Mad Russian
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Posts posted by Mad Russian
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There were instances in the Leningrad area where the trenchlines were barely 50 meters apart.
This has to be the exception rather than the norm though. Not every place would have cover to allow that happen.
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I am not saying that JasonC placed the HMG facing wrong way, or that TacAI did that, or that the HMG turned itself because of some problem with alignment of the friendly map edge - I don't know and it does not matter anyway. Having said that, please read SteveP's posts carefully (esp. the one about the HMG firing on the Russians from the set-up onwards). From that I understand that the HMG was facing the wrong way already on turn 1, as opposed to TacAI realigning it by turn 3 or 4.Originally posted by Zwollo2003:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Panther Commander:
I don't believe that Jason turned the HMG around, and I'm not suggesting that anyone else thinks that either.
Zwolo </font>
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I don't believe that Jason turned the HMG around, and I'm not suggesting that anyone else thinks that either. In the past, I have noticed that the computer AI will have their men facing their own lines. While doing playtesting for my scenarios, there are often times when you have to adjust lines of sight. Sometimes you can see an enemy unit when the scenario opens. It has been during some of these situations that I find tanks, infantry or guns all facing the wrong way. When I check the scenario, in the editor, they are just fine.
Something about the AI facing is a bit off. Even then though, you are moving for about 4 turns, at least, before coming into LOS of that HMG. Plenty of time for the AI to turn it around.
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315 from the other side. I took the German force against my own defense. Knowing where everything was, gave the computer a +3 CEB to give it as close to a human but still not there yet affect, and attacked.
I did win the scenario on POINTS. I never got close to the flags and it was only getting worse as the defense collapsed in around me.
The BIG achilles heel for this scenario from a German point of view as we have all said is too little German infantry.
As John pointed out, the addition of a single German infantry platoon will allow you to play the fire and maneuver game. A single platoon does not.
For those that find 315 easy from the Russian side give it a try from the German side. Let us all know if you get the flags.
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It certainly won't hurt your chances, that you have my entire defense laid out for you to read, now will it?Originally posted by John_d:Panther Commander,
following my challenge on the other thread, I'll hopefully be sending a setup of 315 with myself as the Germans sometime today, workload permitting. I'll leave the scenario defaults as they are to see how difficult it really is. May the best man (with the best troops) win!!
While this is nothing like a "real" playtest, since both sides know the forces involved AND you know exactly how I will set my defense, I still think I can win this battle. That should show how balanced to the Russian side this scenario really is for H2H play.
Know this, about this fight, John, when I kill your infantry I win. It comes down to that. Wile your tanks can stand off and pound the village, without infantry sooner or later they will have to come in and occupy that flag. When they do I'll be waiting.
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I fully understand that. It was Jason that went into the realm of balance, etc. with this request...Originally posted by junk2drive:SteveP and SteveO
These are supposed to be training simulations, not scenarios. IMO Jason may have given the student some advantages in his design.
SteveP the MG and StuG may be facing the wrong way to buy some time for the student, not because Jason doesn't know how to make a battle.
More 315 AARs please, with infantry-AT vs. tank engagement details.
Also, those who played it I'd love an assessment of the following. Against a human rather than the reckless AI, do you think you could win easily as the Russians? If not easily, sometimes? How much would change and why?
An assessment of the how the scenario would do against a human player now involves playbalance and is no longer just about training. He asked for opinions and he is getting them.
So far I don't see a problem.
As a scenario designer the first decision I have to make is whether the scenario will be for vs the AI or H2H play. I have rarely seen a scenario that will do both. The same applies here. These training scenarios that Jason has put out aren't balanced. I've yet to see one that wasn't an all or nothing.
Take a look at what Jason is trying to accomplish here; there is an assualt against a single HMG across open ground, attacks against a single StuG, setting up a basic minefield and AT defense with no tanks or ATG's. These scenarios aren't balanced and to be honest with you if they were balanced they would lose alot of their value as training scenarios. There is a goal here that is sometimes hard to attain but always worth the experience gained.
Now, when Jason asks for opinions on how a scenario would do H2H that is a horse of a different color. Now playbalance does come into affect and the playbalance on all of these for H2H is off. Sometimes not far but IMO off.
