Terif

Hmm...lets do the math: May 12, 1940 means Germany collected 8 times mpps + startmpps. That is at approximately: Germany: 9 x 120 = 1080mpp + Poland/LC/Denmark: ~5 x 50 mpp = 250 mpp (depends on when they got conquered, so can be a bit more or less mpps...) + Plunder for 3 countries: maximum is 3 x 350 = 1050 (minimum is 750) Everything together Germany can have collected 1080 + 250 + 1050 = 2380 mpp (more or less - but lets say Germany got really lucky, so it will be close to maximum...). vs 3 AFs + 1 tank + 2 tech chits + bank: 1200 + 325 + 500 + 700 = 2725 (+ operating/reinforcing) This doesnt fit together... So first question is: Are you sure you have counted everything correct (e.g. has he really 6 AFs ? Germany already starts with 3 AFs. You can check the actual number in the report screen) and is it the 1939 Fall Weiss scenario (perhaps wrong/different scenario started ?) ? If yes, then you really should be more than suspicious...some tech advances could be with 1 chit each (very unlikely but not impossible (in case someone is so crazy to invest in tech during France... )) but alone from mpps it can not be if you counted correct. So my advice: ask your opponent for an explaination and to give you his password for this game after the game is finished (in case he insists that everything is correct...) - so you can check the values (hopefully you kept your previous mails/turns, then it is no problem to check the settings and the following turns) and you will see definitely if it was possible or not and can take appropriate messures (if he refuses explaination/password you also know what to do...(see Curry´s post ). [ July 03, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Transport wars in the good old days...hihi I think too that to make more realistic naval warfare possible it should be easier for combat ships to destroy transports and also that airfleets should not be able to destroy ships so easily - or at least only when they are really close to the coast (1-2 hexes) and not in the open ocean. This would ships make much more important and valuable. A defence of 0 wouldnt help, cause this only influences the damage for the attacker (=enemy ship) and not for the transport. So if possible we need another attack/defence naval combat type against corps (similar to the planed carrier and sub attack/defense values). If a transport can be sunk with a single strike of an enemy combat task force, then they could not be used as cheap cannon fodder for reconnaissance and cutting of enemy fleets. Additionally Sealion would only be possible when axis has enough combat ships to protect its invasion fleet or they could loose all of them in the attempt (much more realistic and Sealion would not be that easy as it is now, but still possible).

hihi... In a surprise contact attacker and defender change roles and units originally without an attack ability (e.g. transports or subs vs subs) get an extra bonus i.e. can do damage to the surprised unit. So e.g. if you move a submarine and get surprised by an enemy ship, then your submarine defends and the enemy attacks. Cause the sub has a defence of 0 the enemy doesnt take damage, but attacks your sub with its full attack value. Since the attack value of nearly every unit is much higher than its defence value, it is a big disadvantage to get surprised - reconnaissance is very important. Before an attack/move if possible use air or cheap corps/corps-transports to reconnoitre the enemy positions. In air to air combat it makes no difference - there doesnt exist a real surprise contact (surprise contacts only occur when you move a unit, but here you attack with the AF and dont move it) - only when an attacking AF gets destroyed the game displays a surprise contact, but as far as I know here it has no influence in the combat.

You have to pay 10% of a units build costs to operate (or transport) it. So you should avoid operating an airfleet if possible cause it costs you a lot of mpp. Experience doesnt make much difference in air combat - at least not at higher jet levels, so operating your AFs west (while building new ones in the east) will cost you more than you can gain.

@ Hueristic: @ Rashak Mani: The trigger is 4 hexes for every city east of Moskov (and Moskov itself). All units near one of these cities count together (units near Moskov count a lot more than near other cities) and when they exceed the critical mass siberians can arrive. If you e.g. have ONLY units near Rostov, then you can trigger siberians with: in 3 hexes = 4+ units or in 2 hexes = 2+ unis or in 1 hex distance from Rostov = 1+ units (in 4 hex distance you cant put enough units to trigger it only with Rostov) i.e. the closer your units are to the city, the less units you "need" to trigger siberians - but still there is the check for the relative strength after the geographical trigger .

