planned when a position is established, and danger close calls for fire do happen. Usually those calls come from the maneuver elements and not our own OPs. The preference is always to call for fire before the enemy is on top of you.
Put another way, just as artillery conquers and infantry occupies, when I meet infantrymen from my tour who excitedly tell me about calling down 155mm fire 100m out from their own position, I always think that artillerymen would have placed fire on the enemy while they were 500m away.
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I've loved playing CM on Mac, but now that Shadow exists and I can stream a gaming PC through my Mac, I'm less worried about Apple's strange design decisions and more worried about convincing my SO that I should repurchase all the CM titles and modules.
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I find Soviet Doctrine endlessly fascinating. There have been many great posts here over the years, dating back to CMBB that I wish were condensed into a PDF. The various Osprey Elite books on tactics are good reads as well. I wish I could contribute more to this thread but I'm a little tied up right now. What I will say is that the Soviet military in 1944 was a formidable fighting machine and there is a great satisfaction to learning and implementing their doctrine and tactics. I'm eagerly awaiting Fire and Rubble so I can conduct mass pre-planned fires, attack limited objectives in echelon and skillfully (I hope) use the battalion support weapons to execute the mission.
There are many posters here that I could swear are professional military historians or went to staff college and I'm glad that they keep contributing.
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On 5/17/2020 at 3:48 AM, evilman222 said:
What's your source for the images/info? Seems like something I'd be interested in taking a look at just for the hell of it
Sorry for the delay. I used the Concord publications on British Shermans and British Armour in Sicily and Italy.
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In Fortress Italy, the troops of the Herman Goering Division display the correct white Waffenfarben in Fortress Italy, but in Gustav Line and Rome to Victory bear the green Kragenspiegel of the Field Divisions. Simply, the tropical uniform in Sicily is correct for the HG Division, but the temperate uniform for Italy and Northern Italy is, I would venture to guess, ported from Battle for Normandy or Red Thunder unmodified. The cuff title is also present in FI but disappears in the later modules.
This seems like a pretty quick fix - just a uniform option like Greatcoat/Camouflage/etc. that substitutes white collar badges for the green and adds cuff titles for Luftwaffe troops during the dates the HG was involved in the campaign. Call it "Herman Goering" or something in line with the Gebirgsjäger option added in Rome to Victory.
I have included sources below.
I think a simple swap of the collars would look a bit like this:
Compared to a Field Division Troop:
That's a quick fix and would be entirely satisfactory. However, if BF wants to go a step further, read on:
Working from these sources I have quickly put together some HG troops in M43 with Luftwaffe/Heer Smocks, Italian Camouflage Pants and the SS Oakleaf Smock.
Official support would obviously be easier to use, higher quality, and make sure that both Field Division and HG troops can be fielded.
With Rome To Victory, the elements of these uniforms all exist in the files already. It's just a matter of a more talented artist and researcher putting together Appearance options for Herman Goering / Herman Goering Greatcoat / Herman Goering Mixed Camo (Luftwaffe and Heer Splinter with some Italian?) / Herman Goering Oakleaf / Herman Goering Winter or whatever the options end up being.
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Unlimited points would go a long way. The points aren't even calculated the same across titles!
In some games, I can buy nearly a mechanized brigade, in others I can barely get a full tank battalion.
A unified standard of Platoon/Company/Battalion/Brigade/Unlimited across titles would go a long way IMO.
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You know this has generally been a pretty good community over the years, albeit one with a fair bit of Clean Wehrmacht apologia.
Sure, I can see the value Sicherungs units add, and while I disagree, I can see why some may want to see Feldgendarmerie. That inclusion has never extended to entertaining the idea that they were "just like" Commonwealth Provost Wing troops or American MPs. They weren't, and anyone who can open a book can see why.
I do not have a single kind word to say about the Waffen SS historically, but this is a wargame and they were unmistakably a major combat force. I can play Battle For Normandy and see why they were such ferocious opponents in the fight for the Carpiquet Airfield. Their massacre of Canadian prisoners there and elsewhere, to say nothing of the countless crimes of the Waffen SS as a whole are outside the scope of the game, and reasonably outside of discussion.
The idea of the Dirlewanger Brigade as "soldiers like any other" is absolutely sickening and reprehensible. There may not have been humanitarians on the Eastern Front, but one side waged an unprovoked genocidal war of extermination - and the other did not.
I don't want to see this thread locked, but I also don't want to read excuses for the war the Germans waged, only to see how BF is choosing to model it. To their credit, they have done a fantastic job balancing sensitivity with historicity and I expect they will do the same here. They are not in the business of morally exculpating mass murderers, just getting the colour of their tanks right, and they do it well. -
3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said:
Why would you wonder that at this point and time in the game's development?
I just picked up CMBN after having all the other titles and modules so I was curious since I wasn't following it during development.
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It would be really great to be able to get them all, especially since I'm not sure what iteration of CMmods I'm supposed to use and if everything made it over.
More accurate Red Army Infantry Organization for Scenario Designers
in CM2 Scenario and Mod Tips
Posted
I would love to see Fire and Rubble continue to get some attention (not nearly as much as Fortress Italy, but I digress).
Fingers crossed that we see the campaigns in the south - Romania, Budapest, Vienna, and also get to see Hungarians, Romanians (on both sides) and Czechs and Poles fighting with the Red Army. A Red Army update would pair nicely with that, IMO.