yurch

Does the entire server have to vote to kick somebody? I think it would make more sense if only his team had to vote on this. Annoying players are rarely annoying to the enemy, and often they aren't even witness to whatever he's doing, be it equipment wasting, chat/voice/pathnode spam/slurs or constant ramming.

The "green" map is very poor to judge AP performance (and in general, difficulty to hit) off of. It's got an atmospheric density of something like 2.3, which really retards velocity. (Remember, kinetic energy is a square function of velocity, so a naive way to express this is that AP rounds are something like 4 times less effective than in a 1.0 atmosphere) AP really shines on the ice map (0.7 atm). You can easily punch through the front of apollos and paladins, at range, (edit: closer up, you can punch frontally through the tracks on Thors) and have to lead far less for the HEAT round. Right now, fuel fires are the predominant method of killing targets, both because it neutralizes the entire vehicle and because it's the only assured way for players to get their kill-point. Second place might be igniting the engine. I'm somewhat against raising the general effectiveness of any round in light of this. People rarely bother (in comparison to the fuel) to turret kill or mobility kill, though, but either can be effective and in some cases is even easier. 76mm has no problem igniting a Thor turret with a few shots from the side. With 120mm HEAT it's almost trival. The engine can stand to be a bit weaker(especially on hovercraft), perhaps, but with a wounded pilot and yellow engine, maybe a few tires missing, you are basically stationary anyway. For gameplay's sake, the only subsystems I would want reduced in 'strengh' (vs AP/HEAT) are the crew members. You might see more players going for other shots if they got points for other things. I'd say a point for removing the ability to shoot (either gunner or ammo feed) and a point for removing the ability to move (either engine, driver, or all 4 tires removed, one point given max). You get both points if you destroy the vehicle via fuel/engine/ammo fire, since technically you've removed both ability to fire and to move. Hovercraft could probably have thier subsystems rethought. Making each of the support jets individually damageable, like the tires are now, would be the way my sick twisted mind would do it. Shoot out his right front supporting engine (now, he tilts that way...) and watch the fun begin. [ April 08, 2006, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: yurch ]

The shrike has an 'empty region' of useless space from the side. Try aiming futher to the rear for the ammo or lower down and towards the front for the fuel cell/engine. As the shrike also has virtually no armor at all, HE shells are an option. Going by the online schematic here it appears that the launcher on the shrike is not actually a targetable subsystem... is this correct? Paladins have surprising amount of frontal armor, but there's a lip underneath the engine (that I think counts as 'bottom armor') you can use to knock out it's fuel cells from the front. A burst to each front wheel also assures it won't be very useful even if you don't manage to kill it. In general, 20mm is very easy to kill with close up (apollos from the front!!%) once you know where the more volitile subsystems are.

Yeah, usually 0%, at the moment. My connection can vary a lot though, one week I had 400+ ping to virtually every server, next week it's fine. Famite is the worst for me, usually. I used my dropteam.log to check for the server IP's... is it normal for this thing to be 180+ meg!?

I've seen it attempt to shoot down slow, high flying projectiles, like 20mm fired from extreme distance. Don't know how sucessful it is at this, though.

I mentioned this once in the "feedback thread" in passing, but I think it's important/serious enough to warrent a thread. I must stress that I don't know how the mechanics of the game work, but the easiest way for me to describe this is with mechanics, so bear with me here. It appears the client input is sent to the server by change in input. This means there are two potential messages a client can send the server: Key has been pressed, and key has been released. Because of the imperfect ways of the internet, however, sometimes messages don't get through. Due to it's one-time nature, I think "key has been released" is not getting through on occasion, leaving the key marked as 'pressed' for long durations. The result is input that seems to stick in less than optimal situations for a connection. Pressing the same direction over and over in an attempt to get the 'key released' message to go through seems to stop the nonstop turning/throttle and adds some validity to the above hypothesis. I believe that this is the cause of situations where some players complain that they are 'spinning out' in tanks/hovercraft from mere taps of the keyboard, both from stationary and while moving. I think that an additional (sanity?) check is needed for the keystate. I can get this several times a minute if I'm unlucky, and it can make simply orienting the chassis in a direction an infuriating process.

