Kelly's Heroes

Immer Etwas: If you want to know what the Japanese would have done in 1945, all you need to do is study Japanese actions in the Pacific War from 1937 to 1945. In addition, read the American military's own estimates of what an invasion of Japan would have cost. Any google search will turn that up. Again, all I can say is that your statements, while wonderful in a perfect world, simply defy both the situation in the Pacific as well as the Japanese attitude to being invaded. Pick up a good book on the Pacific War; read what happened on Iwo Jima and Okinawa; find out about the Japanese soldier; the Way of the Samuari; Bushido; and the Japanese attitudes towards their Emperor, to outsiders, and towards the war itself. Once you have done all that, you will soon see the Japanese would have rather killed themselves, starved to death, or flung themselves at the Americans, rather than submit to a blocade. . . Cheers! [ March 24, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

You forget several things: 1) The Japanese had millions of troops in China and were still fighting and killing there. Many more thousands of Chinese would have died, while Americans "sat around" on blocade. Where is your sympathy for them? 2) You are assuming a great deal. The Japanese would have used gardens, and if low on food, they would have eaten bamboo shoots. If it looked like they were going to starve to death, then they would have unleashed between 12,0000 and 15,000 suicide planes, thousands of suicide boats, subs, craft, etc on Americans on blocade. 3) Sitting on blocade would have allowed the Soviets to enter the fighting for Japan. And we all know the end result of that type of experience from Eastern Europe and the Cold War. 4) Sitting on blocade would have allowed the Japanese to build even better defences. They would not have given up. You clearly do not understand the Japanese war mentality of the time. Japan was gearing up to commit national suicide. Japan had a slogan in 1945: "100 million martyrs". By your logic, it is better that 100 million Japanese starve to death, than to lose 100,000 in bombings? [ March 24, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

If it is expensive to go retail, or if not enough money is made this way, then why not consider forming co-operative partnerships? For example, SC could be coupled with some military history magazines. SC boxes could offer advertising to those magazines, in return for advertising dollars, which in turn would help cover any short fall in money, going retail might cause. Just an idea.

I certainly agree with you in principle. But being only internet based also has many disadvantages: 1) Most people who would buy your games have never heard of you. I have run into people who rarely go online, and yet, when I show them certain wargames, they become intensely interested. 2) Retail mainly is to gain exposure and recognition. It's purpose mainly is to attract even more people, than those who know about you via the internet. 3) I have found that even non-wargamers like some types of wargames, such as SC, because it appeals to the planning and strategic side of their nature, much like chess does. There is a reason why Axis and Allies is known worldwide, not only because of the nature of the game, but also because it has exposure. 4) Wargames will always remain niche games, so long as they are made strictly for, marketed to, catered to, and sold only to, internet-based wargamers. I wish you all the best success,and I am looking forward to SC2. Cheers!

LOL! Sure enough. As do: Parents, And priests & rabbis & mullahs and ministers, And nice or psychotic next-door neighbors, And the brothers and the sisters, And self-enclosed, self-supporting clans And groups and! Fanatics in peanut-shell littered grand-stands, Everywhere! LOL! EVERYTHING is deliberately, carefully culled out of the immense mass of information out there. EVERYBODY has preconceived notions about... well, just about everything, even In hallowed halls of Science! Why single out Professors? It's de rigueur to blame the wrack & woes On those who are... supposed To be... liberal? LOL! If the "facts" or... the gloves don't fit? You can't vote to convict! LOL! </font>

