Volkov

Now I don't know who to believe. The article in Signal said German troops were the most accurate... </font>

Yes the US had more ranges! They were every backyard! I stated earlier that a-lot of US troops were farm boys...and spent a lot of time shooting. And the rest were thugs and gangsters. Again the 2nd Amendment! And at every US Army installation there was a rifle range. But of-courese they were not used on a daily basis. Remember that the US had raised close to 200 Divisions. Maybe you boys are missunderstanding me. I have not said that in the US in WW2 everyone was a sniper...NO! Far from it. And please don't tell me that marksmanship training either then or now doesn't mean anything in combat. YES I know you either stand, kneel or are prone when shooting targets..errr..But the priciples are what make you good. Bone support, breath control, eye relief, sight picture, trigger control and reflex,,,THIS TEACHES MUSCLE MEMORY!!!!,,,,when a bad guy is infront of you your reflex and instict kick in so when you place your weapon to your shoulder YOU CAN BET your target will be hit!!!!!!TRUST ME!!!! And further more....most of the time your enemy is seeking defilade as he advances under supporting weapons,,(even in WW2) I rarley ever saw my enemy but I know that when he ducked behind a bush or a burm I could get a farley accurate bead on him,,,I would pop up and down(called chicken peck) And when he appeared I could snap a round or two into him usually upper chest or lower head/neck.... I learned to do this on a rifle range... As far as the US Army goes in North Africa,,,,yes they were inept, I took patton 2 weeks to get of the beach that was defended by French troops that didn't really want to fight the Americans, and in some cases the French Officers would not issuse our ammo to thier troops...If that had happened with Defending German or even Italian force, then Operation Toach would have failed misserably. Anyone that has experience combat will tell you that for the first time it is quite scary!!!!! Usually mother nature take over and you bowls and bladder gain minds of their own!!!! The trick is to accpet that you are going to die or are already dead...(well that works for some,,,others I could tell you).....And the other is to remember that your enemy is expericancing the same. How in the heck did we get to this groveling....?

No CM doen't model web gear and nor does it account for bandoliers. We stated earlier that the ammo is just pooled for points. And unlike other games you can not turn on/off specific weapons. The only thing I have found is that the units experiance plays an important part in the game..(duh) The more experienced units tend to gain more "kills" and not panic as easy. (obviously)..Remember that you can adjust the ammo amount in scenario building.

Oh! I forgot to add that I was a PMI or Primary Marksmanship Instructor too! How arrogant am I now!

Well...how about this.... I was refering to my experiences. And as far as KD range goes...It means Known Distance. 100, 300 and 500 yards. The US army shoot only up to 300 yards. The "KD" range was the standard at that time. The US Army today went to a unknow distance range w/ pop up targets but the USMC remained the same. This was (and still is) the incipient stage of marksmanship training. The moving targets and low light targets are apart of the advanced training received..then and now.

Yes US Army Soldiers, fighting in the ETO, specifically North Africa and Itay and definatley not the PTO, Which, AIUI, rules out the Marine Corps, did commonly carry more ammuniton. The ammo came in those steel boxes and wooden crates depending on the amount needed. The bandoliers were already packed and just need to be extracted. Ammo for the BAR was genrally the same. The 782 gear for that that 6 pockets that could hold 2(20) rd magazine per. That 12 magazines or 240 rds. But the price was a-lot of weight between weapon and ammo. Employing that weapon really came down to tactics. It was not used as its portrayed in Hollywood...you know the 5000 rd capacity firing at every target....It was a bit more reserved. And dependent on the squad or platoon. Someone would carry extra BAR ammo and act as an assistant BAR gunner.

I thought I was being specific with regards to US troops. US Army troops in the ETO, if you are not capable of figuring that out from the context. </font>

Claiming that modern USMC techniques apply in full and without restriction to all who fought in the US Army during WWII doesn't make sense. </font>

Yes live fire exercise were conducted (offensive) in those days. Fire and movement as a platoon and squad were conducted on a regular bases while in rear areas. Training was conducted A LOT when in rear areas. I know that this is a CMAK topic that includeds ETO and I am asked why should other theaters be included, well I ask why is someone including a point about the battle of the Mons in WW1, how does that have any bering on CMAK. He was attemoting to make a point to rebut a statement made by myself. Most everyone are making referance to US soldiers and forget that we fought on many front with significant strength. You can not say US Marksmanship training and include all US services. The USMC marksman training is MUCH different than that of the US Army. Even in WW2. Again I have experianced these ranges first hand. I did not read about it in some book or take it from some quack on a discussion forum. So if you want to make referance to US troops than be specific, irregardless of the CMAK topic. The first question was about US ammo load and it was answered with facts. The US ammo load was standard for all the serivces. For you boys who like to read,,,find "A Soldiers Load and a Mobility of a Nation." I think someone above said "Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study logistics"

Also, aside from military training,,,most US troops of that time were "farm boys" and spent thier entire lives hunting, trapping, and fishing. That's how they feed thier families, and even at times clothed. These men went into the military already knowing how to shoot. Which is still the case for American Kids who join the serivce today. God bless the Second Amendment and Sam Colt.

Oh, to add an answer about the split squad for volks, It still will divide the ammo load out. Its all pooled and genaric. Its just how it is..unfourtunately...

As far as my "modern" experiance goes with marksmanship training...The course I fired on had not changes since 1908. The same priciples exist. The range (even then) exists to teach confidence with the weapon. The close order drill teaches disipline (amongst other things). US marksman ARE better. Especially today. I have more than 10 minutes of combat experiance and my marksmanship DID INDEED help. I spent 9 years in the USMC and I was a 9 time Rifle Expert (qualification). I have "been there" , and every USA and USMC rifleman I have come across in my day (I come from a long line of infantrymen) Have said that thier weapons training was invaluable in combat. JUST ASK A VET! YES Artillery accounted for some 70% of all casualties in the 20th century. But has to be lifted once it become "proximity close". But you all should know that because of the games you all play......errrr BTW the standard US WW2 infantryman WAS more better equipt and supplied than any other soldier in that time (even today). Just take a-lot at there web gear, (I think you all call it a kit). As far as the Steven Ambrose "steriod" comment,,,I gave up steriods years ago......

Oh gee,, I am sorry, I thought engaging your target at 1600m IS the same a target shooting,,But I guess not, Are you going to tell me next that the ones recieving that fire were vollying back at 1600m standing and advancing? I must admit I have not read of this battle but I can not imagine that it would be difficult to hit a target thats massed ,in line and advancing in the open at any distance. I make this determination based on WW1 tactics.(if thats what you can call them)What was the size of the unit? Regiment(+)? Here's another tid bit, most infantry combat takes place usually no more than 300m. That is why military sights are set to 300m as standard (BZO or battle sight zero) And again, If you have ever been to a professioanl school of infantry you would know this(yes even in WW2 this stands true, agian just ask a vet) Hence the small size of todays cartidges. The main lesson is speed and accuracy. Being able to engage you target quickly and killing it then moving on to the rest, usually you have about 1-3 seconds to seek out, judge range, aim, and fire and recover. To answer your "battle hardened German Waffen or 8th Army" question, while the US did blunder in the begining stages of North Africa due to incompetance in leadership and logistics, THEY WERE WINNING in the Jungles of Guadalcanal against a much more "battle hardened" enemy that hadn't lost a ground war in 2500 years, around the same time, (Aug 7, 1942-December 1942). And that was through superior marksmanship and training. Read up on that battle. Than re-ask your question...

Err Newsflash.....I know all to well about shooting and getting shot at. I do not sit around and armchair quarterback.....And wonder what if....Its obvious you have never sat the KD range or a professional school of Infantry. Don't blanket WW2 with the ETO either, there were a few other theaters. Oh an BTW the US, UK and allies did win right? I guess their aim was pretty dead on when it came down to it....No matter what battles they lost,,,US troops were sent to staging areas in the rear were thier training continued before he was sent to the line. And you can bet that every Infantryman knew the weapon systems that he was supposed to know. Newsflash...talk to a US veteran. As far as the 1 mile sight in w/ leaf sights,,were did you get that info? I am interested in reading up on that. Being that the aveage human eye can not accuratly zero in on a human target at that distance w/o aid of optics. Oh yeah and especially when you have to arc the weapon to line the sites up. Those leaf sites are on early to mid 1900's rifles. They are completely useless and only effective in a highly skilled marksman that can factor in some "Kentucky Windage". May be you should try it out for yourself.....Don't listen to me I only used to do this for a living what the heck do I know........

