Glubokii Boy
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Posts posted by Glubokii Boy
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Something seems a bit strange here
...I did a little test with the russian troops in CMRT to try out some things that chuckdyke showed above...
It seems to me that the russians don't need any communications what so ever to be able to call for firesuppport from ON-MAP mortars....No radio link, no eye contact...no nothing...
As long as the mortar platoon HQ is close by the mortar units any HQ anywhere out of sight or out of comms can call for on-map firesupport.
The same does not apply to the germans...
Also testing this on IRON difficulty non of the friendly russian unit icons dissapear when selecting a particular unit....When playing the germans they do....
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6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:
After twenty years playing the game at least I know that the fire direction centre is always off the map. Whether you have mortars on the map or not. I posted the references from people who know what they are talking about. Now happy gaming the upper echelons of "Command and Control" usually is of the map. Where is the scenario with a dead flat map? Just post a scenario so we can analyze and demonstrate our findings. Your boss was not your boss for nothing. I am retired now but found the attrition of certain people useful. Still avoid it as much as you can.
From the CM 4.0 manual....
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I just realised that a small typo has been made in the text for pic 4 out of the first 7 up above...
the current text:
4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and are not within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ.
It should read:
4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and is NOW within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ.
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48 minutes ago, Erwin said:
The only other wrinkle in this mystery is that the Schwere Zug HQ does not show any command line between it and Werfer Gruppe HQ. Why is there no command line if they are in the same chain of command? My thought is that there is some sort of bug to do with the chain of command.
Non of the HQs provides a link to a lower level HQ it seems (try checking some other mid level HQs)...Only to HQs higher up the chain and to directly assigned units. In this situation the Werfer HQ is beneath the Schwere HQ in the chain of command...Therefor no link.
52 minutes ago, Erwin said:If the C2 buttons are all green and that means that all the units have C2, then why is it that none of the FO's or HQ's (that are not within visual range of the onmap mortars) can access the mortars?
The werfer HQ is in DISTANT visual contact with one of your radio equiped HQs...That is close enough to be 'in command' (green button) but NOT close enough to recieve or transmit accurate enough information to communicate a working firesupport request.
Also...It seems that the mortars immidiate HQ needs to be the one to share the information with the mortars...That is the Werfer HQ...If i understand one of your previous posts correct you had advanced the Werfer HQ forward to be used as a spotter....That will not work...They will need to stay with the mortars...
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1. Here all higher HQ are placed behind a TALL wall way up front.
2. As can be seen...The Werfer HQ is completally out of command with higher ups.
3. Yet...No problem what so ever to call for firesupport...Including hearing radio comms.
4. Target selected.
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23 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:
I rest my case on map mortars need communication with the fire direction centre which is off map. The HQ on the end of the map is in communication with the Fire Direction Centre ( I see his C2 Icon) The Werfer HQ sees his upper echelon in the distance. All their radio buttons are green so the fire mission goes ahead. The other two mortars are out of contact. Which I don't see the location. It is the way my references explains it.
What the set of pictures above demonstrates is that the Schwere HQ has to be within CLOSE visual distance to the Werfer HQ in order for the firesupport link to work...
It really doesn't have that much to do with the higher up HQs up front.
For the firesupport link to work the Werfer HQ needs to be included as it is the immidiate HQ to the mortar teams....If you remove the Werfer Hq from the link and replace it with the Schwere HQ the link will not be complete and the firesupport will not work....
What the series of pictures above shows is that when it comes to firesupport-missions ALL links has to be either within CLOSE visual distance or have a radio...Since the Werfer HQ does not have a radio it needs to be within CLOSE distance to the mortars and the Schwere HQ needs to be within CLOSE distance to the Werfer HQ...
As can be seen in the series of pictures above...If the Schwere HQ is not within CLOSE visual distance to Werfer HQ the possibility to call for firesupport is blocked by any other HQ other then the Werfer HQ.
Ones the Schwere Hq moves to within CLOSE visual distance to the Werfer HQ all other HQs can call for fire...
The Second test i did with having the Werfer HQ being able to call for fire even without having a radio was not made with this set-up...But a slightelly tweaked one where the Werfer HQ was indeed out of command by higher HQs...NO RADIO INVOLVED !!
Let me provide you with a few pictures....
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19 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:
No radio near the mortars no indirect fire, the mortars can only give direct fire. The reason you need a radio to communicate with the off map fire direction centre for indirect fire. Here is the guy who explains it all.
He is also involved with CM Professional.