@ Hueristic: No, I didnt forget your finish corps . It fits perfectly in the explaination...you need a certain amount of units near Moskov OR one of the cities east of them (including Vologda, the city near Finland, but still east of Moskov ). The closer the less units are necessary. When you come close enough, even one unit can be enough to fullfil the geographical trigger . @ Rashak Mani: Yes, in every game the axis player gets a notification in the report screen at the start of his turn when siberians arrived. So you can see it immediately if you read the report .

In an air duel in the open field - concerning damage - it makes no difference if you are attacking or intercepting. Only if you are attacking from a ressource and have researched anti-air, then the intercepting enemy has slightly higher losses (you receive the anti-air bonus in this case). Some players love to use the anti-air bonus and research heavily anti-air - disadvantage: these mpps are missing somewhere else and usually he neglects his ground forces... In this case if you see the enemy has a high anti-air level researched, then either strike first and establish air superiority, so that he has to reinforce and cant use the anti-air bonus or stay out of interception range if you cant achieve air superiority. Carriers: When they are at full strength, their readiness can be higher than that from airfleets. But when intercepting they have a lower attack rating (-2 compared to the own airfleets) and therefore do less damage than an airfleet. Airfleets cant improve their naval attack value (carriers are ships), but carriers improve their air combat value with each jet level. So with high jets (>=3) and experience (+ long range) they are deadly when attacking/intercepting an airfleet directly and dont take much damage in return (but only in this case ). But since carriers are ships, their readiness highly depends on their strength points (in contrary to land/air units). So if they are damaged they will be very weak and have to be repaired before the next air combat.

Thats only the normal result for an air battle. With tech lv 2 an airfleet has an attack value of 5 vs enemy air, i.e. makes usually ~5 damage. Experience is mainly only important in ground battles where attack values are low (air vs ground is 2, i.e. experience plays a large role cause it can increase your attack value a lot - relatively spoken. But in air vs air combat with here 5 vs 6 it doesnt really matter - and here both sides have experience so this negates each other anyway). Jet levels increase the damage in air combat enourmously (increases both attack value and readiness...) and thats good: this way airfleets cant become super weapons, cause they will loose most of the experience they collected from air to ground warfare in the next airbattle . @ Friendly Fire: AA comes only in play when the enemy would have forced his air into interception, but here it was the other way round - so no AA bonus . [ June 20, 2004, 05:20 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

First there is a geographical trigger for the siberian army: if enough axis units approach Moskov (within 4 hexes) or one of the cities east of Moskov (Rostov, Stalingrad, Voronezh...etc), siberians can arrive. The closer the axis units are to the cities, the less units are necessary to trigger the siberians - and units near Moskov count more than near other cities. But after the geographical precondition is fullfilled, there is a check for the relative strength of both the axis and allied forces in Russia. If Allies are strong compared to Axis (and have a minimum number), then siberians dont arrive, even if Axis units are attacking/taking Moskov...Usually Allies have to be really strong, something around 50+ units (depending on Axis strength..). So it is possible to loose Moskov (Leningrad doesnt influence siberians anyway) and still not to receive siberians if Russia is too strong. For more information read e.g.: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003521#000000

1.To be exact: French units have to be in original UK territory if they want to become free french: England, Gibraltar, Malta or Egypt Canada or conquered territory (e.g. Iraq, Ireland, parts of Italy, Norway, Spain etc...)will not allow free frenchs and they will surrender there. 2. yes, 20% chance for transports and ships independent of the position on the map.

