[Blitzkrieg 1939 Scenario]

Martinov -- Great ideas though I heavily agree with I/O error on many points.

Especially the Soviet four -- that's an enormous advantage and really the only field they were advanced in was heavy tanks -- thanks mostly to a chasis and axle allignment originally offered the U.S. but spurned as America had wonders like the Stuart and Grant tanks, with the Sherman widow maker in the offing. Smart, real smart.

Judging by the Sturmovik, Soviet heavy tank principles extended even to their fighter planes.

-- Hardly an original observation as it was referred to by nicknames like "the flying tank" or "the flying battleship."

Also agreed with I/O on heavy bombers --luftwaffe doctrine in '39 held that every bomber had to be capable of dive-bombing, including the long range condor!

Germany, at the start of the war, seems to have shunned heavy bombers in favor of ground attack planes (largely Milch's influence) and put jet engine research on hold; Goering felt they were not maneuverable enough and lacked range. When they began researching them again many of the designers had to be located, some were running around with rifles in their hands.

With B-17s and Wellingtons filling the skies they came up with a great interceptor in '42/43 but Hitler, in his infinite wisdom, became it couldn't carry bombs!

There enormous mismanagement in the Luftwaffe from top to bottom and start to finish [example, on the very day of it's heaviest losses over Britain, Goering decided to reduce aircraft production!]. Many of the manufaturing decisions had more to do with favoritism and corruption than design quality.

That they built fine planes like the ME-109 and the Focke-Wolfe fighter under such circumstances is a wonder.

More typical was the ME-110, which was supposed to serve as a long range fighter bomber. In the Battle of Britain it was intended it make a bombing run, then find heavier bombers and escort them home. after a day or two it became obvious that, against Hurricanes and Spitfires, it needed escorting itself!

German engenuity came to the rescue in most cases, the majority of their designs were multi-purpose and, even if they failed in the intended role, succeeded somewhere else. The ME-110, for instance, became a great night fighter and, like the Stuka, was used in it's original role in the East and Mediteranean, where interception was less likely.

With really competent management Germany would have had jets and real bombers at the war's start. The Doernier, Junker and Heinkel medium bombers were cargo planes and transports in design, then converted to bombing roles, a drawback of being so adaptable -- look how vulnerable they were to intercepts.

A lot of your other ideas I like, especially the experience level for German starting troops; their army was expanded quickly but those guys were doing a lot training as forest rangers!

Also agree with I/O that U-Boats L-4 in '39 is an extreme solution, especially combined with rolling back British Sonar tech, though it makes sense with the spotting problem.

I don't see the need of stregnthening Poland as they were crushed by Sept 20th (actually, I think it was the 16th!). In the game it's difficult to achieve this. I've done it once vs the AI; the AI as Axis normally does it by late October or even November.

Altering the U. S. is a tough call because, despite it's low MPPs, it enters the war pretty strong, in reality most of those troops were still being trained.

In '39 the army air force and navy were given a lot of attention, but U. S. ground troops (prior to the peacetime draft) were in a league with the Dutch and Belgian armies (both countries had troops posted in colonies making them larger than they appear) -- the U.S. was well covered for a war with Luxemburg!

But the game has to do it that way to prevent gamey players from taking advantage of the map to invade the U. S. before it enters.

But for all that your idea is a Gutsy and imaginative approach. Looking forward to giving it a try; like you and dgaad and many others I'm in favor of putting more historical accuracy into this thing.

-- Before editing I downloaded from your site and will try it right away. Also looking forward to the improved graphics.

[ October 31, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[German U-boat: a joke]

How about toggling between screens in a similar manner to Clash of Steel? Only without a seperate sea war system.

The present map would be the main screen, with the central land mass expanded till only a single column of eastern hexes/half hexes represent the Atlantic.

Toggling an ocean key would enable the Atlantic screen to pop-up.

That screen would be primarily the North Atlantic with parts of Iceland and southern Greenland, only the western-most column of hexes/half hexes would indicate North America.

This would enable naval strategy, for those who enjoy it, and make possible operations involving Iceland and Greenland an option.

It's probably impossible to have more room on the main map, especially to the North to encompass all of Norway, so -- failing that, a system where German naval units skirt the fiords and move along the Artic Sea en route to the Denmark Strait, as was done frequently in the actual war (most famously by Scharnhorst & Gneisenau during '40 and Bismark & Prinz Eugen in '41) would be highly desireable.