Jason thinks that 315 would make a good H2H scenario. We won't know that until somebody tries it that way.
I really don't think so but I could be wrong. That happens on occasion...
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Um yes. Every grenade in CM is potentially an antitank grenade. They will take out a tank within 30 meters of ANY infantry unit armed with grenades.Originally posted by JasonC:Um no, they have no anti-tank grenades at all, only molotovs and the pioneer satchel charges. The latter are excellent infantry AT weapons certainly, but limited to 30m range.
The arty doesn't have to kill many it just needs to pin anybody close enough to the tanks to toss one. The German infantry is not remotely numerous enough to go first, true. But with most in cover and others risked only one at a time, they can follow the shells and make Russians unmask. Once a unit shows itself, its life expectancy (good order, anyway) under 4 tanks firing direct at 100-150m, is very low.
I do think with proper play the Russians can hold. But it is not as trivial as you present it. Just one of those Panzers can easily "eat" 30 infantry, without breaking a sweat.
That is a lot of anti armor fire power.
Molotov cocktails in CM are a 4th of July firecracker. Not worth much against tanks. Grenades on the other hand, especially those delivered by leaders can be deadly.
I never said it was trivial. I guess I should clarify as well, what I meant is that, I feel, that I personally, would not lose this position to the attack force you have in this scenario.
I think it is far easier for the Soviet forces to win this fight than it ever would be for the Germans. At some point the tanks have to come in. When they do they die. They may well eat 30 Russian soldiers but it only takes one antitank grenade thrown by a pinned green squad with one man left in it to kill one of the four tanks. The attack force is too fragile.
[ December 05, 2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Panther Commander ]
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That is all well and good but the Germans are short on infantry and the Russians have more than 40 antitank grenades and 16 satchel charges. If I'm a betting man I bet on the defense in this scenario every time.Originally posted by JasonC:PC - thanks, that is perfect.
On the assessment that "this defense will not lose to that (attacking) force", I agree it can hold but I doubt the ability of most CM players to fight it correctly against a human commanding the Germans. With the 105 shells walking in first, infantry covered by tank overwatch following the shells, picking only one route in, buttoned AC leading the tanks to spot minefields, etc. The Russians have 150 men and the terrain is tight. But I do think they definitely need the AT mines against a human.
That 105mm will not kill many Russians. The shortage of infantry will force the armor to try to advance into the town unsupported. Do that and the German loses again.
That's the way I see it.
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Historical Scenario Design Group. We specialize in scenarios that are historically based. I know we skipped the "D". IMHO,HSG just rolls off your tongue better than HSDG does.Originally posted by Tagwyn:What is "HSG?" Tag
Some of them are quite good, even if I do say so myself, and I just did...
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ROFL!!! You were the one that challenged me. From that I assumed that you thought you could win.Originally posted by John_d:What makes u think that I'm capable of beating you?!
I reckon we should do 315 from Jason's Russian Training Scenario Pack. I've been reading your notes on it and it would be interesting to see what happens when 2 human players go head to head. And I'd be interested to see if your claim that the Germans can never win this will hold up!
Should I send the setup to the address on your profile? We almost share a birthday, btw
You send me whatever setup you want as long as it's not too big and not CMBO and we'll do it.
"Walk forty paces with loaded pistols at the 40th pace turn and fire. May the best man win."
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You might try the HSG hero series a try.
Congressional Medal of Honor (CMH)
Hero of the Soviet Union (HSU)
Knight's Cross (KC)
Victoria Cross (VC)
They are designed to be to beat the AI. Of course you have to give the computer a computer experience bonus (CEB) but what the heck. Nobody's perfect. Least of all the AI.
Should be plenty of guys around that can tell you if the AI will fight in these or not.
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Ah, you want a cheap victory against an inexperienced player do you?Originally posted by John_d:Maybe the only way to resolve our differences is on the field of battle!
Send me a setup as long as it isn't too big...I only have a 1.1. Also, I no longer have CMBO. I gave it to a 14 year old boy for him to start playing wargames.
The gauntlet is thrown. Now pick it up or slink away in the night!!