I'm sorry...But that's just not true !!!!
In the test i run above everything was working perfectly...Just now i ran another test in witch i removed all other HQs other than the Werfer HQ (witch has no radios) out of command/sight...The Werfer HQ was perfectly able to call a firemission from the ON-MAP mortars....
You must be talking of OFF-MAP mortars only perhaps...
The radio communications you here are most likely justy for flavour...atleast in this situation....
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Sorry...here are the pictures directly...
1.
2
3
4
5
6
bang, bang
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I made a few pictures to demonstrate what MOS is saying with regard to the mortars....Everything is working as he describes...
In these series of pictures i have a simular setup to the scenario discussed in this thread...the mortars and the WERFER HQ deploy at the bottom...the 3 yellow(sand) lines are at a distance of 5, 10 and 15 action squares from the WERFER HQ.
The III/ Germania- and 9th company HQ are deployed up front and the SCHWERE HQ is initially deployed 15 actionsquares infront of the WERFER HQ...That is in DISTANT VISUAL contact.
1. The Werfer HQ is in DISTANT VISUAL contact with the Schwere HQ (15 actionsquares away).
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b1.bmp
2. The mortars have ALL GREEN communication dots.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b2.bmp
3. III/ Germania HQ up front can NOT call for fire despite the mortarteams showing ALL GREEN.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b3.bmp
4. The Schwere HQ has been withdrawn to a distance of 12 actionsquares from the Werfer HQ and are not within CLOSE VISUAL distance to that HQ.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b4.bmp
5. Ones again the mortars have ALL GREEN communication dots.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b5.bmp
6. Now the III/ Germania is perfectly able to call for firesupport from the ON-MAP mortars.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/i/glubokiiboy/b6.bmp
7. Bang, bang...
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27 minutes ago, Erwin said:
It is the Werfer Gruppe HQ that I moved far away (no visual contact) thinking that it could be used as a spotter as all the C2 buttons remain GREEN.
This is indeed strange...Is the werfer gruppe HQ out of visiual contact with all other HQs or only with the mortars ?
If it has no visual contact with any HQ it should indeed be out of command....as it has no radio.
31 minutes ago, Erwin said:If all C2 buttons are green (supposedly in C2 communication) it should not matter how far away Werfer Gruppe HQ is from the mortars as there is some sort of communication, yes?
When you say this...Do you have one of the mortar teams selected or some other unit ?
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26 minutes ago, Lille Fiskerby said:
The on-map mortars need a HQ with a radio. The mortar section HQ do not have a radio so you have keep the heavy platoon HQ close to the mortars. For me this has always been a dilemma because then the heavy platoon HQ cant follow the heavy machinegun section into battle. If you can put the mortar section HQ on a AFV with radio this also works. Then the heavy platoon HQ can follow the heavy machineguns.
If you keep the Werfer HQ where it starts...next to the mortars and also move the III/germania HQ next to the Werfer HQ then you will be able move ALL other HQ where you like...and ALL other HQs as well as the two FOs will be able to call for fire from those two on-map mortars.
Atleast this seems to be working perfectly fine in my small test...
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4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:
I can't see a radio unit next to the mortars.
All 3 HQs (Schwere, 9th Comp, III/Germania) below the mortars are radio equiped...
The werfer HQ (the mortars immidiate HQ) up front in the woods is not equiped with a radio. Thats why the link between the mortars and the Werfer HQ and the link between the Werfer HQ and Schwere HQ is broken...As indicated by the red dots in the picture.
This is not a picture to try and show a working set-up but rather a picture to show what Bulletpoint mentioned above does not seem to be fully correct...That is...the statement that replacing the mortars immidiate HQ with a higher HQ would provide GREEN dots in the communication link display.
The problem that Erwin is having is that in his situation ALL dots are indeed green but he still can't order a mortar barrage.
To get a working firesupport set-up in this situation as far as i can tell is to keep one of those 3 upper level HQs next to the mortars after returning the Werfer HQ to the mortar possition. This will allow the FOs as well i belive all other (or atleast most of the other HQs) to call for firesupport without being in visual distant from the mortars.
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32 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:
This question was raised before, and the conclusion was that fire missions can only be given through the mortars' immediate HQ.
If you remove their direct superiors, but move a higher level HQ close to the mortars, their green dot will light up, because they now have contact with superiors, but that will not allow fire missions.
That does not seem to be correct...