An added bonus of all this would be the possibility of land campaigns for Iceland and Greenland; something that is not far-fetched.

If Germany had long term naval plans in 1940 they'd have gone for Iceland while taking Denmark and Norway.

Each of those locations could be abstracted as a city/port hex with two or three adjoining shore hexes -- that would allow for a defensive garrison and make a landing possible against it, the size of such operations should be difficult logistically to keep things under control (a few brigade sized units would have been likely historicall. Representing this action in corps or army sized units in the game might not be authentic but can certainly be lived with.

Bases in those locations would be of inestimable importance in North Atlantic warfare.

The Western edge would only be for U.S. and Canadian units to enter the game. I don't think a North American campaign via the North Atlantic would have been possible, not even in 1950 with the projected Axis Blue Water navy discussed at some legnth courtesy primarily of dgaad in an earlier forum concerning Canada.

If the map is changed and a trade off is involved, I'd prefer more coverage of the European & North African landmass without the Atlantic; if not a seperate ocean screen, then abstracted sea warfare similar to COS, with off map operations like an Axis invasion of Iceland & South Greenland.

---

To me, the drawback of the current ocean movement situation is (1) the U-Boats are distorted from their true role (2) it lends itself to unimaginable variants, such as an Axis invasion of Canada and even the United States. These are major flaws and, if a revised map and naval system is called for I think then that's the path that should be taken.

Failing that, the game is fun in it's present form, but at the expense of historical authenticity. I think it can easily achieve more of both.

[ October 30, 2002, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[The Second Roman Empire!!!]

Glad you enjoyed it Immers -- right on the money, as usual, regarding the inspiration -- kept picturing Charlie Chaplin and Jack Oakey doing Adolph and Bennie in "The Great Dictator."

----

It is a bit weird that Italy's technology seems to jump start itself and takes off for no logical reason. I'm sure that's also happened with me, but I didn't keep track of the details.

On the other hand, all research countries in this game have periods of lag and surges; with the Axis (where there's more to spend on research) I've had fields with five chits lag behind fields with only one -- I'm sure we've all seen it.

In one game I had the one chit on rocket technology, didn't increase it, and before long it was up to L-5 while Industrial technology and jets, which were what I really wanted, crawled --the result, a few very expensive rocket units that were fun to use but too immobile to decisively affect anything.

Ironically, after fleeing Italy and liberation (!), a group of Italian engineers in Germany took quickly to jet engines -- which till then they hadn't known existed -- and became the leading researchers in that technology.

---

Agreed that Mediteranean strategy is an interesting aspect of the game, a lot quirks -- also agreed the UK end of it isn't up to speed.

During WWII the Brits gave the Mediteranean and Middle East almost as much priority as the British Isles.

Until Rommel came along it was their only morale booster -- they were facing their favorite adversary, the Italian "gentlemen" who'd start wandering over to the British lines in neat formations, asking for directions to POW camps, then heading there, as fast as possible, sometimes unguarded, singing. As paraphrased from more than one Tommy: 'It was a pleasure dealing with them -- they didn't want to be any bother to anybody. But Gerry, he was a different matter altogether!'

Paraphrased German opinion of North Africa, '...and we'd ask, why are we here anyway, let the Italians have this stinking place.'

And through it all that damn crude oil contaminating the water holes, leading each side to accuse the other of fouling them during retreats!

---

I wonder what Italian policies would have been if some skilled geologists had visited Libya and dug a few holes in the right places around 1927 or '28 --?

[ October 29, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Your biggest Blunder?]

Transfering two French corps across the Mediteranean to Lebanon, where they joined the corps already there and the British Bomber fleet in a very maddening effort to conquer Iraq before France fell.

They entered Bhagdad as the last French defender awaited it's fate in Paris. The turn ended and I suddenly noticed the Iraqi plunder being rung up in the French totals instead of the U.K's. -- A defeated France that had no more turns of existence remaining!

Somehow the mouse clicked quit and it ended -- bad mouse, naughty-naughty mouse! I thought about restarting the game through autosave, but somehow I couldn't watch the Boche take Paris and get my plunder, Iraq and everything else as a gift.

In an alternate universe somewhere, they're adjusting the blindfold and my batman has tucked the Iron Cross into my left shirt pocket -- the Iron Cross awarded incompetent foes and sneaked in from Germany through the Swiss Embassy -- tucked in nice and neat so the British firing squad that used to salute me every morning will have something to aim at!