Existing (enemy)jammer turrets are visible on the tac map (and with red pips) if you join a game in progress. I think this also applies to hermes. Dunno where else to put this. /me salutes again.

I'm noticing many players don't seem to realize the hermes has a jamming field. Perhaps that yellow circle should be attached to the vehicle in the tac map?

I haven't tried to reproduce it myself for fear of messing up a server, but Phreshal (who apparently doesn't have a forum account) says it occurs every time. It's quite simple: Take over another bot, while 'extracting' with the Viper. The extracting part may or may not be necessary. /me salutes

Browsing through the armor values is a real eye opener. One particular one I take issue with is the command vehicle - right now it has a frontal armor value of 100 - which is comparable to the side armor (HEAT ROUNDS!#@%) of a good percentage of units, including the paladin. It may not be a frontline vehicle, but I think this is a tad low. In-game analyisis seems to support this, I am very commonly killed from the front at surprising ranges on the ice map, where there often is little option to leave cover. This is a battlefield where units can drop in from anywhere, and the tracks on the vehicle certainly aren't much of a speed advantage. I think it would make a little bit of engineering sense to give it a tad more frontal armor - at least to match the paladin! In game, using the vehicle, I usally try to stick somewhat behind teammates to aid the assault if necessary - dropping turrets, jammers, as well as firing the 20mm on targets that may unexpectedly pop up very close. And I mean close - I have no problem holding fire if the target hasn't noticed me sitting in jammer cover. If he's firing on teammates, it might be another story. However, I'm starting to reconsider this in favor of the far less exciting but far more popular "hide in the corner of the map long enough to drop something" routine. I'm a bit torn, though. In an assault, you need every human player you can get to help out with the direct approach, it's kind of a shame to sit out if your team wants proper turret/support cover. Oh, and I just thought I'd put it out there: ground turret fire unaffected by gravity is wierd.

I think the hermes comments are from pre-patch. I can't consistantly kill thors from the front with it anymore, so yeah, it is a bit worse. It is a 'popular' vehicle, though, simply because it's so useful. I insist on the deployment of one whenever I'm attacking just for the jamming field, and even lone players can find use for a mobile AA umbrella and the ability to sneak up on turrets and unaware players. I don't think (120mm) HEAT should have any more penetration. It's almost a one hit kill in the right area and I get plenty of shot opportunites for it as it is. At a distance it can be rough to get that good hit in, but having units generally last a bit longer at range gives more time for manuvering tactics and all that jive. An important thing with the hurricane is that the shell can explode anywhere around you. If the player misses, this is usally somewhere behind you. With the Apollo this is almost assured engine damage, and the Thor turret has the bad tendancy to catch shrapnel. I've been trying to put dropoffs and chasms directly behind me when fighting a hurricane, but this sort of terrain feature isn't usually availible in an area a hurricane would operate in. A direct hit to the thor side or rear will kill it, so don't spend too much time trying to get yourself into position. With the new sloping modfier, I've noticed that the hurricane is actually fairly well designed with funny slopes all over it. It seems to be deflecting more AP shots than before. I recommend ATGMs, if you can stand the instant vaporization that occurs if you get spotted. You may not want to go for the top shot(full lock) if you think you can get the missile to his rear instead. On the plus side, more and more players are figuring out that they can take over bot controlled vehicles, making the bot thor piles a tad more threatening...

Rollstoy: players can take control of bot controlled vehicles. It's an option found by right clicking on bots in the spacebar map screen.