- Gibraltar: in this case you can only take it when it is abandoned. The usual way is to take Spain and then connect Africa by taking Gibraltar. As long as Spain is neutral, you can move through Gibraltar any time when you reduce Gibraltar port to 0 - no need to take it . - Malta: 5 mpps less for Allies, 5 mpps more for Axis... - Sub warfare highly depends on the allied player: if he doesnt take care of his fleet and lost a lot of its ships, then a sub warfare can be very successful. Your subs can raid 40 mpp/turn in the Atlantic and if you have enough subs and rule the seas you dont need ground forces to defend France any more and when USA even cant bring troops to England any more, it is pretty easy to invade and conquer UK when it is cut off from ressources and reinforcements by the subs. - I like to use rockets from time to time. If you invest 5 chits early you often get lv 4-5 until 1942. I usually train 5-6 rockets at London. When Barbarossa comes closer Axis can often take London and conquer England without much effort - nothing can stand against experienced high lv rockets. Rockets with lv 5 (and experience) are deadly against everything - especially later in Russia . Often one shot (damage 8-10 !) is enough to kill a unit that comes too close to a rocket - 2 shots means the certain death for any unit and this without losses for the rockets... But for rockets you need a bit of luck, cause nobody helps you with the research (no catch-up bonus) and when you dont reach a high level, your rockets are really only an expensive toy . Not to forget, France should fall early if you really want to go for rockets, so you have enough time for research and enough ressources to also buy sufficient normal units to protect your rockets against enemy counterattacks.

I remember a long long time ago....when I played the AI in 2002...it sometimes conquered also Spain, Portugal and the Balkans. But it was at expert level with experience +2 and I had to remove my troops from the continent and allow the AI to conquer France early. So when Axis is really strong, they also sometimes attack all other neutrals reachable by a land way (random). The axis AI does not do amphibious invasions (Skandinavia/Africa) - at least not in a normal game with the fall weiss Szenario...

Bidding: In Human vs Human games it is common practice to use bonus mpps for Allies("bid") to decide who plays which side in the Fall Weiss campaign. The one with the highest bid plays Axis. With some experience Axis has a huge advantage, therefore Allies need extra mpps to even out this advantage. The first system was a 1:1:1 system (=mpps x bid for UK,USA,Russia), i.e. if someone bids e.g. 150, then UK gets 150mpp, USA 150mpp and Russia 150mpp. This is an old (obsolete)system, but can still be used by new players. In the meantime the most common systems are 1:8 (1xUK, 8xRussia), 1:10 (1xUK, 10xRussia) and the newest system: 1:5:20 (1xUK, 5x USA, 20x Russia). E.g. a bid of 200 means in the 1:5:20 system: 200 mpp for UK, 1000 USA, 4000 Russia (in 1:10=200UK, 2000Russia). The host adds the bonus mpp in the scenario editor to the fall weiss scenario, saves it under a new name and then can load it for the game. The size of the bid highly depends on the experience of both players since axis only has an advantage when the axis player knows how to play his side and the advantage increases with the experience. Here some average values (March 2004): -new vs new: no bid necessary (Allies even can be in the advantage here) -intermediate vs intermediate: bid 200 system 1:8 or 1:10 (or ~100 in 1:5:20) -veteran vs veteran: bid 200 system 1:5:20 For more informations about things you should know for HvsH games read my thread: Hints for new/intermediate players and basic knowledge SC http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002198

Yes, the same applies for Yugoslavia: As long as France did not surrender, Yugoslavia also does not join Allies (politics at random ). But I guess in your game it doesnt matter any more with Russia already in the war...