[ October 29, 2002, 03:00 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[The Second Roman Empire!!!]

Many Thanks, glad you both enjoyed the epic, had a lot of fun writing it.

Haven't used Italian Rockets yet.

A few times Germany reached L-3 with them and I built a few units, used them successfully to take London firing from Flanders, Malta, firing from Sicily, and Gibraltar after Spain entered.

Also used them in Russia against Odessa and Sevastopal; the main problem with rockets is their lack of mobility, but if you find a good spot for them they can be very, very effective --especially against BBs.

It's best to cover a group of them with at least one airfleet. It's fun to fire them and not be concerned with the annoying kick-back loss. When they reach Level-5 they have a range of six and tend to rule the field.

A note on Norse's entry -- if you attack Yugoslavia before her coup, Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria remain neutral.

By the time Italy gets around to Turkey, Spain usually enters the Axis. Spain would make an interesting campaign but it hasn't happened with me yet.

After Egypt I operate the two armies out of Lybia (Tripoli and Tobruck) to Syria, where they join the Italian HQ and the other two armies and airfleet for the Turkish campaign.

About that time Turkey tends to join the Axis, if it doesn't things are more exciting with the invasion proceeding as planned.

After Turkey, Italy sometimes gets into the Russian campaign, normally in the Caucasus.

By that time her research is popping and, in this game system if not historically, she's a real dynamo!

When Turkey joins the Axis the Russian campaign becomes easy. As the game is slanted toward the Axis anyhow, if Italy is this far along I think it's a good handicap for her to invade Turkey and see if it makes things more competitive.

I doubt that anything short of total victory in Russia would have induced Spain, Turkey or Portugal to join the Axis in real life, though all three were sympathetic.

I think Spain was probably the key to Italy not being defeated -- Gibraltar had to be closed, otherwise Britain had too much control of the Mediteranean.

In the Autumn of 1940, Hitler met with Franco to discuss Spain's joining the Axis and allowing Germany to "help" her take Gibraltar.

Admiral Canaris, an old friend of the Generalisimo's, was sent to pave the way for the meeting. No one suspected, yet, that the Admiral was playing for both sides. When he noticed a lack of enthusiasm on Franco's part, he tipped him off to Hitler's Russian plans and advised him, confidentially, that Spain's economy would suffer greiviously by being at war with Britain!

Franco nodded. Returning to Berlin, Canaris told Hitler he had done his best and felt Franco was ready to cooperate.

The meeting took place and Franco said very little, just sat and listened impasively with a fixed stare directed at nothing while an aide brought up all the unpleasant points. Germans in the room saw the way he spoke to Hitler and half expected the man to be shot!

At the end of the session, Hitler, trembling with suppressed rage and anger, told Ribbentrop he'd rather have half his teeth pulled without anesthetic than meet again with the Spaniard!

Looking forward to reading your own adventures in this thing. Hope you use Italian rockets.

-- Would greatly enjoy being a (fantasy) Fascist Italy's PR man. Great climate, great food, get to live in a nice villa, Momma Mia!

[ October 28, 2002, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[The Second Roman Empire!!!]

Zeres -- Good idea, if the Italians are strong they are more of an asset. But there are much simpler ways to get there against the AI.

Here's my own tried and proven recipe for Mussolini's "Our Little Lake" (the Mediteranean) fantasy.

It's all very gamey, so purists need read no further. Also, whether much of this would work against a skilled human player is doubtful.

The British fleet at Alexandria rarely moves; the only time I've seen the AI do so is if the Italian fleet wanders up to it early in the game.

Consequently there's no need to hide your ships, bring the sub a few hexes east of Malta and deprive the already deprived UK of 5 MPPs a turn. Leave your capital ships near Taranto for a while, you'll need them later.

Next, Marsielle will almost always be undefended, grab it with one of your armies to get a few more MPPs, you'll lose them when France falls, so grab them while they're available. Leave the Albanian garrison where it is and don't bother putting troops in Naples or Taranto as the AI doesn't go after them.

Take a trip to Berlin, tell Hitler you're fascinated by his artwork, his city scenes with gaunt buildings and stick people who don't respond to each other are fascinating. He'll love you and do anything to help out, which is good. Ask him to send a couple of airfleets to Sicily -- no hurry, he can wait till after France falls.