Yeah, I meant back-front tumbling as well. More things: It's possible for a player to cause his team a tremendous amount of grief. Had some guy piling all the turrets onto one spot, ramming players, taking control of bots and shooting friendlies, ect. I can't think of anything specifically to stop all this, but it would be nice to have a specific teamkill/teamdamage message. (right now there's nothing) Would at the very least drive home to the hurri pilots how far that shrapnel can carry. Input tends to stick when the connection is less than optimal. What I mean is, if you're driving forward, and then release the throttle, you will continue forward at full throttle indefinately. Happens with turning as well. The Viper is an interesting vehicle, but I think it needs something more to be 'worthy'. Right now, the only thing it's good for (with the exception of flinging enemies, which I expect isn't it's intended role, despite all the abusing I've done in this manner) is the rapid transport and delivery of the hermes jammer vehicle. The jammer covers the craft from automated AA, so the vehicle can be dropped into very hostile territory to serve as jammer cover for the rest of the team to attempt a standard drop in. For any other role(discounting CTF), the Viper is a poor alternative for a standard drop, which is both faster (loading time, communication) and more importantly, safer. Especially when considering input problems like the above, and more below. The Viper could possibly fill a larger role if it was given a point defense similar to the Galaxy, but I'm not sure if that would make it too powerful. Giving it it's own jammer certainly would be overpowered, though. It would be immune to nearly all AA. The viper has the bad tendancy to lurch in odd directions whenever typing or checking the map. I'm not sure what does this. I also have had a single occurance (in the latest patch!!!) of the 'rapid spinning' associated with picking up a hurricane. Have not been able to reproduce.

In a low grav enviroment, wouldn't it make more sense for the vehicle to be more prone to skidding instead of flipping? Right now I have more 'accidents' with shrikes/paladins(if you start to lag funny, input can lock for a most inappropriate period...) than I do with hovercraft.

It appears there's a problem with the auth server again. Game hangs on join server attempt. (until I unplug my LAN) All servers are listed at 0 players, so I think it's not just me.

Also, what's there to keep players from 'cheating' by changing the sprites? Seethrough smoke/trees and neon paint schemes jump to mind immediately...

Looking at the sprite it in the game directory, it's far better looking (artistically), and it almost appears like it was based on some sort of fireworks display. Something about it in game just destroys it's sense of depth and coloring, though, but I can't quite put my finger on it. Looking forward to particles.

The way lag works, often times I find myself firing the opposite direction you would ordinarily expect to lead (while the shooter is moving quickly sideways). It depends on whether or not you keep the crosshair over the target the entire time, or let it roll over the target as you move past it. If you let it roll, it appears you should let it roll past the target. Think of it as if the shot originates where your vehicle and crosshair orientation were a few ms ago. Aggressively keeping the crosshair on the target during the few ms before the shot appears to validate this, as the need for the 'rolling lead' is eliminated. If the target is moving, you would have to keep the crosshair at the desired ordinary-lead region. (Presuming I'm correct about all this...) This netcode method of course is in no way problematic, and it works well considering the alternatives, especially for a slower paced gunnery-based (and not a dodging-based) game like this. Without getting into the miserable specifics of all the different netcode styles out there, I think the way we already have is the most visually consistant method, and I wouldn't want it changed. This is good to know, when operating very quick craft or in high lag situations. If shooter velocity imparts any actual movement on the shell or not, I cannot tell, as lag displacement is a hard factor to seperate it from. Initially I would say no.

I'm not up to date on modern armor/mortar combat, but smoke/obscurement rounds are still used, right? Could we get some smoke rounds for the mortar and conventional-cannon armed units? We've already got a flavor selection method for ammunition and graphics from the command smoke-mission...

Are there any mod options regarding this sort of thing? (I suppose, other than just changing the sprites) I couldn't find anything but various weapon/vehicle data at a cursory glance.