Blashy: Yes, you need airfleets if you want to break enemy defence lines and to advance. But it would be unbalanced if you could do it without any air support . This would really be unrealistic if you could win the war without air and even against enemy air superiority at all fronts. If you produce too one sided you will loose the war, this is also right if you only go for ground and neglect your air forces. So dont buy enough armies and you will loose. But the same applies for all other unit types INCLUDING airfleets . And that is what I call balanced concerning unit types: you need all of them at the right amount . About jet tech: since we have a catch up effect it is very seldom that you are behind in tech longer than some turns, its only temporarily. If you are really 2 or more advances behind and want to fight with air at this front, then you have to invest the full 5 chits - and if necessary to sell other chits. If you do this, you have at least 35% chance each turn to reach the next level ! More important: as Germany it simply cant happen that the enemy has airsuperiority at both fronts. If this happens, you have already lost the war a long time ago or you made the mistake to split your airfleets and use them at both fronts (your mistake, not the mistake of the research system ). It can happen that the enemy has higher tech levels at both fronts, but that doesnt mean automatically air superiority. You simply have to unite your airfleets (or at least move enough air to this front) and fight at one front, then you will achieve airsuperiority, it nearly doesnt matter how much tech the enemy has. At least for Russia it is simply not possible to win the air war against all german airfleets since Russia has not enough mpp to keep its airfleets operational and simultaneously to replace its ground losses - except Germany has already lost the war. So if you dont change your strategy according to current tech levels or invest the right amount of chits in tech, its your choice and you cant blame tech for the result . As for historical accuracy: maybe you are right, maybe wrong - there are a lot of different opinions. Here I dont have the necessary informations for an assessment. For me important is the game balance. And within the current combat system SC needs the airfleets as they are, or it becomes unbalanced in one direction or the other. If you want to change how airfleets work, then you have to change a lot of other variables too to keep it balanced - in SC 1 simply not useful. In SC 2 combat system will change a lot I guess, since now with tiles we have a minimum of 3 possible ground attacks instead of 2 - and with a new combat system it is also possible to change how air works. So lets wait and see what Hubert is planning .