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Part 2 AAR for 315:
You asked for it you got it. Although I did say YOU should write the book not me...
Position is facing west. My right flank is on the north side of the map and my left flank on the south side.
House #1: in the woods where the road enters the village from the west.
House #2: the next house to the east of house 1. It sits on the north side of the road.
House #3: the house just to the east of house 2. Same side of the road.
House #4: next house in the string on the north side of the road. It is the house where the woods come into the village and almost touch it.
House #5: the large house sitting in the north west corner of the intersection.
House #6: the house sitting right across the intersection from house 5. Still on the north side. It is in the northeast corner of the intersection.
House #7: this house is the one directly north of house #6.
House #8: due east of house #6.
House #9: due south of house #5. This house sits in the southwest corner of the intersection.
Rubble: this is in the southeast corner of the intersection. It is the only rubble that will come into play.
House #10: south of the rubble.
House #11: larger house east of the rubble.
Turn 10: The AC moved onto the mines and was killed. Surprisingly the first tank went right through both the mines and the backup infantry set to attack any armor moving through. The other tanks after seeing the AC killed and seeing the other tank attacked have set back and are firing into the buildings with my men in them.
House #1 has a green rifle squad hiding in it with a covered arc out to 30 meters to cover the minefield and the road on both sides of it. The tank drove around the mines on the north side and continued on it’s way. Unit in house 1 did target the tank but did not attack it. The tank then drove by green infantry in both houses 2 and 3. Also hiding and with covered arcs to defend the road. All three infantry squads came unhidden. The ones in houses 2 and 3 attacked. The target tank didn’t target anyone or fire back. It continued on to sit in front of house 4. The regular engineer in house 4 targeted the tank.
Green squad in house #1 routes to the southeast, away from the German forces.
Turn ends.
Turn 11: Killed the tank that broke through. Infantry riding on the tanks assaulted the forward position. Two of the three squads ran into ambushes from men I had in the houses. I have my right flank HMG broken. All other troops are functional.
Engineer squads in both houses 5 & 9 target the tank. They both throw satchel charges at it. The squad in house 9 is credited with the kill. Crew did not get out. The tank had targeted an engineer squad about 90 meters to it’s south. House 5 is 20 meters from the tank’s location. House 9 is 24 meters from the tank. Both engineers had covered arc’s that included the tanks location when it moved there.
Turn 12: My right flank got hit with an artillery barrage. It broke both my engineer squad and HGM as well as the German infantry squad that was attacking. German tanks are not moving into the village.
The other 3 tanks are firing at my infantry that came unhidden to attack the tank. I immediately put everybody back on hide. The green infantry squad in house 2 has panicked due to the tank fire.
Turn 13: I lost a green squad at the west road entrance. The Germans lost 2 squads ambushed on my right flank. I have moved an engineer squad up to cover the mines at the west road entrance through the trees.
The panicked squad breaks into the open and is killed. However, I sneak an engineer squad into the woods immediately to the south of house #1. The engineer squad doesn’t move into the house, but, uses it to block LOS to the location of the tanks on the far side. He goes into hide with a covered arc out to 30 meters that covers the road with the mines in it.
Turn 14: The green rifle squad at the end of my string of mines on the right flank was broken. The Germans have a way into the position now. The green squad wasn’t killed just routed into the position. I am repositioning the HMG on the other side of the defense to take the Germans under fire as they come into the position. The engineer squad guarding the right flank road into the village (north side) was panicked by artillery fire and is routing back into the position.
The green squad panicking next to the minefield will allow German armor the ability to move into the village unopposed at the moment. Two German tanks had targeted the squad. I didn’t know until they opened fire on him that they had spotted him. He had been in a firefight with German infantry and I wasn’t thinking about the tanks intervening in this fight. DUH!!
Turn 15: The second German tank has entered the position.
The tank drove down the front of my mines straight to the opening in the minefield and crossed into the village. The gap in the minefield is 40 meters from house #3.
The tank moves into the minefield and just sits there. It has targeted the broken green squad on the other side of the map.
Turn 16: The second German tank has entered the position.
