TheHumanMage

Stalin lend lease didnt kick in for real untill late 42 early 43 Before that only 8 shipments had arrived which added very little to the balance During 1941 and 1942 the Soviets stod alone in production VS Axis production And the numbers I have posted are of only Germany to get full axis vs the Soviets you need to factor in Hungarian And Romanian production as well by the way both countries Gave around 1 million soldiers each towards the Soviets And even when you factor in lend lease which only kicked in for real during mid 1943 the combined effect is still many times less then German Production numbers

Only one source pick up any ww2 book with stats and figures and check out natural resource production Richard Overy's The dictators is avalible in most cities, but if you cant get that take any ww2 fact book that can have production numbers

RUNE Rune your numbers are great BUT do it for every month and for both sides and dont start in 1943! And you will see that some months the Luftwaffe had many more planes then the VVS because if the Soviets lose 6000 planes and the Axis only lose 1 thousand planes this means that the Axis have a lead by 5 thousand for the next month. You only look at one point in time and then forget to look at the point after Lets say I have 10k planes and you have 8k planes If I lose 6k planes then I have 4 k planes if you lose 1k planes then you have 7 k planes which means you outnumber me So if the Germans can replace their losses and the Soviets can not then the Germans have more planes. The Soviet airforce was wiped out in 1941 The axis had more planes because the Soviets were wiped out this is simple logic Now if the Soviets lost 6 k planes in 2 months then after those 2 months they would have 6 k planes less which would mean that the Axis outnumbered them! Zanadu And to Zanadu it is clear you know nothing about ww2 if you would go to a uni you would get a big F I told you about losses and natural resources the Nazies had many times more natural resources and Labour you seem to forget that also you forget total military dead for both sides! Zanadu your biggest problem is that you only know about operation barbarossa and ignore everything else. You must understand Zanadu that everything you belive to know is wrong, it is as simple as that Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million Total Euro Axis Dead on the eastern front 5.5 million Total Soviet Casulties 1941 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million dead 1941 Total Axis DEAD 1941 500k Total Axis DEAD 1942-45 - 5 million (5.5-0.5) Total Soviet DEAD 1942-45 - 4.1 million (8.6-4.5) The Soviet doctrine became equall to the Germans during 43 and superior during late 44. You know absolutley ZERO of what happened after 1941 ZANADU And the AXIS did have superior number of solider untill 1943 this part is the biggest part which your brain cant process Say after me : The Axis had more soliders then the Soviets untill mid 1943. Zanadu you cant understand that if you lose 6 million Soldiers in 6 months and you enemy only losses 500k then there is no chans in hell that you can match his numbers for some time. Just look it up! That is your biggest problem you dont look anything up and claim alot of BS Zanadu look up the numbers And calling a British professor Wrong is just plain stupid he didnt become a professor because he knows nothing. [ September 28, 2006, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

Ofcurse I have he said 6000 VVS in jan 44 vs 1500 Luftwaffe But he hasent replied on aug 1941 to aug 1943 for every month Runeis stuck in 1944 he needs a time warp bubble to go back

It is this bull**** about the Soviets being "Numerous" which is complete BS, the Soviets had less natural resources 5 times less then the Germans But built more things The Germans chose to build high cost items and the Soviets chose to build low cost items Then the conclusion all you guys do is that the germans were better because they managed to inflict a bit more casulties with their many times more expensive items. But what you fail to see is that they did not manage to inflict as many casulties compare to how much was spent on each item The Germans wasted resources and Soviets did not Which is complete BS. The germans had 5 times more natural resources and built things many times more expensive the the Soviets.

How have I been proven wrong it is you who have been proven wrong Who had more resources? Who had a greater number of labour? And how Have I been proven wrong and where No where Again the Axis had 5 times as much natural resources you do not coment on this because you cant and then you say I have been proven wrong when fact is fact that the axis had more reousrces So please infome me who I am wrong when I say that the Axis had 5 times as much natural resources The only thing here that is pathetic is your understanding of ww2 and your draging the good battlefront name through the mud I post natural resources and what do you do call me pathetic and proven wrong I post pure logic If you build something that is 10 times as expensive then it must also be 10 times as good otherwise it is a waste of resources And what do you do call me proven wrong and call me pathetic The only one here proven wrong is you The only one pathetic here is you who refuses to form any coherent answer and just calls people patheitc now that, if anything, is pathetic Got that Sixxkiller?