Retributar: I come from the point of view of game and unit balance. And from this perspective IMHO (after over 500 games of SC...)air is not too powerful, but exactly right . You also have to look at the mpps cost of each unit and per attack. To compare unit types only with their strength and not to look at the costs is like comparing apples and oranges - a mistake a lot of players make, when complaining about too powerful air . If it is historically accurate or not is not my approach, thats another question. Here you can be right that air is too powerful or not correctly represented. But even in this aspect you can find many arguments and explainations that SC represents it correct since it is an abstraction and represents thousands of different aircrafts and not only fighters (here you can find a lot of discussions with pros and cons in the SC Forum during the last 2 years ). At the beginning without experience air is also in the game not very powerful, it is only as strong as a corps vs ground units, but costs over 3 times more mpps . Only in the course of the war and after collecting experience (which AFs will loose in air battles) they become a bit better vs ground units (armies have still a better combat power at much lower costs..) . But still, even with expected losses of 0, they loose in average 0.33 strength points = ~ 7 mpp per attack. So the mpp exchange rate is even in the later stages of the war not much in favour of the AFs. Map size is a different question. In SC1 Hubert couldnt make the map larger due to memory/technical reasons. In SC 2 it will be larger. Larger is good, but too large is perhaps not so good - at least not for HvsH games when you want to finish a game within a reasonable time . Anyway, in SC you usually have not the problem of too many units and not enough space. Not if both sides are still really fighting. This keeps the amount of units low enough. It is very seldom that you have too much units... this normally only can happen when the game is decided, one side has as good as won and is only hunting the last enemy survivors - or if you produce too one sided: e.g. if you have enough ground units, then you should produce air units. If you continue to build ground units, already have no space to use them and complain you have not enough air, then you obviously make something wrong . [ June 06, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Hmm...my 2 cents concerning airpower in SC1 premise: equal opponents ! (E.g. a Veteran will win with nearly every strategy against a not so experienced player...): Airfleets are important but certainly no game breakers on their own. Only if the opponent follows the wrong strategy - same applies for Jet tech. You need a certain amount of airfleets as Axis, but if you buy too much, you will loose against an equal opponent who follows a more balanced approach. As Germany jets are pretty unimportant. If you dont get jets (and UK does), then simply dont fight against England in the air - its not necessary. Germany has enough other fronts where it can use its air and in France some corps are more than enough for defence. Russia starts with Lv 0 jets, so german air should have no problems there. And as long as they put enough pressure in Russia and continue to attack also on the ground, Russia has not enough mpps for airfights - and when they do fight in the air, then axis ground campaign will move forward much faster . Russia doesnt need jets as long as they are in the defence - they cant afford airfights independently of the jet level. Only UK should stay more or less competitive in jet technology with germany since they dont have another front where they can use their air. But still when they are behind in jets, they usually only have to wait some turns until they catch up - simply dont attack if germany has some air in France and UK is 2 or more jet levels behind - german air in France will be missing in the east, so it is no real problem to wait . In the end: technology is only decisive when the player doesnt change his strategy accordingly. E.g. if you are too far behind in Jets, dont fight for air superiority at this front, shift your focus and increase research. If you want with your head through the wall...the wall is stronger . Strategy has to change with the situation and tech levels or the unflexible player will loose - and this has nothing to do with tech or airfleets as a "gamebraker" . The best strategy in SC is to buy balanced forces. The right mix consisting of armies, tanks, corps and airfleets is much better than an air-only strategy. Only if the opponent also believes that air is everything and also choose an air-only approach it is possible to win with this strategy (against an equal opponent !). This is because air is pretty expensive to buy and reinforce. Against land units air is ineffective compared to tanks/armies - they are 2-4 times more mpp effective than air ! And jet technology makes them even more ineffective, cause it increases the costs for both buying and reinforcing by 10%/level. To kill an enemy unit in a defence line you need either 2 experienced armies/tanks, the enemy is damaged, or you need some air to make breakthroughs. So in the offensive air is usually necessary to protect your units and to move forward - and thats even pretty realistic: if you dont have air, you cant make a successful offensive against a well set up defence line. But still you can kill some enemy units (luck/ experienced units) or move forward if the enemy is not well prepared and gives you the opportunity. You need some airfleets to make breakthroughs and for spotting purposes - for Germany usually 7-10 airfleets when Barbarossa starts. But if someone buys much more he simply has not enough mpp left to buy the necessary ground forces (everything else equal). Things in SC are pretty well balanced . What many players forget: with a better strategy a player will have a lot more mpps/units than the opponent in the end. And then he will win the game DESPITE a lot of airfleets - cause he simply has enough mpps (much more mpp than the opponent). Airfleets above a certain number are inefficient compared to the same mpps invested in ground units, but if someone has won the mpp war, he can afford to waste some mpps. If he had invested them into ground units, he would have won also. But one thing is right: since there is not endless space on the map, sooner or later there are enough ground forces and more ground units will not increase the speed of the advancements any more. So when the war is decided and its time to remove the last enemy survivore, the numbers of airfleets usually go up, cause mpps are no longer the problem and all mpps go into air for the last couple of turns before the enemy surrenders. Summary: Air and tech are no game breakers. To produce too one sided is the first step towards defeat. As long as strategy changes according to the situation and tech levels, tech only changes strategies but not the chances to win. Moral of the story: Dont complain about too powerful this or that...be flexible and choose the right strategy for each situation and dont hesitate to change it when necessary - then you will see: SC is very well balanced and no unit type is too powerful but fits well in the overall concept .

MBMB: Your strategy might work against the AI and with historical settings. But this thread is for Human vs Human games - and this is something completely different . No chance to use this strategy in a HvsH game Standard settings in HvsH games are everything on except war in Siberia. All politics random (not historical) BTW: To beat the AI is no problem - it is good for training and to learn some basics, but no real challenge. When you have learned which way it reacts and how to use its weaknesses you should win every szenario (except perhaps 1944) even at expert setting and +2 experience. If you want a real game, play other humans. You can either have a look in the opponent finder section here at Battlefront (a bit deserted in the last months) or better have a look for players from the PBEM League or Panzerliga (even if you dont want to join, you can ask everyone for a fun game): Informations PBEM-League - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002882;p=1 Website PBEM-League - http://www.myleague.com/scpbem/ Informations Panzerliga: - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003696 - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003453#000000 Website Panzerliga: - http://www.panzerliga.de/ [ June 03, 2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