US Military personnel (especially the Marines) have always recieved estensive marksmanship training. They learn the science behind it. They also have and had to requal every year. For instance the USMC has been shooting at 500yards w/o the aid of optics since the M-1903 in the early 1900's. As far as the 30-.06 and the .303 brit goes..I'll save you some research time...I own both the M-1 Garand and a No.4 Enfield. The standard military load was 150gr for the M-1 and about 170gr for the .303 brit. I am also an avid hunter and shooter. The 30-.06 has better balistics all around BUT the .303 is a heavier round that possesses MUCH knockdown power..They have almost the same FPS and muzzle velocity but a .303 travling the same distance will stop with much more kinetic energy...but the trade off is greater bullet drop,,so the 30-06 will have a straighter tragectory...I use 30-06 to hunt and match shoot with,,,but most snipers like the .308 caliber,,,and thats another story....I will continue with this later. I have to run out...I have the balistics at home in my log book..I used to re-load all my own brass too...

Yeah that Volksgrenediers squad always gives me a headache....again I wish it was more like Steel Panthers in that respect The bandolier has 60 rds not 30. Two 5 rds strippers per pocket. But yes There is no way its ROF is more. BUT another point that the game doesn't accuratly portray is the US Soldier and Marines basic marksmanship abilities and fire disipline. I guess that would be tougher to model for the game engine though.

As far as individual soldier loads, try to get a copy of "A Soldiers Load and the Mobility of a Nation" Very well written and not to long.

Not saying that the UK or anyone for that matter were unable to carry more ammo but the load out for US Soldiers and Marines was dictated by how much could be produced and proliferated. The enfiled rifles although more powerful (but not much more, .303 to 30-.06) only came in 5 rds strippers (as did most WW2 Infantry Weapons) The bandoliers for the .303 britsh has 6 pockets of 2(5) rds stippers,,the UK ammo is heavier than the US. The enfield rifle has more capacity with a 10 rds detachable box magizine, you either replaced the mag (heavier) or loaded the ammo through the top of the breach when the bolt was back(again like most ww2 infantry small arms.) The M-1 only has 8rds in a internal, ejectable clip that's load through the top. As far as LMGs, The M-1918 BAR is not an LMG, it is a SAW or squad automatic rifle. It fires a .308 caliber round and is not interchangable with the M-1 Garand. The US LMG was the M-1919 series and it fired the .308 as well. I am unaware of LMG and SMG ammo being the same. Being that most if not all SMGs fire pistol caliber rounds the 2 most prominante are the 9mm para and the .45 cal. The Soviets at the end of the war came up with the 7.62x39 which if fired from the AK and SKS series of weapons. It was one of the best advancements in small arms ever. Even they used interchangable ammo in thier rifles and LMG, MMGs. The 7.62x57R. The oldest "bullet and brass" cartrige still used today. Hedges is right in stating that CM does not acuratly address the ammo load outs. And I see how flamingknives has an ache with pooling ammo when it includeds LMGs and SMGs. Maybe in CM2 this would be corrected. I liked how it was done in the Steel Panthers series, each weapon system had its own ammo load and the LMG could run out and the squad could still fight with their rifles and pistols.

Mark me in for Gen Mark Clark..... Any Citadel Grad would be flipping out if they read this post.. They idolize him as some kind a WW2 Superhero General. There's a Museum, Hall, and all sorts of Clark stuf....but a spade is a spade....He would have been better suited being in command of a potato peeling detail...

Yes they did (and do). In WW2 the standard load in the M-1938 web belt was 80 rounds, BUT each man would carry as many bandoliers as he could. Average was about 4. Each bandolier carried about 8 additional 8rd .30-06 stripper clips. If my math is right that is about 266rds. Today we carry a standard of 180rds, BUT that's teh minimums. The bandolier concept still carries today. 2-4 bandoliers that hold 4 ,30 rd magazines. Thats about 600 to 1080 rds per man. But we have all carried more...somtimes an entire box of 5.56 in your pack....Water and Ammo,,Water and Ammo is the name of the game.