Rune I dont understand any of the numbers except the ones at the very end which are of built aircraft per year Rune the Soviets built 25k planes during 1942 so they could not have had 25k planes deployed at the front during jan 1942! Rune on the first of october 1941 over Moscow the VVS had 677 planes and the Luftwaffe had 950 planes, so the VVS could not have 25K planes deployed during jan 42! Now please if you have the numbers please post deployed aircraft during each month, not built aircraft per year. I am not intrested in BUILT but DEPLOYED aircraft. Fill in the blanks The VVS had BLANK planes deployed in aug 1941, in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on The luftwaffe had BLANK planes deployed in aug 41 in oct 41 in nov 41 in dec 41 and so on

You seem to miss the fact that those are not my words BUT THE BRITiSH PROFESSOR Richard Overy WHO EXPLAINS WHY YOU ARE WRONG. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml No Soviet tactics were not wasteful right up untill the end of the war as I said before and as you ignore Total Soviet Military DEAD 8.6 million Total EURO Axis Military DEAD on the Eastern Front 5.5 million Soviet Casulties first 6 months of the war 3 million dead 3 million captured 56% of all captured died = 4.5 million DEAD during the first 6 months Total Euro Axis dead during the first 6 months 500k 8.6 million minus 4.5 million = 4,1 million DEAD 1942-45 5.5 million DEAD minus 500k = 5 million DEAD 1942-45 The numbers Zandu prove you wrong And Again you ignore the fact that the Germans had 5 times as much natural resources and twice the number of labour First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000 [ September 27, 2006, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

What is geting old is that you cant understand that the Soviets who had less natural resources were able to produce more items because they (the Soviets) chose to build low cost items The axis had more resources 5 times as much The axis had more labour 2 times as much The axis had more soldeirs untill 1943 then the soviets deployed at any given time

Ok ALL excpet iplaygames2

Indeed

Correction AFTER aug 43 the VVS was bigger NOT during winter 42-43 winter 41-42 over Leningrad. Inigo Montoya IS WRONG the Soviets were not numerous this is WRONG. And sooner or later every will come around to this fact and see that Inigo Montoya has been wrong in everything Inigo Montoya has ever done in its whole life and everything that Inigo Montoya will do Or as Prof Overy said http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml The idea that the USSR had limitless manpower, despite its heavy losses, is inadequate as an answer. Germany and her allies also possessed a large population, and added to it the peoples of the captured Soviet areas - men and women who were forced to work for the German army or were shipped back to work in the Reich. Soviet armies were always desperately short of men. Above all, Soviet tactics in 1941-2 were extremely wasteful of manpower. If the Red Army had continued to fight the same way, it would simply have sustained escalating losses for little gain. Nor did the USSR enjoy an advantage in economic resources. After the German attack, Soviet steel production fell to eight million tons in 1942, while German production was 28 million tons. In the same year, Soviet coal output was 75 million tons, while German output was 317 million. The USSR nevertheless out-produced Germany in the quantity (though seldom in the quality) of most major weapons, from this much smaller industrial base.

Why are you so fucused on 44 I am intrested in other numbers forget about 1944 please post numbers of avlaible deployed air craft for each month during 1941-1944 Stop focusing on Leningrad 44 I am not intrested in that we have already established that the VVS was bigger in Jan 1944 now please Focus on Leningrad 41-42 By how much did the Luftwaffe outnumber the VVS over Leningrad 41-42 and 42-43? can you answer that? Can you please post numbers of deployed aircraft for both sides during each month of the war so that it can be possible to see when the turn in numbers happened. I understand what you say but Why are you so focused on 44 we have alread STOP FOCUSING ON LENINGRAD 44 WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT THE VVS WAS BIGGER NOW PLEASE TELL THE NUMBERS FOR THE MONTHS BEFORE THAT.