Here the Werfer HQ (immidiate HQ to the mortars) is moved out of command...All other HQs up the command chain is right next to the mortars...The command dots when clicking on one of the mortars correctly shows that the link between the mortars- and the link between the werfer HQ and the Schwere HQ is broken (red dot)...
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5 hours ago, Erwin said:
The Schwere Zug HQ was on the other side of the (very large) map, no visual or voice contact possible. If he was out of contact with someone in his chain of command, one or more of the C2 buttons should be red. Is that not so?
The Schwere HQ being out of visual range is not the whole story
Some of your other HQs (that is radio equiped) must be within visual distance of the werfer HQ and the mortars. these guys will 'link' the radio message they recieve from the Schwere HQ to the mortar section/ werfer HQ.
It's probaly the 9th company HQ or III/Germania HQ that is within visual range of the werfer HQ/mortars...
If you move these HQs also out of visual range of the Werfer HQ/mortars then the command dots will show (as it should) a red dot infront of the Schwere HQ when clicking on one of the mortars...indicating that the link between the werfer HQ and Schwere HQ is broken.
The way it seems to be working to me when the Schwere zug HQ is far up front is like this...
If you have either the 9th company HQ or Germania III HQ in distant visual contact with the werfer HQ then all command dots are green since those other HQs share the information they recieve from the Schwere HQ to the werfer HQ. Being at distant visual contact from the werfer HQ is to far away though for the mortars to be working as a fire support unit...The linking HQs will need to be within CLOSE visual distance to share the needed info they recieve via their radios for the mortars to be working as fire support.
5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:On map C2 your green radio buttons don't play a role.
This is not true...Not for ON-MAP mortars atleast...
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4 hours ago, Erwin said:
The question is why do all the C2 buttons show green and yet the mortars cannot be contacted?
I messed a bit with this...
As the Werfer HQ does not have a radio you will need to keep some other radio equiped unit in sight of the werfer HQ to share info comming over the radio (from the spotter)..
Even when having another HQ at DISTANT EYESIGHT distance the from the werfer HQ the command dots all showed green when clicking on the mortar units. Everyone was in command according to the dots....but as MOS mentioned it seems you have to be atleast within CLOSE visual to get the mortars to work as a firing unit.
after moving 'the linking' HQ to CLOSE VISUAL distance everyone could ask for mortar support...
Could this be your issiue perhaps ?
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Maybee the call for indirect fire does not use the chain of command when calling for fire...? the call goes direct from the calling unit to the mortars ?
If you place a radio jeep next to the mortar teams it works fine to use comp. HQs etc as far as i know...
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17 minutes ago, domfluff said:
but it's a narrow and single-minded point of view.
I'm not saying that its the only option to considder
but atleast for me it usually works better if i can have something like 3 units engaging an enemy shooter from different directions eventhough they may not be in the best covered terrain compared to having one guy engaging the enemy from good cover.
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1 hour ago, Flibby said:
but game wise I feel less hampered by sticking to physical cover when effectively the fire that I'm putting down is cover in and of itself if it is suppressing the enemy.
This is true imo...
Having more shooters and superior firepower compared to the defender is more important then the actual terrain they are in.
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1 hour ago, kohlenklau said:
That is their main focus. Best wishes to them.
Yeah...We all need to get paid somehow...
It's a bit sad though that CM seems to be slowely dying...
Newer games like Warno or Regiments doesn't even come close to what BFC provides with CM...
Hopefully CM3 is not just a dream
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Just now, kohlenklau said:
I would really enjoy making more.
I would to...but two guys (or a handful more
) does not make for a very productive community...The activities around here has gone from low to close to non existant...
If a possible buyer expects very few scenarios to be made he might not be all that intrested in a product without playable content...
Personally i would buy a CMBB unit roster pack this minute if it was released...even at double or tripple the cost of a new basegame....No problem at all...
But i fear the demand for such a product might not be all that high any more (if it ever was...)
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16 hours ago, kohlenklau said:
BFC COULD even make the same basic module just slightly tailored for each CM. High level of overlap. A CMRT version, a CMFI version and a CMBN version.
They could crank up the cost and give us all a good squeeze for our money. I see fans of the early war and I think many folks would buy all 3 of the modules so they could have their fun. IF sales warranted it, then a "Official Scenario Packs" could be sold to again squeeze the customer base who were inclined to buy them.
If someone writes an early war scenario for CMFI, then the scenario cannot be played unless the CM fan HAS that new module. right? Most of Charles's code work or parameters or whatever gets used 3 times for efficiency.
I tried to find my post in the bones thread but had no luck...