The tank moves forward so that the west edge of the vehicle lines up with the east edge of house #3. It stops 27 meters from the house. So far the green squad and leader have not
targeted the tank. I give them both attack orders and change their covered arcs to include the possible movement route of the tank if it should decide to come further into the position.
I sneaked the engineer squad in the woods by house #1 into house #1 just in case. Gave him a hide command and a 30 meter covered arc to cover the mines and the road.
Turn 17: One German tank is now sitting in the intersection. Another is trying to get into the position. The third one is sitting just inside my mine belt on the right flank. All German infantry that I have an LOS to is dead. Time to go tank hunting now. There are 4 engineer squads within assault distance of that tank on the intersection. He shouldn’t live through the next turn.
The German tank moves around the position in house #3. The squad throws a molotov cocktail at it but misses. The Plt. Leader gets a Top Hit but it was not damaging. The tank then drives on past them and onto the road. It follows the road east and stops right in the middle of the intersection. It doesn’t target anyone or anything. Distance to the intersection from house #5 is 30 meters, house #6 is 28 meters and house #9 is 26 meters. There is also an engineer squad in house #10 that is 44 meters from the tank. All have the tank under covered arc.
The last German tank has decided to try to move by house 1.
Neither tank targets any of the engineer squads. All of the engineer squads that are in range target the nearest tank. The engineer squad in house #10 I give run orders to for the rubble next to the tank. Also with a covered arc.
Hit the “GO” button and two German tanks go up in flames. The engineer squad at house #1 blows the tank to pieces! Large fireball as the satchel charge takes it out.
Turn 18: Killed two tanks and the German 50mm mortar crew. Only one tank left. The one trying to enter the position from the road to the west and the one sitting on the intersection were both knocked out. Three down, one to go.
All of the engineer squads near the tank in the intersection throw satchel charges. The tank doesn’t blow up but is killed outright. Once again the engineer squad in building #9 gets the credit for it.
Turn 19: Game auto surrendered. Only one tank and a single infantryman was left of the German attack force.
Conclusions:
Could you win as easily against a human? Yes, this defense will not be broken by this force. It would win every time!
What would I change?
I would make one of the squads of engineers green,
Or add a German assault gun with 150mm gun.
Or take away all but about 5 of the mines. You don’t need them for this fight. Block the main open area to the west of the village with mines. Cover the roads through the trees with ambush sites and back them up with solid control of the intersection from multiple points and you will still win this fight most of the time vs the AI.
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But John what you are describing is almost every recon ever done in the history of warfare. You take small groups of men because they can move around virtually unseen. They sit in a place that makes them virtually undetectable. Don't think of the sniper as one guy. Think of them as a small patrol. Besides if you know your friend is going to do this to you counter it with a few snipers of your own sitting on the OB's waiting for him to arrive. One shot later and the problem is solved. Added bonus is your sniper controls the objective now.Originally posted by John_d:I don't have a problem with leaving small groups behind during a retreat- I often do it myself. It only becomes a problem b/c of the the scoring system in CM. What I object to is buying units and positioning them with the sole purpose of remaining hidden, not engaging the enemy at all and denying the enemy the flag. Half squads and FO aren't perhaps as much as an issue b/c they are fairly easy to find and root out, but a hidden sniper with a cover arc so small that he won't ever open fire? Chances are you'll never find him and it won't occur to you to look b/c the fog of war function will lead you to believe that you control the flag. You'll only notice when a flag that you thought was under your control appears as uncontrolled, b/c there is a sniper in a ridiculous place where you can't see him. Now, I amm sure that this kind of thing happens in war, and I do it when there are no flags involved. But surely it is gamey when the position of a single sniper who doesn't fire a shot determines the outcome of the game in a battalion sized battle?
P.S, what was that comment about the captured tanks about? I'm assuming you are refering to tactics where enemy tanks are used at the front of an armoured column to fool the enemy into thinking that the column is friendly. A similar tactic was used in situations such as the capture of the Kalach bridge near Stalingrad where Russian tanks were driven across a German held bridge without a shot being fired b/c the Russians had somehow convinced the Germans that their tanks were captured and being driven to a training school. Pretty impressive. Although as far as I'm aware, it is impossible to do anything like this on CM- so what were you refering to?