Put your spare lire in a piggy bank and don't break it till you can buy an airfleet of your own. Buy it and place it beside their German comrades on the lush Sicilian hillsides; request the yellow haired Luftwaffe boys refrain from laughing at your circa 1937 designs, tell your own pilots they're lucky, assure those pilots they're lucky to be flying such tried and true machines, why, they don't make fighters like that any more -- and you won't be lying!

Keep hitting Malta with your German and Italian air fleets and send your cruiser and three battleships to hit it as well. Get mad, what the hell are those filthy limies doing so close to Sicily -- get enraged, growl, set an Italian corps (but not the one in Albania) on transport and put it off Malta right away. Before long the British Air fleet will fall to zero, land your troops, raise the flag, and start coveting your neighbor's everything.

Move your sub a little east of Gibraltar to have the Brits continue losing 5 MPPs each turn. Don't worry about the British BB, the AI always sends it north before any of this occurs.

Make another trip to Berlin, admire some more of Adoph's alleged art work, praise him, and talk about how well German and Italian airmen work together. You'll be telling the truth, because without the Luftwaffe your guys in the Aeronautica are a skeet shoot! Suggest those Luftwaffe units would be great for another project. He'll start talking about how his planes are needed over Britain or perhaps someplace "EAST" -- he won't say where, exactly, because it's a secret! Listen politely, then point to one of his masterpieces and ask him if it's a Michelangelo or a Leonardo and he'll say "Okay, how long will you need my luftflottes!"

Plug the holes in your ships, they ought to be pretty leaky by now, declare war on Vichy France and let it rip. Send your two armies to reoccupy Marsiells and have them damage the Vichy BB in port by hurling rocks and insults at it from the shore.

Your own ships should gang up on the other Vichy BB at Mers el Kabir, then send them north to finish off her abused and anchored sister.

Get angry again. Those stinking Frogs, what the hell are they doing right next to Italy for crissakes -- get'em the hell out of there and rename their former holdings Cisalpine Gaul and Carthage.

Transport another Italian corps, or perhaps the one from Malta to be posted off Algeria. When the Vichy garrison becomes very weak from air and naval bombardment, land the corps for the final assualt. Be careful not to do it too early as it will have no supplies after the first turn.

Vichy France surrenders and by now Italy is fairly powerful.

Make another trip to Berlin, admire the Fuhrer's paintings again and tell him he's mastered several new technics since your last visit. Be careful not to mention artists who haven't been dead less than two hundred years. Then, after dinner and listening to Die Meistersinger, tell him you have a problem; the damn Yugoslavs are getting on your already strained nerves and the Greeks, momma mia, who the hell can stand to live on the same sea as the obnoxiuous Greeks!

He sighs and you elaborate.

Those barbarians on the other side of Adriatic make noise all hours of the night, you can't get any sleep and are so groggy you can't pose properly, with the proper sneer and chin movements, at Fascist Rallies.

You're so agitated that you've already sent your two armies to the Yugoslav border and have raised a corps to garrison Trieste/Venice (a safeguard against later Yugoslav partisans).

He's hesitating, there's this Eastern thing and . . . Tell him they've been sneaking prints of Picasso and Duchamp into the Reich -- !

That does it, you have whatever you'll need.

He lets you in on a secret, his cracked, I mean crack diplomats have got Hungary, Rumania and Bulgaria lined up to assist in a big project to the "EAST" somewhere that he can't tell you about because it's still a secret.

Count Ciano hands you a folded note, Fascist Iteligence has identified Germany's "EAST" project, it can only be the invasion of Japan.

Wrapping up the conference Der Fuhrer pats your hand, asks you to send some more connolis rushed UPS same day and measures your skull with prongs, pronouncing it a neo-Nordic type 9 --

Then he says "Sit tight, don't do anything yet because the Yugoslavs are foaming at the mouth, they're mad dogs who crave sick things like freedom and independance and they're about to have a convulsion."

He winks and can't reveal any more because this too is a secret.

Before you even arrive home there's a pro-allied coup in Belgrade. You sing Verdi arias, a couple from Aida in a rhapsody of whishful thinking, and watch German airfleets and Axis troops reduce the Yugoslavian army to a few shell shocked diehards.

You send very explicit messages to the Hungarians, Bulgarians and Germans that it's okay for them to reduce the Yugoslavian army, but they must, under no circumsances, enter the city itself. Anticipating their displeasure you send hot lasagna and pastry so they won't be sore at you.

The two Italian armies make their way south to the now undefended or very weak city of Belgrade and you enter in a grand victory parade. The festivities culminate with the place being renamed "Benitoville" after some lucky guy.