A few years ago i would have agreed with this suggestion....Today i'm not so sure that the community would be able to produce enough scenarios and campaigns to make such a product work.
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3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:
Can't we do this already when we rename a map? Also there are master maps which we can cut into smaller maps. An improvement is for example when we can use WW 2 maps in Black Sea or vice versa.
No we can not.
Today you can load a map into the editor and tweak/resize that map as you please. What you can not do is to load two different maps (or sections of maps) at the same time and combine them into a larger one.
Currently you can only work on ONE map at the time.
When i say i would like to be able to import premade templates into the map i'm not talking about loading entire maps but rather smaller sections of a map with specific terrainfeatures on them...maybe 10X10 actionsquares in size or 15X5 actionsquares and paste these sections onto the map i'm currently working on.
For example...
I want to design a map with a number of farms, a chuch and a small village.
Today you have to design each farm your self individually...placing maybe 6-8 buildings, fences, some trees and various flavoured objects. With a template system you would simply look in your template library and choose from 10-15 different farm templates (or however many you might have stored in the library). With one click you place that entire farm on YOUR map...rotate it as desired and finally make any tweaks you might feel is needed....add a building or two...remove a building if desired.
Do the same with the next farm.
Instead of designing a nice looking church with walls and a graveyard your self simply look in you library and chose from a number of church templates and click that into place on YOUR map.
Instead of designing an entire village all by your self...look in your library and chosse from a number of different village templates and combine them together on your map as you like....add a few extra buildings and other features as needed at various locations.
Your map will be finished 10 times faster then today...
When designing 100 % historically accurate maps this template feature might not be all that useful but when designing fictional or semi historical maps i think a feature like this would be most useful.
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One feature i really would like in a future mapeditor...one wich i belive could be added even to CM2 would be the ability to import (and export) map-templates when working on a map...
Designing a village map today for example with a number of detailed farms located around it takes more or less days for an average map designer.
Imagine if we could have a 'library' of templates that could easily be loaded into the editor while working on the map....A few templates with a village crossroad to chose from...a few templates with simple roads going through it....a few templates with different church buildings perhaps complete with graveyards etc....a bunch of different farm templates that could be added to the outskirts of the village.....different types of detailed forrest templates...etc, etc...
These templates should be placable, rotateable etc...
Add them to the map and tweak them the way you like...add and remove some of the details...
Designing a detailed village map with surrounding farms and forrests would be possible pretty much within an hour...
We here...the CM community could design and share these templetes for others to use...Very quickly we would have an impressive library of these templates i belive....making mapdesign very, very much faster...
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3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:
Which features do you want, is the question. I don't know what is CM2.5 or CM3. Some people want better graphics I really think the present graphics are functional. I need bigger maps and easier management at battalion level.
CM 2.5 is not really a thing. It was more my expression of a SLIGHTELLY UPDATED CM2 game...As compared to what i would like to see...A completally re-designed game for CM3...
The basic concept should obviously be kept fairly the same...It's a winner !!
But many apects of the current game engine could be improved on in major ways.
I will not list all the things i would like to see included. I have done that several times before and so have many others on this forum that have simular wishes...Those ideas are no secret to BFC.
After all CM2 was NOT a slightelly updated version of CM1...It included many major changes to the previous game and as such became an almost entirely new game...The basic concept was kept but other simularities with CM1 was fairly small.
Something simular is what i would like to see with CM3...Some big changes...If the cost of that is that CM3 will not be compatible with CM2 that is perfectly fine with me...IMPROVEMENTS is what i'm looking for....not compability.
To try to keep it fairly short...what i want:
- New AI programing...Something simular to the AI programing used in DCS (by Eagle Dynamics) but more tailored to ground combat instead of areial warfare would be very nice imo. It would improve 'the brainpower' of the AI many times over...and be a joy to work with and design scenarios.
- Some way to improve, speed up, map design.
- performance improvements
- Better graphics would be nice but is not crusial...improve the worst parts like zig, zagging roads etc.
C2 question
in Combat Mission - General Discussion
Posted
You are correct...I had the section HQ out of place when checking the germans in my last post...
You need to keep the section HQ with the mortars. The radio equiped platoon HQ next to the mortars will not be good enough if the section HQ is out of place....
I have not tested with a radio vehicle next to the mortars if the section HQ also needs to be in place close to the mortars or not...perhaps it will be enough with a radio vehicle in such a situation...
When using HQs as the RADIO close to the mortar teams then the section HQ needs to be part of the command chain atleast....It can't be out of contact...