MBMB: Your strategy might work against the AI and with historical settings. But this thread is for Human vs Human games - and this is something completely different . No chance to use this strategy in a HvsH game Standard settings in HvsH games are everything on except war in Siberia. All politics random (not historical) BTW: To beat the AI is no problem - it is good for training and to learn some basics, but no real challenge. When you have learned which way it reacts and how to use its weaknesses you should win every szenario (except perhaps 1944) even at expert setting and +2 experience. If you want a real game, play other humans. You can either have a look in the opponent finder section here at Battlefront (a bit deserted in the last months) or better have a look for players from the PBEM League or Panzerliga (even if you dont want to join, you can ask everyone for a fun game): Informations PBEM-League - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002882;p=1 Website PBEM-League - http://www.myleague.com/scpbem/ Informations Panzerliga: - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003696 - http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003453#000000 Website Panzerliga: - http://www.panzerliga.de/ [ June 03, 2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Poots: You need to place enough units at the russian border or russian readiness will increase (10%/turn) and they will join much earlier than normal. For more informations and basic knowledge about SC multiplayer games read the first post of my SC Guide thread: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=002198;p=1

MBMB: I just read your other thread, now I know what happened : you set the minors at historical. Then it is clear they will join at the historical date no matter what happens and independently of France. But in HvsH games I have never seen someone playing with historical politics . Standard is everything on except war in Siberia and all politics random.

MBMB: I think what happened to you is that the minors (Hungary, Rumania, Bulgaria) joined in the same turn when France surrendered - this can happen. But they do not join before this even when Allies invade Italy - at least not in the full game with 1.07 patch (perhaps in the Demo it can be) .

- Surface ships can not raid, only axis subs can. - America can not be raided, only UK can loose mpps by raiding Raiding areas around the ports: - St. John (Canada): 7 action points (=hexes) - Liverpool (Manchester): 5 action points (=hexes) Maximum damage: 40 mpp for both ports together - when Canada surrenders, you cannot raid these 2 ports any more (subs were intercepting the canadian supply route) - Gibraltar: 4 action points (=hexes) Maximum damage: 5 mpp - Malta: 4 action points (land/water bridges need 2 APs, so there you cant raid since it is 5 APs away) Maximum damage: 5mpp - Alexandria: 4 action points (same as above for the land bridge near Suez: too far away = no raiding) Maximum damage: 15 mpp [ June 03, 2004, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Axis minors do not join as long as France didnt surrender. But when France falls they will join in the usual timetable. Another thing: When your minors join, you need the full amount of guard units at the russian border (3 units: 1x Königsberg, 1x SE or NE of Warsaw and 1x directly at one of the 9 german-russian border hexes). But when you dont conquer France, your minors wont join - then the latest date when you have to place the 3 guards is December 1940 (if your minors dont join readiness starts increasing at January 5, 1941 if you dont have enough guards). BTW: your minors can join the same turn you take Paris (first SC checks for the surrender, then for your allies ), so have the guard units ready when you take Paris late . [ June 01, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]

Or you can go to www.panzerliga.de - There you will find lots of players (also TCP) . You will find... Active players (At the moment 58) under: Ligen -> Einzelliga -> Strategic Command New players (At the moment 38 for SC)under: Ligen -> Gesamtlige -> Musterung (here you should have a look in the "Wehrpass" to check if they play SC or only a different game) Just make sure they also speek english (english or mixed flag behind the name) and you can ask anyone for a fun game You can simply send them an e-mail or in the so called "Wehrpass" you will find the ICQ numbers. Or register and join the league if you want to play frequently/more often - then you can also post officially in the "Gegnersuche" and look for opponents for League matches (in this case make sure you know the Panzerliga-rules (you can ask me or any other Veteran member from Panzerliga)/clear it with your opponent). [ May 30, 2004, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Terif ]