You seem to have confused the desire by those nations who wanted to end the war with those nations who started the war. Where are your pleas of sympathy for those who suffered and died in bombing raids by the Axis in Guernica, Warsaw, Belgrade, London, Conventry, Rotterdam, Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Minsk, etc, etc. . . As to the Atomic Bombs being dropped on Japan, please read the following: Why the Bombs Were Dropped on Japan Regrettably, the dropping of the two atomic bombs cost many lives. But consider this: Japan was engaged in a Total War of conquest. The surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was only the beginning. In Singapore, Hong Kong, and the Phillipines both Allied soldiers and civilians paid a high price in lives. Over 10,000 Allied soldiers lost their lives in the infamous "Bataan Death March". Japanese troops had murdered 250,000 Chinese civilians in the Rape of Nanking alone. By 1945, America was planning to invade the Japanese home islands. When one considers the huge loss of lives in the battles for Iwo Jima and Okinawa, it becomes apparent that the Japanese would have fought to the last man, woman and child on the mainland of Japan. For example: Okinawa was the largest amphibious invasion of the Pacific campaign and the last major campaign of the Pacific War. More ships were used, more troops put ashore, more supplies transported, more bombs dropped, more naval guns fired against shore targets than any other operation in the Pacific. More people died during the Battle of Okinawa than all those killed during the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Casualties totaled more than 38,000 Americans wounded and 12,000 killed or missing, more than 107,000 Japanese and Okinawan conscripts killed, and perhaps 100,000 Okinawan civilians who perished in the battle. [NOTE: The Americans suffered 36 ships destroyed, 368 ships damaged, and 5,000 sailors killed as the result of the Japanese employing 1,400 Kamikaze planes. What would the casualties have been to the American landing forces if the Japanese had had an opportunity to use the 12,700 Kamikaze planes that were waiting for the American forces that were to invade the Japanese home islands?] If the USA had not dropped the bombs, then before any invasion, you can bet that 1,000 plane bombing raids would have laid waste the cities of Japan, and the destruction and loss of life from this would have been horrendous, and far, far worse than that which resulted from the two atomic bombs. The Japanese High Command was training women and children to attack American soldiers on the beach and they were holding back over 12,000 Kamikaze planes with which to use against American ships and landing craft. Japan was gearing up to commit national suicide, and it was going to take with it every American soldier who stepped foot on Japanese soil. You can bet your bottom dollar that if there had been an invasion, not only would there have been hundreds of thousands of American deaths, but the Japanese would have lost millions of lives. It was well known to American leaders that Japan was NOT being run by a civilian government during the war. Instead, most power was divided between the Japanese Army and Navy, with each branch having its own sphere of influence. In fact there was a very intense rivalry between these two branches of the Japanese armed forces. The Americans knew that in order to end the war, they had to decisively convince both the Japanese Army and Naval High Commands that further resistance would be futile. It is no coincidence, therefore, that Hiroshima was the target for the 1st atomic bomb. This bomb was made of URANIUM and was nick-named Little Boy. For Operation Olympic, American forces would have landed against elements of the Second General Army. The defensive zone of the Second General Army was the western portion of Honshu and the islands of Shikoku and Kyushu. Within three days of being activated, on 18 April 1945, the Second General Army established its permanent headquarters in HIROSHIMA. The Second General Army commanded the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Area Armies (equivalent to a U.S. field army). Since the Japanese Second General Army would have been in control of ALL Japanese defensive forces fighting against the American invasion, and since its HQ was located in Hiroshima, then this is why it was targetted by the 1st Atomic Bomb. Hiroshima also contained important war matériel factories since it was the Japanese policy to build many of its industries near civilian population centres. It is also no coincidence that the second Atomic Bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. This bomb was made of PLUTONIUM, and was nick-named Fat Man, and was a much more explosive bomb (22 kilotons of TNT as opposed to 13) than the one dropped on Hiroshima. Nagasaki was a great industrial and commercial centre. In addition, it contained the venerated Japanese Naval Academy as well as being home to a major naval base. This naval base would have been used as a staging area for Japanese subs, suicide boats and ships that would have been used to attack American landing craft. Nagasaki was also where the world's most powerful battleship, the Yamato, was built in secret. Since Nagasaki contained a major naval base that could have been used as a staging area for attacks on American landing forces, and since it was the seat of the Japanese Naval Command, and since it was a major industrial and commerical centre, then it follows that this is the reason why a bomb was dropped on this city. The Japanese had prepared 12,700 Kamikaze planes, thousands of submarines and small attack boats, mines, suicide (manned) torpedoes, millions of soldiers and civilians, etc, etc to inflict the greatest possible death and carnage on American landing forces. Dropping the two bombs on Japan convinced the Japanese that further resistance was utterly futile. Ironically, the dropping of the bombs on Japan in fact SAVED the lives of millions of people, mostly Japanese. [ March 24, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

Sorry for the mistake. But my observations about Japan still hold. I would seriously read wider material than what was offered in your university courses. Some Profs have an odd way of distorting events. I attended university too, and survived despite what I learned.

I would second that opinion about getting your games into Walmart both in Canada and the USA. That store is ALWAYS packed with people. I always buy there because of their store policies. Volume, volume, volume. . .

Skanvak: Dear friend, I understand your feelings. You are Japanese, and of course you are proud of your heritage and history. Japan is a great country, and the Japanese (both culturally and militarily) have many fine attributes. The Japanese soldier was a formidable opponent. They had a code and lived by it, even unto death. . . However, it is unfortunate that the schools in Japan continue to downplay the real history of WW2. There is a new generation in Japan that has little, or no knowledge, of its true role and activities in WW2. This is not the fault of those Japanese, but it is the fault of the education system, and of those who seek to prepetrate a myth: that Japan was a victim and that the US was the aggressor. I know it is painful to face terrible things in the past. But I think Japan needs to do so, so that it will never happen again. Since WW2, Japan has become a model nation of a hard-working, family-oriented society, that has turned its back on war, as a way to resolve issues. My best advice in wanting to learn some real facts about WW2, would be to use google, and to look up many of things that have been discussed in this thread and more. There are many, many reliable sources on the web, and it can be a real education. Cheers! [ March 24, 2004, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

Martin: I understand your point of view. As a modder myself, I clearly understand the amount of work that goes into a computer game, so Hubert deserves payment for his hard work. But this is why retail is soooo important. It opens up the game and the company to thousands of others who have NEVER heard of you or the game before (even though the game has been out for 2 years). Many people still have never been on the internet. When I bought my copy of SC at EB, the sales clerk had never heard of Battlefront or SC before. I talked with him a bit about the game, and he seemed to be interested. He mentioned he was a chess player, and I told him the game was quite chess-like in its planning and detail. And I think he will be taking a second look at the game. Although you may not make as much at retail, just the increased sales, volume and word of mouth about the game and your company works wonders in the long run. This builds up a large customer base in the long run. There is a real demand for a strategic WW2 game. I wanted SC because it helps to fill that need (for me) for a strategic level WW2 game. BTW, the unit counters in the retail release are the best I have seen for this game so far. Cheers!

The problem in Japan since the end of the war is that Japan still tends to whitewash what it did during the war. Most school textbooks in Japan only pay passing comment on the real facts of the war and Japan's role of waging aggressive and brutal war. In fact, many textbooks claim that Japan was forced into the war and fought a defensive war against America. If Skanky is Japanese and/or he had studied in Japan, then I fully understand why he believes the things he does. Heck, Japan hasn't even come to grips nationally for what it did. Instead, by looking at the use of the A bomb, Japan has been magically transformed from being the aggressor to being a victim. While the world may mourn for the victims of the A Bomb, who mourns for all those dead Allied soldiers, Chinese, Pillipinos, Koreans, . . .

Hi: Well, you know the 'ol saying: Sell one item for $1 million or sell one million items for $1.00. That's why donut shops do so well. Who hasn't got a buck for a donut or a coffee? How much of the duty and shipping would you have received if I had bought the game online? Nada. But I would have been out of a big chunk of change. (But don't cry for me Argentina. . .) Now, since I have saved about $50.00, I also bought Combat Mission. See? I wound up buying two games instead of one (if I had bought SC online). Now that I have the game, I will be spreading info about the game via word of mouth. Others will do likewise. So everyone wins in the long run. BTW, the version I bought is patched to v1.07 and has all the latest graphics, etc already built into the game. Cheers! [ March 23, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

Well, I got SC at EB today. It cost $19.95 Canadian. Worth the wait Apparently my local EB sold all of their SC games in two days. . .

I tend to agree along these lines. Research into atomic research should be allowed, but it should cost the researching country a lot of resources as per your post. The blast should be restricted to one hex, obliterating everything in the hex. There should also be chemical/biological agents too, such as mustard gas. Churchill had planned to use it on the Germans if they had invaded England. However, there should be a very HIGH cost politically at home and internationally, if they are used. The penalties could range from the targeted country getting two FREE shots with that agent (if it has any) against the offending party, and international condemnation and withdrawl of some allies from that alliance, to domestic disruption and/or fall in supply levels, to the offending party losing a turn do to a shocked population, etc.. .

If we were to make a WWII game that included only what the participants actually did, then why even bother playing as the Axis? They will lose, right? Most people realize Hitler made a lot of mistakes. He didn't build U-boats early enough; he failed to follow up on high tech weapons (the Germans actually had the world's first jet plane in 1937 -but Hitler couldn't see a use for it!). The Germans had developed long range bombers that could reach America in 1942. Hitler's blunder of attacking the USSR meant shelving all those plans. Does this mean the player is condemned to such actions too? And the Brits were close to losing the Battle of Britain, but Goering switched targets (from airfields to cities). I think a few more options (within reason) should be built into the game. The Germans came very close to winning the European war by 1941. Only Hiter's stupid interference lost any chance of that happening. Any reading of history will clearly show many options that are open to a clever Axis player. I think other reaserch options should be available, but these alternatives (such as jet planes, A-Bombs, long range bomers, etc) should be very expensive to acquire. Cheers! [ March 23, 2004, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

Exactly. I agree.

I think SC2 could be designed with other historical events in mind. It is a little known fact that Hitler had every intention of attacking the United States in WW2. These plans were developed quite early in the war. Germany had plans to use the Luftwaffe for attacking the United States. Plans for approaching the Western Hemisphere began in 1937 and as early as October 20 1940, Hitler called for the occupation of the Azores and the Cape Verde Islands in the Atlantic from Portugal for use as bases for their long-range aircraft [with which to attack American coastal cities] Also in 1940, German diplomats negotiated extensively with Spain and Vichy France to attain bases in Casablanca, Dakar, and the Canary Islands. In order to strike at America from these bases several planes were designed by major German companies, including Focke-Wulf with the Ta 400; Junkers with the Ju 390; and Messerschmitt with the Me 264. The Ta 400 was never built. But the second prototype of the Ju 390 actually flew from "Mont de Marsan on the Atlantic coast of France, near Bordeaux, [and] it once approached to within 20 km (12.4 miles) of New York before returning safely to base, thus validating the operational concept" (Ford, Germany's Secret Weapons, p.30). The four-engine Me 264, initially designed in 1937 and 1938, and referred to inside the German government as the "Amerika-Bomber" or the "New York Bomber", had a range of nine thousand miles and was capable of carrying a five-ton load of bombs to New York, of carrying a small load to the mid-West, or of flying reconnaissance missions over the West Coast, and then returning to Germany without intermediate bases. The Me 264 actually made its first flight in December 1942, when it flew 30 hours non-stop to New York and returned safely to Europe (Ford, Germany's Secret Weapons, p.30). These long-range bombers were designed to bring Germany's new air force directly into the skies over America. The war, however, ended before any of these planes could be used to actually bomb American cities. Even towards the end of World War II Germany had drawn up plans to attack American cities using a U-boat and rocket. Roger Ford, in his ensightful book Germany's Secret Weapons in World War II (Brown Books, London: 2000), states that Germany had plans to use a submerged U-boat to launch a V-2 rocket at New York city. This was to be accomplished by towing a vertical, self-contained chamber behind the submarine. This plan had "reached a fairly advanced stage by 1945, with several containers having been completed and tested at the Vulkan shipyard in Stettin. Known as Test-Stand XII, and conceived apparently by Volkswagan in late 1944, this was aimed at the bombardment of New York" (p.81). [ March 22, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

I just contacted EB and SC arrives on Monday afternoon. It was worth the wait. . .

Excellent - thanks for the reply. I'll keep my eyes out - there's an EB just down the street from me. . .

For us poor Canucks, the exchange rate, shipping, and duty, takes a big chunk of change. Why spend $70 for a $25 game?? The developer and publisher do not get the shipping and duty fees, so I'd rather have the extra money to buy more great wargames. There are a lot of wargamers in Canada - publishers should find a way of getting their games into that market. I just find it odd that Spain, Germany and France all have local access to buy the game, but two years after the game's release, Canada (where the developer lives) still does not! :confused: I can understand the Theory of Relativity, but this situation has me greatly confused. </font>

All wargames should come with several editors such as a unit editor. This way players can tweak the game to their liking and difficulty.

For us poor Canucks, the exchange rate, shipping, and duty, takes a big chunk of change. Why spend $70 for a $25 game?? The developer and publisher do not get the shipping and duty fees, so I'd rather have the extra money to buy more great wargames. There are a lot of wargamers in Canada - publishers should find a way of getting their games into that market. I just find it odd that Spain, Germany and France all have local access to buy the game, but two years after the game's release, Canada (where the developer lives) still does not! :confused: I can understand the Theory of Relativity, but this situation has me greatly confused. [ March 20, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Kelly's Heroes ]

Well, I would do my part - but still nothing on Strategic Command being available in Canada. Does Battlefront know what stores or where SC will be available? Odd that the developer (Hubert) lives in Quebec, but we can't find the game in Canada. Have a nice day.

pzgndr: Thanks for the reply. I'll be checking everything out. Glad to hear the AI will give me a run for my money. And the good thing about editors is, a person can make things even tougher.

Les: Great, I'm looking forward to getting thrashed by the AI. Nothing I like better than getting beat by the AI. Means I got some learn' and fightn' to do - heh That also means, if the default campaigns are tough, then (if I know wargamer design methodology), then the user campaigns should be even tougher. Best of all, with the editor, a person can tweak things to really make a tough challenge. I've got tons of games and have played wargames for years - haven't burnt out yet (fingers crossed). It's just so rare to get a strategic-level game, that I am sure to get enjoyment from it for a while.