Peace at last, except the Greeks are being anooying now, refusing to be reasonable and get annexed and they are really getting on your nerves with all their sovereignty talk.

You start packing for a trip but just then the Germans get prissy, Ribbentrop visits, you show him your big, BIG map and he says they can no longer take part in your screwy schemes. They have their own screwy schemes to worry about.

So he goes back to Berlin and you don't get any more aid, so who needs them anyway, damn huns were never anything but a nuisance anyhow!

Italy now has plenty of MPPs.

You've started doing research -- hey, your aircraft designers think it might be possible to build fighters that have a single wing -- momma mia, armor designers start thinking up ways to attach steel shielding to the sides of your tanks, maybe even fit them with real artillery pieces -- it's all so revolutionary!

You have so many MPPs you can do things like build an aircraft carrier, a second submarine to further punish British convoys and maybe even help sink their Mediteranean squadron.

Whole vistas of new possibilities begin to open up, who knows what you can achieve without German meddling!

But first you have to extend Italian citizenship to those poor souls in Greece.

You build an Army HQ in Albania, maybe Garibaldi because you like his name, or perhaps Balbo because in 1930 he was the first to cross the Atlantic with a squadron of sea planes and he's a hero, beloved by the people and he thoroughly hates your guts and -- on second thought, make it Garibaldi.

You anchor a BB near Athens, ask the Bulgarians to help cover your derrier, build a corps or two in Yugoslavia to watch for Partisans, and invite Greece to enter the Italian camp by declaring war on her.

The first thing you notice is not one, but two strong Armies firmly entrenched in the mountains. Your first instinct is to attack them because they really tick you off -- what the hell are those guys doing in YOUR Greek mountains? But you subdue your impulses and march south to besiege Athens, causing the Greek armies in the north to run out of supplies and resort to throwing rocks at stray goats.

A short bombardment, shelling and a few assaults enables you to enter the former Greek capital and rename it VillaBenito. Geez, you look around and regret doing so much damage till Count Ciano points to the really big stone and marble ruins and says they've been like that for thousands of years, and you feel better. Then you cross your arms and say it's a disgrace that things have been left so long in such disrepair --such a thing would never be tolerated in Fascist Italy!

During the flight home Count Ciano hands you another cryptic message, the Germans have changed their plans and, instead of invading Japan, are invading the Soviet Union.

"No," you say, "How can this be, what possible sense does that make?" but Ciano's boys are pretty sure of it because newpapers round the world are showing photos of Stukas dropping heavy objects on Minsk, Kiev and Odessa.

So, Der Fuhrer, that snake, all along he's been distracting you so he could snatch Russia for himself! Seems you can't trust anyone.

All of which means there's no time to lose. He's grabbing Russia this month, next month it might be Yeman!

You put things in high gear, send your fleet, including the two subs and the new aircraft carrier, to the eastern Mediteranean and have them sink the once feared British fleet.

Garibaldi and his two armies board canoes and paddle from Athens to Syria, which is already yours from Vichy France. They land, your airfleets operate across the water and, in a spending fit you even build another one. No time to lose, and it's only then that you realize how much you detest the Iraqis.

God how you hate them, sitting there in the Italian city of Bahgdad -- they're insufferable. Good thing you happen to have the now formidable Italian army and air force on hand.

But really, all this killing and suffering, is it all necessary? You sigh, why can't everyone just get along, why can't the Iraqis and Italians be friends? You send them a nice note, "Dear Iraqis, I'm inviting you to become Italians, what do you say?"

Their reply is written in some sort of squigly mumbo jumbo, who the hell can read that stuff, so you extend the olive branch and declare war on them.

Before you can utter "Mare Nostrum" there's a victory parade motoring through "New Benitoville" and you suddenly realize King Faruk

hasn't accepted your invitation, he doesn't even attend the unveiling of your new statue!

Such jealousy -- God how you hate him! Him and that British corps sitting in Alexandria and everything about them, why it's Antony and Cleopatra all over again and you hang a right out of New Benitoville to settle a few scores.

A short time later you're watching Aida being performed in Cairo, the way old Verdi prefered it. The Eygyptian MPPs are yours till the UK falls, at which time guess which vipor steals them from you! -- but everything else you've taken remains yours forever, or at least till the Italian people express their love for you by dangling you playfully, upside down, from some Genoese lamp post.