Yes they were not numerous this has been proven by fact. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml It is the history of the losers that has been told but fact is fact the Germans outnumberd the Soviets untill 1943 this is fact do you understand it is you who are ignorant who refuses to understand this. It were the Axis who had numerous vastly times more natural resources but failed to match Soviet production this you ignore and choose not remark upon because it does not fit your ant theory For example By Richard Over when he wrote to for the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/soviet_german_war_01.shtml The idea that the USSR had limitless manpower, despite its heavy losses, is inadequate as an answer. Germany and her allies also possessed a large population, and added to it the peoples of the captured Soviet areas - men and women who were forced to work for the German army or were shipped back to work in the Reich. Soviet armies were always desperately short of men. Nor did the USSR enjoy an advantage in economic resources. After the German attack, Soviet steel production fell to eight million tons in 1942, while German production was 28 million tons. In the same year, Soviet coal output was 75 million tons, while German output was 317 million. The USSR nevertheless out-produced Germany in the quantity (though seldom in the quality) of most major weapons, from this much smaller industrial base You can not argue with this so ofcurse you call me ignorant when it is you who are ignorant. You are the one incapable of admitting you are wrong on anything so you are not worth my time. And now when I have proven that you are wrong you run away and cry. You ignore what Prof Overy says because it does not Fit your ant thoery you can not argue with it so ofcurse you will not argue at all because this above all else proves that you have been wrong in everything you have ever done in your life and everything that you will ever do. [ September 27, 2006, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

The problem you all seem to have is that non of you can understand this : The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources Now the problem that sixxkiller is that he then compares losses between planes and says ooooo but the Luftwaffe inlicted more casulties therefore the pilots must be better trained The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources If I am driveing a car that costs 10 times less then another person and I can keep out with that person but still fall a bit behind that does not MAKE him a better driver it is just because his car cost 10 times more! The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources You can not compare a formula 1 car with a beat up pinto but this is exactly what Sixxkiller is doing The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources Sixxkiller can not understand that there comes a time and a place when it is better to build a new item then contiune to improve an item The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a palane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources Sooner or later it become more economicall to just build a new one then to improve The Soviets understod this and that is why even though they had much less natural resources and much smaller labour force were able to build more items. The German planes cost up to 10 times as much to build as the Soviet planes If a plane costs 10 times as more to build then it should inflict 10 times as many casulties otherwise it is a waste of resources

Inigo Montoya Stop puting words in my mouth by defacto i dont agree with anything you said No the leningrad 1942 is not pefectly fine because were is the mention that the Lufftwaffe was 3 times bigger then the VVS And vastly nummericaly outnumered the VVS And to asume that German pilots were better is wrong when fact is fact even though the Luftwaffe outnumered the VVS by 3 to 1 over Leningrad Losses are comparable So when the VVS outnumbers the Luftwaffe and the Luftwaffe is crushed then it is only because of Soviet ant numbers but when the Luftwaffe outnumbers the Soviets 3 to 1 and fails to inflict more then equall losses then there is no mention of Soviet skill The whole text is geard wrong because it plays on history as told by losers of the soviet ant theory But fact is fact the Germans had more Nataurla resources and Labour and what ever shortages they suffered was still less the the Soviets. The whole text just plays on that the only reason why the Germans lost was because it is winter minus 50 C every day in "russia" and that the "russians" only one because they were able to send in billions of men Vs thousands of Germans. The germans were pushed out of "russia" in 1943 and out of the Soviet Union in 44 And Sixxkiller No the Germans did not have better pilots but did have some beter planes but this was just because German Natural resources outnumbers the Soviets by 5 to 1! Do you see that the Axis had mroe then 5 times aluminium then the Soviets do you see that? Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

Inigo Montoya You combine all winters into one winter, If you continue to think the exact things happened during every winter then you are the retard I will say it again for the millionth time Winter 1941-42 the Axis were not prepard do you understand this can your brain process this One year later they were prepard 2 years later they were prepard 3 years later they were prepard do you understand this or cant your brain process that after 2.5 years of war upgrades were made. Sixxkiller i said Zandu was 100% wrong you cant even read. Sixxkiller talk to rune he can explain that the LLuftwaffe during aug 1941 to aug 1943 vastly outnumbered the VVS in avalible deployed aircraft. Stalin: number of planes during battle of moscow as of october 1 Luftwaffe 950 VVS 667 Luftwaffe outnumbers the Soviets by 50% "Moscow Encyclopedia, ed. Great Russian Encyclopedia, Moscow, 1997, entry "Battle of Moscow"" You dont, like every else, seem to understand that the Red Airforce was alsmot completly wiped out during 1941 and that the Luftwaffe was not! [ September 27, 2006, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

