ww2steel

Right, so the only meaningful accuracy test is one under completely controlled conditions... which is completely opposite tactical conditions. I added some to an above post too, but you beat me to it... Okay- now that I'm reading your edit I totally see what you're saying. The book did specify Panther, but it may be a misinterpretation of the gun in a rigid mount, as the Germans often did. Mike

What is it trying to distract from? (Now that I looked up 'red herring') I would think that first shot accuracy would be very important. ...as long as it could be close to real world figures... which it's probably not. Mike Okay- now that I'm reading your edit I totally see what you're saying. The book did specify Panther, but it may be a misinterpretation of the gun in a rigid mount, as the Germans often did. [ July 10, 2006, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: ww2steel ]

Jon - makes sense, perhaps. I would think however that first round hit %age would be based more on accuracy than precision. A precise gun that is inaccurate would miss regularly, but would always hit the ground in the same spot. An accurate gun would have a larger group, but be on target. Once a precision gun brackets the target it will hit it like every time, but that's not a 1st round hit percent. Regardless of wording, I understood for a second what you were saying about how this might effect these tests, but now it's beyond me. How would this relate to the difference between real world FIRST SHOT and test range FIRST SHOT? Fill me in please, Mike

So chalk this up to that "the IS2 from 1500m can punch through the glacis plate, through the center bulkhead, and out the rear armor"? (Fine print= the tank had been sitting on a tank range for a year and had been hit 200 times by large caliber guns?) Mike

Yes, but true certainly about what you said- stress and lack of perfect ranging, etc. I just wonder sometimes when my Tiger (or whatever) misses some big enemy tank 3 times in a row from 150m when they're both stopped. It's just maddening! Grr. Mike

I was reading New Vanguard/ Osprey #67 (Panther). On page 42 it states that the Panther with the L/70 achieves a 97% FIRST ROUND hit probability at 1000m and a 29% at 2500m. A T-34/76 in CMBB only gives it a 34% at 1000! It doesn't get to 97% until 65m. Even with an elite crew it's only 55% @ 1000m. Even shooting at the side of a KV2 with an elite crew it's only 77%. Was accuracy just downgraded for the sake of longer games (like the bullet/grenadeproof überinfantry)? Or is the book just plain wrong? Or were they getting this 1RHP from shooting at a '2 story heavy building'? What gives? Mike

Yeah, the "Meow Mix" will certainly attract sales better than a manual on an SU-76 or something. I like the PDF idea, except that it allows for easy (free/ illegal) distribution of something that I've put many many many hours into. The sale price will only be a few bucks over the price to do a nice color printing (for the graphs and screenshots) of a 25+- page manual. I don't think it should cost too much. You have any idea? Mike

Something better about the main gun performance in the later A model only? I figured that since it didn't effect the 3 earlier models that it must be something that changed on the A model, such as optics or the nahv. It seems if it is a chance in the main gun performance that it would effect the D model, etc. Thanks, Mike

I'm almost done with my Panther Ops manual. I logged 905 miles in the mobility tests today I finally got that section done! A handful of tests with enemy AT guns and the differences section and it'll be ready! I'm going to see how much the hard copies are to have professionally printed which will almost completely determine the sale price. The question, what manual should I do next? I was thinking of the SU-122. I really like this vehicle for some unknown reason. Anybody particularly want anything different? Mike

So maybe the Soviets get more effective so the Panther is relatively cheaper? Any why only the later Panther A?

Nope, not displayed at least. I checked command lag too, identical. (It did chance it the Sov Captured Panther A (early), which explains its points change.) Mike

Soem of these weren't included because they had been uprgaded to the standard of later models. So even thought he chassis might have originally been one thing, it was practically identical to a later variant. I miss properly modeled aircraft. Even if they flew in stupid fashions (like always being depicted straight and level) it would be nice to see 'em, click on 'em, and be able to get more info (such as kills). Even if the Maus was retarded, they finished two of them, and I want 'em! Wahhh! What's his name has already gotten me twice with his fake version 1.04 Maus patch. I would pay lots of money to have a Maus added to the game. Mike

Ammo is perfectly identical for all of the Panther's actual service career as reflected by CMBB. (The actual point change is Feb - Mar '44.) It dropped from 241 to 238. All of the other (German) Panthers keep the same points values throughout the career. The Panther A stats page is identical (I checked at both dates to be sute). Maybe something with the nahverteidigungswaffe? Different HE, removal of smoke grenades? As the Panther G is not running yet I cannot compare the changes between it and the Panther A (e) against anyhting else, like the Nahv or the dual mag optics. Mike