Sitting in your new Alexandrian office you look out across the waves and say, "All Mine!" Except that annoying Ciano has to mutter, "What about Turkey?" Rushing to your big, BIG map, you look up and scream, "Turkey -- Turkey, it's ruining my whole ambiance!" And it's only then that you fully understand how hateful people like Mustapha Kamil really are . . ..

Crossing the harbor in your special launch you cross your arms and exhibit your meanest expression while the naval band strikes up 'Hail Italia, Italia Rules the Waves --'.

That idiot Ciano, what does he know telling you this morning your ships were badly mauled while sinking the British and will take months to repair -- they look just fine, the ones that remain. Sure, perhaps a bit low in the water and slanted to one side with a few dents and holes and . . ..

And from one of them a pair of sailors, Louigie Costellano and Bud Abotto, standing on a scaffold working on the hull of BB Litorio salute and shout down to you "Having a nice ride, Il Duce?"

And you wave back; like all people all over the world they love you.

"Yes my children -- we sail today for Asia Minor!"

One of shorter sailor starts saying, "But the ships are --" and the taller one slaps him on the head.

So you cross your arms once more and gaze ahead. Now that you think of it, nobody's heard a word from Franco in ages -- what's he doing, is he with us or against us? Especially considering all the money and material and (a-hem) volunteers you sent to help get him started. What an ingrate -- come to think of it, you hate him too!

But first it's Asia Minor -- then -- yes, now that you think of it, the proper name for that other place is Hispania . . ..

--- --- ---

Italy becomes a super state beyond anything Il Duce could have imagined -- okay, let's not go that far, the man had a terrific imagination!

Italian research comes up with all sorts of adances. One guy drinks too much vino and says not only can aircraft be built with a single wing, they don't even need propellars, maybe not even a tail, and maybe the whole thing can just be designed like a big boomerang and --and you send him to a sanitorium!

You're the new Roman Emperor. In game terms it's debatable whether you gain anything doing it this way, or just letting Germany do most of that conquering. I think it makes for a more interesting situation with Italy going after the Mediteranean, especially if you like the thought of vindicating Il Duce and carrying out his goals.

Except, of course, as dgaad and others have pointed out in several other forums, Italy in 1940 had neither oil nor spare parts nor decent weapons nor quality officers nor a strong industrial base nor . . ..

As for incompetence -- though they were in Libya since 1911 their planes based there in 1941 still lacked sand filters! -- Incendiary bombs that went off as the bombay opened, igniting the bomber that carried them! -- Combat boots made of pressed cardboard!

Picky-Picky-Picky!

[ November 18, 2002, 06:20 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wehrmacht, SS and Waffen SS Troops.]

Early in the war, when they were a relatively small force, the Waffen SS probably was an elite outfit, but their very fanatacism always resulted in high casualties, units often losing the very troops that gave credence to an elite status.

As more units were organized it grew larger too quickly and was unable to maintain it's former standards of training. It became proportionately less elite and in the summer of 1943 many of it's best remaining troops were lost at Kursk.

From that point on it was distinguished primarily for it's ruthlessness and the extreme party fanatisisim of many of it's troops, but not necessarily because it fought better than the regular army units.

As the war dragged on Himmler had a tendancy to make party hacks SS officers to ensure his units would recieve the best equipment and first choice of available manpower, making it's divisions more up to stregnth than the regular army's.

It was very late in the war when the Waffen-SS organized itself into large formations. This was deliberate, the Junker officer corps tolerated seperate divisions, but had no desire to see SS corps in their armies.

After July '44, when Hitler openly distrusted the regular army and it's officers, it was open season for Himmler to expand the SS as much as he wanted, and he did. However, by doing so the units contained troops who were rushed through taining and, though the SS still tended to draw the most fanatical, an ever growing percentage were being drawn -- often actually drafted!-- from France and the Baltic countries. Few of them held any real loyalty to the Reich (though there were exceptions) and were not usually of higher fighting quality than regular army conscripts of that time -- a former Waffen SS man I knew was Finnish, but I don't know how he entered the organization.

By the Ardennes Offensive there were SS Panzer Armies, but it was too late to have much meaning and such units were short on tanks and panzer grenediers and big on regular infantry.

Some historians have gone to great legnths to distinguish the Waffen-SS from the SS guards at the concentration camps and execution squads, but on the drop of a hat the Waffen-SS was more than willing to conduct slaughter for it's own sake, and often they'd drop their own hat.