RUNE POST AIRCRAFT DEPLOYED FOR EACH MONT How many Aiircraft were deployed in aug 1941 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42 And please confirm that you understand the question Can you please post deployed aircraft for both sides for every month of the year And not jump to 1944 You didnt even post any tables just table 1 with no numbers And I know that the Germans outnumbered the VVS vastly during aug 1941 to aug 1943 do you confirm that you have understod this sentance? And please confirm that you understand the question And the were no "russians" since there was no Russia It was the Soviet Union can you say Soviet Union? S O V I E T S Yupp Zandu Stalin wanted to avoid war untill he was ready but you still belive that the Soviets only one because of numbers and since this is bull**** there is no point in trying to explain anything to you

"By this time, the Soviet pilots were getting more numerous" During winter 42-43 the Luftwaffe still heavily outnumbered the VVS The Wehrmacht was suffering from shortages and the bitter elements WRONG! The Wermacht during 42-43 was very very very very very prepard for winter they had gone to the HARD school the last year and did not make the same mistake twice The Wermacht still had many times more men and material AVALIBLE to them and many times more FOOD so any shortages they suffered are still less then the Soviets since the Soviets were low on everything except death "but also the unforgiving winter with equipment that wasn’t designed for such harsh conditions. " WRONG Upgrades and adoptations had been made by winter 43-44 many new planes have been designed and produced the winter played ZERO part it affected the Soviets more then it did the Germans "while still superior in pilot skill and better quality aircraft" Also wrong by winter 43-44 The Soviets had equall to or better pilots and equallt to or better planes There was no RUSSIA there was only the Soviet Union, Russia was one out of 15 Soviet republics

You are jumping to jan 1944 what about aug 1941 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42 march 42 and so on you jump to jan 44 what about all the other months? If you have done the reasearch then please post numbers of aircraft for every month for both sides and not just jump from june 1941 to jan 44

No, again you miss everything I have said Read exactly what I have said I will now ctrl c ctrl v what I have said before since you have forgoten it And on a side note the Luftwaffe was bigger then the Red air force during 1941 and during 1942 and during 1943 am not certain when the numbers changed hand and am not certain if the Luftwaffe had more planes in the air during Leningrad 1943-44 But in no case was the VVS numerically vast supperior to the Luftwaffe over Leningrad 43-44 And to asume that after 2.5 years no upgrades what so ever were made to any equipment is just wrong First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000

They were not allies you ignorance is shown yet again Non agression pact does not make you allies Just because I choose not to kill you does not make you my friend A non agression pact is not a pact of friendship You ignore everything I type you wrote that the Soviets only won because of numbers I proved this wrong so you ignore it I proved that the Axis had more resources and labour You ignore that as well I proved the axis had a great amount of labour you ignore that You ignore the war during 1941 1942 1943 until aug you ignore everything that does not fit your ant theory Fact is fact numbers are numbers Total Soviet military DEAD 8.6 million total axis military dead 5.5 million BUT the Soviets lost 6 million men during the first 6 months 3 million dead 3 million captured half of those would die (total soviet POW 5.6 million out of which 56 would die) compared to around 400k out of 3 million German POW So 8,6-million - 4.5 million = 4 million DEAD between 1942-1945 Axis losses DEAD during the first 6 months around 500k 5,5 million minus 500k= 5 million DEAD between 1942-1945 The Axis outnumbered the Soviets until aug 143 when it came to men and material this you ignore because it does not fit your ant theory you ignore production numbers which i bet I will have to repost yet again for the millionth time As I have said I am looking for avalible aircraft numbers for each month during the war and unlike you I do not pick and choose what years to jump from but I am looking for every month You say the soviets had more resources I proved this wrong You say the Soviets ran the Germans down because the Soviets had limtless manpower that is just rediculus since the Axis population was about the same as the Soviets untill the Soviets started liberating their areas. Which happened around aug 1943 [ September 26, 2006, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

You pick and choose the parts you want you skip over 1941 you skip over 1942 you skip over vast amounts of information you who have the abillity to call the people who made CMBB but actively choose not to So I will say it again The Axis had more natural resources up to 5 times more then the Soviets except oil The axis had a great number of labour The axis out numbered the Soviets untill aug 1943 when it comes to men When It comes to AVALIBLE aircraft the change happened during 1944 so the text you use for leningrad campaign during winter 1942 -43 is 100% wrong the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets by between 3-5 to 1

READ what I have typed You are wrong when you say that the Soviets ran over the axis like ants with supperior numbers this is 100% wrong and even battlefront proves you wrong http://www.battlefront.com/products/books/nafziger/sovietarmorintro.html The Axis hade more resources then the Soviets throught the whole war confirm that you have scrolled up and looked at the numbers and understand this The axis had more soldiers more tanks more planes more small arms more bullets more artillery avalible to them during aug 1941 to aug 1943 this you ignore confirm that you understand this You skip over 1941 you skip over 1942 who out numberd who from august 1941- aug 1943? [ September 26, 2006, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]

You are mising the big part Yes the Soviets produced more planes but they started from a low number both sides didnt start from 0 The red air force was almost completly wiped out during 1941 During 1941 from August untill 1943 december the Luftwaffe outnumbered the Soviets at any give time on th eastern front Yes the Soviets produced more but they started from a lower number and lost more And the VVS losses exceded Axis losses so the axis had more planes avalible at any given time untill 1944 And as I have posted before production numbers of raw materials and labour First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000 Look at the numbers and you will see that Germany had MORE then the Soviets throught the whole war And you guys jump from 1941 to 1944 and skipp 42 and 43 During 1942 the Luftwaffe outnumberd the Soviets atleast 3-5 to one during 43 atleast 3-2 to one And Sixkiller I told you the numbers before you seem to ignore them and you seem to ignore logic as well The Soviets started from a much lower number the axis had a greater supply of raw materials except oil. Soviet losses early in the war exceded Axis losses which added to Axis numerical supperiority. Dont skip over 1942 and 1943 and go directly from june 1941 to 1944 Dont ignore labour numbers Sixxkiller Dont ignore resource numbers Sixxkiller And I am not looking after produced aircraft I know those numbers I am looking for avalible air craft How many were avalible to both sides in june 1941 july 41 aug 41 oct 41 nov 41 dec 41 jan 42 feb 42 march 42 and so on and so forth If you lose more planes you will have less planes avalible if you start from a lower number you will have less planes avalible All you guys skip over those part just as you ignore production numbers of natural resources. Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the Axis had a great number of natural resources except oil and a great number of labour then the Soviets I hate haveing to retype the numbers every single time just so that you can ignore them every single time Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the red airforce was alsmot completly destroyed during 1941 and so the axis had a great number of planes avalible to them because the luftwaffe had not been wiped out. Sixxkiller confirm that you understand that the axis did not start from 0 planes Sixxkiller why is it so hard for you to call the people who made CMBB and get the numbers of avalible aircraft at any given time And confirm that you understand that the axis had more natural resources then the Soviets throught the whole war First number is German second number is Soviet numbers are from Richard Overy's The Dictators Coal (million tonnes) 1941 315.5 - 151.4 1942 317.9 - 75.5 1943 340.4 - 93.1 1944 347.6 - 121.5 Steel (million tonnes) 1941 28.2 - 17.9 1942 28.7 - 8.1 1943 30.6 - 8.5 1944 25.8 - 10.9 Aluminium (thousand tonnes) 1941 233.6 - – 1942 264.0 - 51.7 1943 250.0 - 62.3 1944 245.3 - 82.7 Labour 1941 16,400,000 - 11,000,000 1942 16,200,000 - 7,250,000 1943 16,800,000 - 7,700,000 1944 18,000,000 - 9,000,000 [ September 26, 2006, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: TheHumanMage ]