I first thought it indicated a simple random function in the program, but after running a graph of my first test it appeared to be a very distinct bell curve with some anomaly at 5, now... I just have no idea. Mike

http://www.cmmods.com/ just an extra 'm' A pilot buddy perhaps? See ya, Mike

Actually I study the east front almost exclusively. The IS3 is hands down the biggest threat to the Panther. The Panther cannot kill the IS3 from the front, and even with shots from the side (the IS starting at a 90° angle) there is no range that the Panther even acheives parity (a 50%+ victory ratio). I forget which ranges were optimal, but I think it was around 500m. Off hand no other vehicles have the upper hand on the Panther. The T-44 was close, the IS2 I think kicked its butt at less than 500m, but the Panther really is great in armor battles. That's pretty much what it was designed for, because its HE round pretty well sucks compared to other tanks of its weight of the day. For some reason I love the short barreled SU122, that's probably the next manual I will write. (Probably wont sell any, but Im just doing it for fun anyway.) This Panther one even spending 8 - 10 hours a day on it will probably still take me a few more months. I've got a new HUGE range that can properly accomodate 100 vehicles per side. I now run 200 tests at each range (I use 7 of them now), so I have it down to only taking about 45 minutes to test two vehicle pairs. Not perfectly statistically significant, but the graphs look nice and clean, and if somethign looks out of wack I just run a few more tests to make sure it's real data and not a fluke. Bed time, gotta work for a few days. See you guys on Friday probably! Mike

Okay, that's what I was doing wrong, and why it didn't make sense to use the rows. Now, how do I use this standard deviation to determine how likely say, the dip at 5 is to be real, and not statistical noise? I need to just go audit another statistics class... Thanks, Mike

Okay, that's cool. Another I noticed is the later Panther A changed points slightly in I think April -May of '44. Ideas? Mike

I did have excel calculate this, but I think I'm doing it wrong. I took the standard deviation of each of the three tests as shown: #rnds Test# (# of vehicles) 1(250) 2(376) 3(376) 0 12 39 29 1 26 22 24 2 35 52 45 3 40 40 44 4 42 53 54 5 14 38 41 6 45 52 66 7 23 35 34 8 13 45 39 Okay, so for zero rounds I calculated the standard deviation to be 11.15. When I graphed even two standard deviations plus or minus the totals of these three tests I still could not fit either a straight line or a bell curve into the margin created. One big, obvious problem is that test 1 was smaller than the others, so of course it will throw off my stddev. I assume I am supposed to use stddev for a population? It has been ten years since my statistics class and I would really appreciate some help, as everything I can find online is either way too basic or more often way too advanced. Please help! :confused: I'm really confused on this stuff and know I could do much better work if I could remmeber this stuff! Thanks, Mike

I have to do a trip to Kentucky or something wed - fri this week, I'll give it a break then. Mike

hmm. I'll check BRB. Back... Darn skippy. Both regulars, everything else identical. A single movement command takes 10 seconds in dec'43 and 7 seconds in Jan'44. Why is that? Mike [ July 03, 2006, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: ww2steel ]

Hmm, the platoon sizes change. Maybe it's an effort to keep the number of points the same per vehicle per platoon. What I mean: (Su-122 again) 4 vehicle plt = 408 = 102 each (1944+) 2 vehicle plt = 206 = 103 each (1943-) Maybe? Anybody?

Okay, I just did another one, with 1002 SU122. The results: (# rounds/ # of veh so equipped) 0 80 1 72 2 132 3 124 4 149 5 93 6 163 7 92 8 97 Is it just my imagination, or are the odd numbers getting shafted? Must be because 122 comes in boxes of two, right? :confused: As for the graph of this chart... I'm more confused than before. I guess it only took 30 mins to do 750 more vehicles, but I just ain't doin no more. Anyway, the only thing I'm sure about is that it's a max of 8, min of 0, and it averages just barely over 4 rounds carried per vehicle. Anybody run test on this before? Mike

Okay, I was doing some work on the SU122. I noticed that in the editor (where it displays rarity but does not alter the points by it) the SU122 is: 111 points Jan-Apr '43 (rare 50 - 100%) 112 points May-Dec '43 (rare 40 - 65%) 117 points Jan '44+ (rare 40 - 125%) Okay, I understand possibly the first one because that's when HEAT ammo becomes available (just one point added?), but not the second one. I see absolutely nothing that changes here, but I checked it on a few other Soviet vehicles (including the captured Panther, which does not change points in German service), and all of them change points values between Dec'43 - Jan'44. Why?

not gonna happen that would take about a year of nonstop work to test this maybe I can do it a different way, just use all one date... yeah I'll do that. but you still ain't getting 30,000+. Mike