That entire list of examples are things that would be considered "gamey" in CM. It is an example of how men in "Real Life" situations will do anything to win. ANYTHING!
The wilder and more successful it is the more they are rewarded. Read some of the citations for the Knight's Cross, Congressional Medal of Honor, Hero of the Soviet Union or Victoria Cross winners. They are full of the types of things we are talking about here.
Shameless plug here...HSG has scenarios on all of those awards.
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What would you think of leaving behind artillery spotters in church towers when your own troops have withdrawn from the area? Or what about setting cover arcs to only 20 meters that will then trigger an ambush? What about leading a column of American/Russian/German tanks with a captured tank?
The Germans did leave FO's behind in Normandy. I look at your example of a company commander sending a small patrol to the objective. It's not his fault you don't take care of your own points. Everybody used whatever tactics got the job done, and that includes every nation I have ever read about using captured vehicles to try to gain an advantage when leading the way into enemy territory.
I personally, obviously by now, don't consider this a gamey tactic. If you don't want the points, and he does, what is wrong with his moving forces to the objective? How would you feel if the offending unit was a halfsquad, that still didn't take part in the fighting? Besides the obvious, that he got YOUR own points that you didn't take care of.
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110
FINALLY!! What I was doing wrong is having EVERYBODY in sneak mode after crossing the fence. It doesn't matter if the HMG opens fire or not if you have at least one unit sitting up watching when he does.
I usually take the left most unit and rush the shellhole on his side. He is about the closest to one.
The HMG opens fire and the guys not sneaking return fire immediately. Even if it is only one. At least now the shooter is ID'd.
It's all downhill from there.
Hope this helps.
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Here is your AAR for 315:
Set all of my daisy chain mines out in the open ground to the west of the position. These can be seen and will be avoided by German armor. I have then put AT mines on all roads leading into town. The green rifle plt. is set up on the west side of the village around where the road moves through the trees right next to the house.
An engineer plt. is backing them up on their left. The other engineer plt. is in the buildings around the intersection.
Position is facing west. My right flank is on the north side of the map and my left flank on the south side.
Contact turn 5. I can see German armor on the road.
Turn 8: German infantry is moving towards my right. German tanks are sitting in a group not moving. An AC is moving slowly towards the town on the road.
Turn 9: German AC moved up just beside the mine I have on the road. A tank has also moved up alongside the AC. German infantry seems to be going to test my defense on my right flank. I have an HMG and two engineer squads near where the lead German squad is moving.
Turn 10: The AC moved onto the mines and was killed. Surprisingly the first tank went right through both the mines and the backup infantry set to attack any armor moving through. The other tanks after seeing the AC killed and seeing the other tank attacked have set back and are firing into the buildings with my men in them.
Turn 11: Killed the tank that broke through. Infantry riding on the tanks assaulted the forward position. Two of the three squads ran into ambushes from men I had in the houses. I have my right flank HMG broken. All other troops are functional.
Turn 12: My right flank got hit with an artillery barrage. It broke both my engineer squad and HGM as well as the German infantry squad that was attacking. German tanks are not moving into the village.
Turn 13: I lost a green squad at the west road entrance. The Germans lost 2 squads ambushed on my right flank. I have moved an engineer squad up to cover the mines at the west road entrance through the trees.
Turn 14: The green rifle squad at the end of my string of mines on the right flank was broken. The Germans have a way into the position now. The green squad wasn’t killed just routed into the position. I am repositioning the HMG on the other side of the defense to take the Germans under fire as they come into the position. The engineer squad guarding the right flank road into the village (north side) was panicked by artillery fire and is routing back into the position.
Turn 15: The second German tank has entered the position.
Turn 17: One German tank is now sitting in the intersection. Another is trying to get into the position. The third one is sitting just inside my mine belt on the right flank. All German infantry that I have an LOS to is dead. Time to go tank hunting now. There are 4 engineer squads within assault distance of that tank on the intersection. He shouldn’t live through the next turn.
Turn 18: Killed two tanks and the German 50mm mortar crew. Only one tank left. The one trying to enter the position from the road to the west and the one sitting on the intersection were both knocked out. Three down, one to go.