The Second SS Panzer Division ("Das Reich") was particularly famous for it's attrocities in Russia and France, much more so than for anything it accomplished in battle.

At war's end the Soviets wanted to execute every SS-man as a member of a criminal and murdering organization. A bit extreme but understandable considering many of their activities.

I agree with the already stated opinion that nothing would be gained by making them a seperate category.

[Whats the deal??!!]

Jumpman --

You criticized the map in the one place it has real relevance -- the hex west of Alexandria, which is where the Battle of El Alemain was slugged out.

South of that hex there's an ocean of very soft sand called the "Qattara Depression" where Tanks, motor vehicles and infantry formations tend to sink and vanish!

Rommel wanted to send his armor south, using the tried and true North African maneuver of going around the enemy, but couldn't due to that nasty geography. Instead he had to attack a fortified ridge, which held, leaving him in a stalemate with no chance of victory and a very strafeable supply line stretching back to Libya.

The map has many odditities, especially in the Atlantic, and is beaten to death in practically every forum.

There are a lot of good points to the game and many people are pointing out the weaknesses, which I think will be improved eventually.

[ October 28, 2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

["HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05]

Immer -- taking some time out from SC postings.

I misread your meaning -- was sure my interpretation was incorrect but wanted it clarified.

Having apparently grown up in America roughly the same time as yourself, I remember the transformation that was taking place which you described.

The early fifties was "God Bless America" and Cold War blustering all over the country. It was as though everybody had to get up every morning and say "I'm an American and I can handle any ten commies that ever lived!"

By the time the Sputniks were launched it reached a national paranoia -- just what the hell were those dirty Reds doing up there --? Watching us (not that we weren't watching them,) aiming missles at us? (not that we didn't have a few in places like Turkey aimed at Moscow & Kiev) --

People like Jack Kerouac, Marlon Brando, James Dean and various musicians (jazz and country/folk primarily, though Leonard Bernstein was also a prime "Pinko!") helped establish a more relaxed and free thinking mentality. I remember the hostility they, individually and as a group, incurred, being lumped together as reds, pinkos, non-conformists and whatever other label the mainstream wanted to apply.

A confused argument I remember from a family get-together back then had an uncle getting red faced, practically screaming "Don't tell me, I went there and I fought those bastards." My cousin said, "The Russians?" and he snapped, "No -- the Germans -- they're the same thing with different names." Which is the way I remember those days. Grandfatherly Ike playing golf and taking care of the country and a near war mentality behind all the prosperity.

Before TV became obsessed with westerns it aired constant WW II movies with Bogey, John Wayne and Randolph Scott that are seldom programmed today because of their blatant propaganda.

As a kid it became confusing; the Japanese had a little red star on their helmets and the North Koreans/Chinese Communists also wore a star, on black and white TV they looked identical. Russians and Germans were each mentioned as friends sometimes and as enemies other times -- comic books added to the confusions -- were we still at war, and if so, with whom? Did those guys take turns fighting us or what?

It was like the story of Napoleon walking along the Borodino battlefield a day after the fighting looking at the corpses and saying, "They have lost three to our one!" A colonel standing nearby told an aide, "The Emperor no doubt counts Prussian dead among our enemies."

By the mid-60s I thought things were loosening a bit, Ed Sullivan kept booking Ruskies like "the Don Cossacks" -- swirling sabre dances jumping insanely while millions of Americans wondered if someone would slip and decapitate his partner on live TV! Russians started being seen as something other than "commie bastards."

But most of that went down the tubes with Vietnam and the divisions it caused, shuffling the American scene wildly, along with concurrent convulsions from the long overdue Civil Rights movement. I think most young Americans today, if put in a time machine and sent back to the early 50s, would be shocked at how different the country was -- the President and various Governors fighting over the right of non-whites to attend the same public school as their white neighbors!

Things like Civil Rights progressed but other things, like the Cold War, went backwards -- by the eighties it was almost at it's starting point of the fifties -- worse perhaps because we had a chip on our shoulder over "losing" Vietnam. It was so bad that great victories like Grenada, Tripoli and Panama were cheered wildly! When the Russians were driven out of Afghanistan the big thing wasn't the event itself but gratitude that they'd suffered their own version of Vietnam.

And of course the two initial U-Boats in the North-Atlantic are dead against a human player.

