Zwollo2003

All, I would like to use mods of Panther D early for Panther D late (for some reason, D early is popular and modded very often whereas D late is modded hardly at all). Can I do it merely by renumbering .bmps? Or are there differences between 3d models of both types which do not allow that? And if it is technically possible, will the skins developed for D early applied to D late be historically inaccurate? Thanks in advance, Zwolo

David, OK, thanks, that's about the extent of my knowledge too - I know the uniform was used my many PzGren units, and that may include Grossdeutschland, but then again it may not. I agree the uniform looks cool, but my personal favourite is splinter camo, which I don't think anyone has modded for CMBB or CMAK (I mean summer version). I thought a mod like that could surface in this thread, since GD wore it as much as anyone, but alas not. I can't draw if my life depended on it, so I guess I will have to wait until someone else does it. In any event thanks, it's a great looking mod of yours anyway. Zwolo

DavidI, Are you sure Grossdeutschland infantry wore Sturmartillerie jackets? I have seen period photos with GD men wearing Feldbluse or camouflage jackets (quite a lot of camouflage jackets, there was even a splinter camouflage jacket mod for CMBO by Michael Dorosh specifically representing GD). I don't recall photos with their wearing Sturmartillerie stuff. By the way, your mod reminds me very much of photographs of Pz Lehr soldiers in Normandy, striking similarity (except for cuffbands, of course). Zwolo

PzIV looks very good, thanks for a great mod. By the way, I also liked the Panther D early you did a while ago. Did you think of modding other Panthers as well? Cheers, Zwolo

Do you plan to do a PzIVH or J? The two recent mods by Gurra and Andrew TF are both very good, but it would be great if you could do an H or J as well. The Wirbelwind and Ostwind were absolutely brilliant! Cheers, Zwollo

ZIS-3, SU-76, SU-76i. I have looked at the page you linked. If I am reading the table correctly, it shows constant penetration at 100m and 500 m. but nothing afterwards as if the round does not work beyond 500m at all. I am inclined to think this is a HEAT round, with penetration unaffected by distance but likely to be inaccurate at longer ranges. Also, if it is true, then the designation shown on that site is probably a simple typo (UBP-354M is an existing designation of a HEAT shell, with BP 350M HEAT projectile). Did the Soviets field a HEAT round as early as 1942? I don't know... BTW on the same site there is more penetration data at: http://krieg.wallst.ru/frames-p/panzerrung.html Zwolo

No, what you wrote means "UBR-354M". This is a designation of a projectile + shell combination (BR-xxx were projectile designations, VBR-xxx propellant designations). For example, BR-350B would be part of UBR 350B. I am not familiar with BR-354M or BR -354B though, maybe someone else knows to what ammunition those designations refer. Or perhaps there is a typo and your source meant UBR-354N, not M (UBR-354N was a 76mm BR-354N - a tungsten projectile - together with the appropriate shell)? Zwolo

Panzer, you did your test with US 75mm firing APCBCHE, a full-bore round with large HE burster. The behind armour effect of it in real life would be much, much better than the APCR (BR-365 P or "Tungsten" in CMBB parlance is an APCR). APCR works by using a hard-core, subcaliber penetrator sheathed in light metal body.If the APCBCHE penetrates, it makes a big hole, pushes a big slug of hot metal inside the tank and then explodes. You rarely need more than one penetration to KO a tank that way. On the other hand if the APCR penetrates you have a small tungsten core bouncing around the tank which may or may not be enough to knock the tank out. I don't exactly remember the dimensions of the penetrator but it could be 1/3 or 1/2 of the caliber. So for 76mm gun the penetrator would be similar to a 25mm or 37mm full caliber round. In real life the small behind armour effect of APCR was widely noted and, in addition to their cost, prevented them from becoming the main armour-piercing ammunition of the war. This difference in BAE is modeled in CMBB. So it seems the problem is not poor BAE effect of Soviet projectiles, but the Soviet ability (or lack thereof) to penetrate Tiger with rounds other than T. Which is the previous subject of this discussion, before the BAE issue. Cheers, Zwolo.

Gents, It looks like everybody in this thread (and several previous ones on the same subject) agrees that the StuGs with 80mm front should be vulnerable to the Soviet 76.2mm up to 500m and is too strong as currently modeled in the game. However, there is at least some information/opinions floating around which support the calculations of the good folks at Battlefront. For example Thomas Jentz, who is by all accounts a very solid researcher, has repeatedly claimed that 80mm front Stugs and PzIVs were invulnerable to Soviet 76mm at normal combat ranges (reference - Osprey books "Sturmgeschuetz III and IV 1942 -45" and "Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf. G, H and J 1942-45", pp. 21 and 20, respectively; when talking about Sherman's 75mm by invulnerability at normal combat ranges Jentz meant no penetration after 100mm; I assume that with regard to the 76.2 he probably meant a similar performance). Another example: Niklas Zetterling, "Kursk 1943. A statistical analysis".While not a tank data book per se, it is a very well researched piece. Penetration tables at p. 213 show a weak penetration chance by 76.2 against PzIV front at around 250 m. Penetration estimates at p.213 credit the 76.2 mm. with 61mm.penetration only. And if you look for sources giving penetration estimates rather than direct comparisons vs. PzIV armour, there is even more data suggesting that 76mm could punch through 80mm only at a much closer distance than 500m. If you look at the best sources available on the Internet,www.battlefield.ru and Guns vs Ammo they both show that 80mm penetration is reached at around 100m mark, not further. This is confirmed by the Russian's own estimates I have seen outside the Internet (my source here is "Entsyklopedia Otechestvoii Artillerii"). Exception to that is the APCR (BR 354P) which should indeed penetrate out to 500 m. But they seem to be capable of doing so in the game, the problem seems more like their availability. So, summing up this rather long rant, I think there is a substantial amount of evidence (or at least some evidence) supporting the thesis that German 80mm fronts were proof against 76.2 Soviet guns beyond a very short range (Tungsten excepted). I am actually a little surprised that everyone here agrees otherwise. Having 80 mm Stugs and PzIV invulnerable to T-34s frontally is an attractive hypotesis in one aspect, namely it can explain some of the Germans' more lopsided exchange ratios vs the Soviets (ref. Prokhorovka - over 6:1 in tank losses!)and generally very good performance of the Stugs. It is difficult to explain otherwise, unless you subscribe to the theory that (1) all Germs were uebermenschen or (2) all Sovs were complete oafs - neither of which I believe. Replicating LSSAH's performance at Prokhorovka is difficult enough in CMBB. I don't see how you could do it without significant edge in equipment. Cheers, Zwolo