Turn 19: Game auto surrendered. Only one tank, the 105mm FO and a single infantryman was left of the German attack force.
I had 28 casualties and 9 killed. With the surrender I won a Total Victory.
I have saved game files if anyone is intersted.
This is an excellent scenario showing that mines are best used as deterents and not killers. You use your mines to deny areas of the map to the enemy and channel him where you want him to go.
In this scenario only the AC was killed by the mine it ran over. Not a single tank ran over a mine, but in avoiding them they moved right into the kill zones I had set up for them.
As an old combat engineer I REALLY like the engineer scenarios...
[ December 04, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Panther Commander ]
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John_D I guess I shouldn't mention here that I recommend using crews for that same purpose?
I have written an article on scoring at The Proving Grounds here:
http://the-proving-grounds.com/tactics_results.html?sku=32
That talks about people forgetting to garrison their flags. Crews/snipers/HT's, whatever it takes to help control that flag is worth it.
Much better than leaving it uncontrolled at the end of the game.
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The only part of that I disagree with is that Lee almost always listened to Jackson.Originally posted by JasonC:On Jackson, he died after Chancellorsville, not "Charolte" anything. It was not his campaign, Lee was in command. He simply commanded the flanking corps. It got them a won battle but hardly a won campaign let alone a won war. Hooker made it a fight after Jackson got the drop on them, and the Union withdrew in good order the night Jackson was shot. There isn't the slightest evidence his death had any affect on the outcome of the war. The rebs invades the north afterward, successfully at first, but lost Gettysburg. Longstreet gave sound advice there but Lee didn't listen to it - Jackson could not have done anything more than Longstreet did.
IF and only if Jackson had sided with Longstreet then things might have been different.
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That's the problem with a trench...whether it is full or not you have to ASSUME it is and attack it.
At least from where I sit you do. I'm not good enough to assume the trench is empty only to have him open fire on me as I go blissfully on my merry way... :mad:
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Cost is a relative issue Jason. The cost of a sniper vs the half squad has to measured in firepower as well.
A lot of the time I don't feel I have extra infantry to lose. That half squad is at lower morale and easier to kill than any other time during the battle too.
Just a thought.
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I think once you start to area fire the trench you short rush a squad. If the MG doesn't fire at that squad you advance the rest of them as well. All you are doing at that point is gaining surrender bonus points for the HMG crew.Originally posted by junk2drive:I was able to get a 50/50 on 110.
Left squad to the left house, 2nd squad between that and the trees, 3rd and CO to the trees, right squad to the house on the right close to the trench. I then area fired all at the trench. About half way to 20 the game auto ceasefired with the MG panicked in the trench.
Had I known or seen the MG in trouble I would have advanced the right squad to the flag.
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Tried 111 this morning. Took the trench with no losses.
I split the command. One Plt. going along the road with an HMG. The other Plt. going up the right side of the map into the woods over there. This was to force the defense to take on two seperate targets on different axis. As I sneaked past the fence to my assault positions I hit the trench line with smoke from the mortar and advanced with both platoons.
I put an HMG in the last house and one in the woods on the left. The company commander went into the house. Mortar was on the left by the woods with a view of almost the entire map.
Took the trench without losses by about turn 12 so I decided to after the other German position. I never did get close enough to ID him. I kept trying to pin him with area fire but couldn't get his exact location like you can with a trench. Either way with about 4 more turns I would have gotten him as well.
I had one man killed.
Fire and move was getting Russian soldiers closer and closer to him. The Germans had to be getting nervous over there...
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My 1.1 has a hard time even moving around the map. There is no way I can play this monster until I upgrade next year. Looking forward to fighting it out then though.Originally posted by r000:thanks for the nice scenario... it is really BIG!
and the map is definitely beautiful...
will probably need a week or more to get into it. i would be interested how well other computers are coping with the scenario. it tends to get a little bit sluggish on my 1.6 centrino thingie...
Russian Training Scenarios
in Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin
Posted
What REALLY upsets me about this is that the HMG tore me apart while facing the WRONG way!!!
AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! :mad: