Col. Gen. Guderian

THANK YOU!. Finally someone who isn't an idiot.

So swearing makes me immature? Wow, you're smart. I didn't address anyone here offensively, i'm just talking about other people when I say it. Anyway, i'm TERRIBLY sorry, and I'll refrain from using such 'foul language' in the future as it naturally equates to me being 'grossly immature'. I know i'm a fool for not reading the 30 or so pages of rules and disclaimers when I became a member of this board. And I know if I was an upstanding citizen then I would have

I don't know who to listen to here. Oh well, I remember watching the battle of the bulge and it was just pure stupidity. I'm not sure which tank it was exactly that the Germans had, but it looked like a cross between a King Tiger and a Panther. The American tank seemed to be a Pershing tank, only it was very small and the tank was only introduced in 1945 if i'm not mistaken. Each side only had this 1 type of tank. Old war films are completely balls. I hope Patton will be an exception. The trailer was very funny.

Thank God it's finally on it's way. As for my exam dilemma, my parents have resolved this issue by not allowing me to play the game until my birthday which is the 18th of June. That's not so bad as my exams end on the 28th of June. My second last exam is actually on the 10th, so I'll have ample time to play the game as I won't be buried under work. The bulk of my exams are next week, and what a dreadful week it will be. All 3 politics modules to sit, one of them is a synoptic. 1 History and one music 'compositional techniques' exam. I've got 5 exams in 4 days. The music one is 3 hours long After next week, my life will take a turn for the better.

Look kid, I said Cunt and **** once each (that makes it twice) and only 2 people have whined about it. Big deal, it's hardly like i'm using it in excess. Do you tell someone off in real life for using 'bad language'? Do you scorn films and music which have certain swear words in them? God, WHO CARES?

Jesus Christ, I said 'with Hitler disposed', the German generals would put all their efforts into stopping the red army. It wouldn't be a tyranny anymore. I mean, most Generals were looking for an armistice as early as 1943. It was quite possible that an armistice on the western front could have been created in January, 1945 if Hitler had been gotten rid of.

Besides, what the **** does being #1 in a computer game league have anything to do with knowledge of world war 2? What, because you can buy lots of Air fleets with 5 tech?

You call Hitler the worst General of the war, he wasn't a General. You say that the Germans could have been defeated in the Summer of 1944 and that the Allies were too afraid to get their feet wet. That is pure nonsense and I bet everyone else here would disagree with you whole heartedly on that one.

Has anyone seen the film Patton? I've heard that it's brilliant, even from people who have no love of war history.

They don't know what they're talking about.

You speak as if you know what you're talking about, when you actually know nothing, as this post proves.

Sorry, you're not a moderator and so I refuse to change my post. I'm not trying to be awkward, but people need to loosen up about bad language, most people here seem mature enough to handle it.

Oops, you're right.

I say Marshall Budenny of the Soviet Union. Estimates vary but he is suspected to have lost between 1 million and 1 and a half million men in Kiev and Uman concentrations of 1941. This is when his opponents had less than half that strength. This is tragic enough, but he failed to co-ordinate only one division in Poland 1939. He clumsily failed to link up with Tukhachevski's attack on Warsaw and was forced into a humiliating retreat. What a stupid cunt. [ May 20, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Col. Gen. Guderian ]

I disagree, the generalship obviously hadn't improved much by 1942 or even '43. The only reason Zhukov didn't let the the exhausted 6th army escape from Stalingrad and then rout the entire army group was because he didn't think his tank commanders were up to the task. He didn't want to give them any tasks which he thought they might **** up. Kursk was the first time that Russian tank formations hadn't floundered in mass. The russian co-ordinated attacks were never a patch on the German summer offensives of 1941. Think of it this way, in 5 months the Germans had captured virtually as much territory as the Russians had taken back between the whole of 1943 to mid 1944. The Germans did it with a starting ratio of 1:5 against them and the Russians did it with about a 4:1 ratio in their favour, which increased as the battles went on. Sure, Koniev, Zhukov, Rokossovsky and Chuikov were great commanders, but they were few and far between. The Russian army may have become far more competent than what they were in 1941, but they would never match the prowess of the German commanders.

Well wouldn't that be ok? I mean, after all, it is Germany trying to repel them. I've found a couple of maps with dispositions of the 3 sides in April '45. When I actually get the game, i'll make something like it and then show it to you and we can both work on it. Whatdyasay?

It is true that Hitler abandoned the operation as much out of the Sicily landings as of recognising that Zitadelle had been a failure, but Mansteins judgement in that instance was certainly uncharacteristic of him. Yes he was in a difficult position, but if the operation had been pressed ahead it would have only hastened the demise of the German army. Kursk is one of the most interesting battles of the war in that, although it finished inconclusively and each side had done as much damage to the other, it proved to be the final turning point in the war. For once, the German Blitzkrieg simply hadn't worked. After that, it was all downhill for Hitler.

Yes yes, i get the picture. But you're ignoring 2 key points. I only said Guderian was the pioneer of tank warfare in the GERMAN army. Also, when I said that would be something Patton said, I meant that Patton would say something like that because he was so vain. Hence, your entire argument was wasted on me. No offence, but you completely misread me.

I know, i'm just wrestling with my conscience because i'm in the middle of my final exams for school. I'll most certainly buy it after the exams, or I might just buy it before then. Who knows? You can only order it through the website though right? That really sucks balls.

Well you're hardly going to say "I have our finest operational brain", unless you're George Patton or something. Yes, granted, Manstein was a complete genius who was particuarly adept in planning but I did only say that Guderian was probably the best general of the war. It's wide open to debate. What IS certain though, is that he was the greatest tank commander of the war. He was the originator of it within the German army, a pioneer. Rommel, Manstein, Manteuffel, Balck and many others all learnt their tactics from him. This natural ability with tanks could be explained by the fact that he was originally a technician in the army and worked with tanks and motorized troops from the early 1920's. Did you know that Manstein thought that the Kursk operation should be continued even when the Russians had unleashed their tank reserves? Hitler ordered that the mission should be abandoned. Alan Clark called this an "interesting role-reversal". OK, it's the only real flaw I have ever seen in Mansteins judgement, but it was a pretty huge one.

Whoa, didn't know that. I thought Guderian only became subordinate to Kluge at his own request, so that he could use some of Kluge's infanty to guard his own flanks. Oh wait, but you mean he wanted to make both Panzer armies subordinate to Kluge? I see. All the same, Bock, Halder and Guderian were all in total agreement with wanting to attack Moscow and there are certain other instances in Barbarossa where Guderian and Bock agreed with each other, but I can't remember any specifics.

Hey, my whole point of this was to include individual Army and Panzer army commanders. I.e Guderian falls easily into this category as he got his own Panzergruppe. Besides, although he never made Field Marshall, he ended up being the Chief of staff for the whole of OKH, don't you think he deserves a firm place on the list with a hefty 9 rating? Hoth should be up there too as he commanded the 3rd Panzer army for Barbarossa and then the 4th for Operation Blue. Still, it's a very good list. You've obviously done your homework. P.S. I'd also give Heinrici an 8 rather than a 7. And yes, he was excellent in the defensive battles.

Hey, i'm glad your interested in taking this on. I was actually thinking of staging it somewhat later than that, when the Americans crossed the Elbe opposite Berlin it was some time in April. I'm trying to find a specific date here in a few books. Sorry, perhaps I didn't really make myself clear when describing the idea. I was thinking about this for a scenario: Americans cross the Elbe and reach Berlin before the Russians. Stalin is outraged at the Allies not keeping to the terms of Yalta. Stalin orders Zhukov and Koniev's fronts to do a pincer movement to take Berlin from the Allies. Allies are now assisted by the remnants of the German forces and try to drive Stalin back. With that in mind, the Soviets should get the first turn. What do you think?

Well, him and Guderian agreed on most things and Guderian was probably the finest general the Germans had of the war, certainly the best Panzer General, hence my goofy name. It was Bock who was responsible for the Kharkov encirclement in May 1942. He spotted the opportunity but Hitler took the idea as his own, Paulus got all the credit when in reality, Bock was really carrying it out. His dismissal was because of him airing rational views about clearing his flanks before making the real assault (Plan Blue). Had he not been dismissed, it is arguable that the whole Stalingrad disaster would not have happened as the army groups A and B wouldn't have been given such independent and wildly optimistic objectives. From that point on, the operation lost all cohesion with such mix ups like both Kliest's and Hoth's Panzer armies arriving at the same bridge head causing days of congestion. Have you read Stalingrad by Antony Beevor, or Barbarossa by Alan Clark? I'd def recommend them. Quality books, but I read up my info from them and both men believe Bock to be a fine general.

I hear you, but don't rush the man. He's probably trying to implement all of our suggestions right now and that may take some time. Still, it's hardly the most detailed game in the world, it shouldn't take that long.