Agreed. There are enough circumstances that completely neuter ATGM's as it is, and those hard counters already make me apprehensive of even taking the launcher vehicle. For what reason would anyone take ATGM's later? Hermes vehicles are popular, antiprojectile towers and the support ship laugh it off, and it takes an average of 2-3 rockets to really have any assurance of taking out the target. Whenever I get hit with ATGM's it's almost always when I'm alone. I don't mind that.

I fail to see how larger maps specifically will somehow increase the need for "teamwork" in a category of weapons that are all long-range. What's wrong with considering what the problem is on maps that already exist?

CTRL-D should bring up the turret drop menu while in the command vehicle... unless somebody else is commander I suppose. If you ask me, the number one barrier to teamwork are extremely disruptive vehicles like the hurricanes used in defensive or autonomous positions. All it takes is a pair or more of players using them in conjunction - the poor fire rate is no longer a concern when there's multiple craft, if it ever was a concern in the first place. It's extremely easy to just ctrl-m incoming dropships and have shells incoming to greet dropping teams. Even with jammer vehicles, visual identification can be done well outside effective retaliation range. The result is that any coordinated attack becomes a coordinated mess. For every actual kill there's a neutered thor in a crater and two paladins with damaged engines or shredded tires. Attackers spend half the game sitting outside AA range deploying and extracting with damage they can't fight with. Repeat at every chokepoint, AA funneled drop point and open field. The game becomes focused on the disruption craft, and every minute spent uselessly chasing around single players (who can extract themselves at the slightest hint of damage or even danger) is another minute where the team isn't focused on a goal. I've been on the giving and receiving end of this, and I have to say it really doesn't feel like teamwork. The amount of (extremely effective) artillery vehicles available for use at any point of time in this game is downright alarming, but at least with the majority of them you can throw your hands up and get the cumbersome AA vehicle to follow you around. Even ions can create a surprising mess from incredible distances, as most every vehicle except the thor or hovercraft go down to it fairly quickly. The hurricanes are just the biggest offender. Generally, disruption is too easy. We have the very powerful ability to deploy anywhere we want in mere seconds, combined with the ability to bring exactly the right weapon for the job. There's a reason why seemingly every successful attack on that ice map (with more than just a few actual players defending) involves sneaking a sensor jammer in and dropping as many players on the base as possible. I really don't want this to be the greatest extent of attacker's options. I think saturation is the key thing here. You can't cover the playfield with conventional vehicles well enough with 6 players if there are 3 players playing disruption on the other side. If it were all 6 hurricanes deployed but 24 players with paladins were dropping where ever they like, it might be another story. Disruption craft are far less useful if they need to stick by their teammates. It makes the tactics of armor combat far more sensible, when there are fewer angles to cover from. If single players can loiter on hills/fields/map edges firing completely unmolested until someone is available and able to drop on top of him, you're going to be chasing players around all day, because that is what is effective. This may become even more effective once ATGM countermeasures are in place. Using turrets to plug the holes is tedious and generally ineffective, they aren't very dangerous and rarely work as even a speedbump. They generally only aid players that are still occupying the region (preventing you from dropping on them, and thusly giving them escape), which is another point for the disruption player. If they need to stick with AA cover and a supporting teammate, maybe even dig a fortification, you're going to see larger concentrations on a lesser number of hills/fields/whatever, and hopefully a more exciting/interesting game. Firing EMP or fire missions at lone players usually seems like a waste. Without suggestions, of course, this is just a whine post. The main problem is that there are proportionately too many extreme ranged craft available at a time. I can't realistically ask for more players or larger servers, of course, so I suggest that craft availability should change throughout the match. Not having all 6 hurricanes and 40+ artillery/ion pieces for defenders at the onset would go a long way. Hell, attackers shouldn't even have that many to start with, especially with 6 players on a team at the most. Maybe then someone would use the mortar paladin. Adjusting the availability for player count couldn't hurt either. It's just sick having a 2 on 2 ctf game. EVERYBODY has a hurricane, and I feel real sorry for the team who loses them all first. And maybe, just maybe, drop the caliber of the hurricane weapon.

This is more an artwork gripe than a gameplay issue, really, but there's a bit of overlap in terms of visualization of hit. I apologize if I come off a bit harsh. I find the hit effects are somewhat lackluster. By hit effects, I mean the various types of effects a projectile can make when hitting targets. Penetrating hits make that 'splatter' effect, Non penetrating does the explosion + dark smoke. Shots that hit the ground have the non-penetrating effect, but not much else. The first issue is missed shots, with the default 'explosion' graphic. Granted, I've never seen a 120mm sabot fired into the dirt, but I really think there should be more dust/dirt/other kicked up into the air. And why not? The artillery puts up a brilliant plume of crap into the air (probably not enough, considering the volume of dirt they often displace), often obscuring view for a significant timeframe. Low gravity/low atmo environments might even make the dust take longer to settle down... So why don't we have any dust at all? The (almost circular) puff of black smoke for the explosion also doesn't look quite right, especially for AP ammunition. When under 20mm 'rain', the only visual is small black circles landing in orderly lines near your craft. Non penetrating hits are a judgment call. Now, I haven't observed tank combat, so I'm obviously not an expert. But, given the metal-on-metal action, I'd expect at least a small bit of sparks, probably fired in normals to the same directions the shell approaches and deflects off to. Penetrating hits are probably the worst. I actually laughed the first time I saw it. For some reason it looks to me like some sort of aerosol-ketchup was escaping the craft. Right now I can't tell if the hit effect is a sprite system or particles, (edit: it's a sprite) although I'm fairly certain it's an animated sprite. If the pink-red blobby thing must be kept, I think it should be attached to the craft at the hit location for the duration of the animation. (actual particles, if used, should be fired taking vehicle velocity into account) Reasoning for this is two fold; The first is that it looks silly for the effect to still be animating in the same manner long after the vehicle has driven away. It gives the impression of slow-motion extreme-air-resistance sparks, and that ion hits are somehow producing smoke for several seconds that comes out of mid air. The other reason is that it gives us a better idea of where we hit the vehicle. Right now the pink-red thing doesn't really look like a spark or any other sort of light source. Sparks also shouldn't grow in size (see: HE hits vs AP hits on a building) and are usually more... well, "frisky". There should be an inherent violence in a hit effect. Now, I don't know your engine or it's limitations, or your final intentions for it. It appears that you do in fact have a sort of particle effect system, however. Please abuse it for the hit effects. I absolutely love particle effects, and it'll be one more thing on top of this already promising game. edit: I can NOT spell today [ March 30, 2006, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: yurch ]

I've gotten decent with the 76mm. Things to remember are: 1) It outranges the 20mm - you can kill 20mm vehicles in situations where they're mostly just bouncing pellets off of your front. 2) This range, coincidentally, is the range you should STAY at. Only get up close to either bots or stuff you're sure you can kill quick(not much). Get used to driving in wide circles around tanks and figuring out how to compensate for lag. 3) With HE, it's ammocount is big enough to kill an ion tower and still have some HE shells left over. Not many vehicles can do this. (Not like you're going to use HE for much else, either) 4) Get creative. Sometimes it's easier to knock out the turret than the entire tank. Shoot out the tires of paladins chasing you down. Drive up and down hills to prevent getting predictable. 5) Use distractions. Every vehicle has higher front armor than rear armor. It is in your interest to force the enemy to have to choose which direction his armor faces. This includes his turret. If he faces it towards you, waste his time. Speed is on your side. You've now already done your job, and hopefully your other teammate will smash a HEAT round through his side. If he ignores you, go to work dismantling everything he holds dear. 6) This gun is a scalpel, not a chainsaw. Don't ever undertake a tactic that involves you killing x before it does y. Use full zoom, and try to mentally keep track of the state of his vehicle. edit: I can't spelllll [ March 30, 2006, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: yurch ]