What gets me today is how mild yesterday's revolutionaries were. Kerouac now is nothing more or less than the quality of his fiction, some like him, some hate him, which is probably what he would have wanted. One time no-goodniks like Henry Miller raise a laugh these days with forbidden works like Tropic of Cancer, once banned in the author's own country, the land that legalised Freedom of Speech.

After the last posting I re-read the Kerouac interview that was mentioned. It was conducted in '67 (the Paris Review Interviews, Writers at Work, 4th Series, 1974 available in Penguin Press), a couple of years before his death. Consistant with your remarks on his later life his comments stray, lack consistency and are peppered with shots at Burroughs and various other writers and poets he'd earlier befriended.

Which helps explain how the Hitler Youth and their girlfriends in the League of German Maidens caused the UKs low MPP totals.

[ October 28, 2002, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

["HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05]

Immer Etwas -- Yes, and agreed on everything but Jack Kerouac!

My point was never that German youth were unique nor was it that those who had been members remained brainwashed till death.

In the case of the Hitler Youth, Hitler's death undid much of the conditioning. When it became commonly accepted that he had not died in battle but by suicide, it freed most of those who, after the war, might still have been influenced by his mistique.

One Hitler Youth a little too young to be drafted at war's end remembered how, on the last day of the academy, the administrator said, "Boys, the war is over and you should all go home." He said it was as though everything drained from his body, he was empty and nothing on earth made sense.

In post-war Germany young men in their late teens came to see how limited their up-bringing had been and realized the only role they were being prepared for was that of a soldier.

I'm aware of the Americans who inflicted the electric shocks and also have read Freud's book, which makes it's points concisely and is not a huge tome but a digestible work that should be read more widely.

There was a similar experiment during the sixties involving college students divided into jailors and prisoners. It went from playful to vicious and had to be aborted.

I have no doubts that any country, including the United States, can come under the control of a totalitarian regime.

If it happened in America I'm sure it would find tens of millions of "freedom loving" citizens who would be more than willing to cooperate under the proper circumstances. If it's methods were in any clever, if it provided soothing words and prosperity, the overwhelming masses would act as though nothing were wrong.

Which is why I don't blame the German people for the nazis taking over in 1933. The average person only wants to work and attend to his or her own affairs; governments are created by power brokers, not the people.

In the case of Germany, 1933, the power brokers were outsmarted and all of humanity eventually was stuck paying the price.

But I'm not worried about that happening today, especially in America; it's not like we have special interests and power brokers running things, or a government that keeps it's citizenry in the dark on practically everything.

I hope this doesn't start a "New World Order" attack -- the Hitler Youth thing was bad enough!

***

Young people are always utilized by dictators -- the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia gave weapons to children and had them wandering the countryside exercising powers of life and death. The result was random murder and chaos.

Communist China had it's Red Guards, with similar, though not as extreme, results.

After the war most former Hitler Youth looked back with bitterness at the way they had been used by the state.

Armed boys in uniform appear everytime a country fights to the death for it's existence. Photos from the American Civil War in 1865 clearly show the corpses of southern boys eleven and twelve years old mangled those of middle-aged and even elderly comrades. And I dare say there was no Jeff Davis Youth movement that put them there.

Anyway, the ONLY point I was trying to make, was that Nazi Germany trained all of it's boys in infantry tactics and fanatical loyalty which raised the fighting quality of their infantry units.

I never said they were turned into zombies or that the survivors are dangerous old men, nor did I say the effect couldn't be duplicated elsewhere, because it obviously can be done anywhere the proper conditions exist -- what I did say was this, only nazi Germany had millions of boys wit extensive militarily training and they played a major role in their countries effort. Anyone who denies that is wrong. Period.

***

RE Jack Kerouac: While his books influenced legions of free spirits, many of whom went off wandering the roads, I fail to see where they have much in common with the Hitler Youth!

In a 60's Writer's at Work interview, Kerouac seemed bemused by the whole thing and said he didn't like having kids pop in at his home all hours of the day expecting to be greeted with a joint and a drink!

RE: SC and the MOD's construction, I'm not sure who made the super unit point, but it makes sense. The Germans are already strong, they build armies pretty easily, having the same effect as a generation of pretrained soldiers.

--------

"Don't gotta be mean because where ever you go, there you are!" -- Buckaroo Bonzai.

--------

[ October 27, 2002, 02:49 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[who is stronger: axis or allies ???]

Always clobber the Soviets quickly and exploit breakthroughs with panzer units. Avoid slugging matches in extended lines and go for a decisive breakthroughs instead, even if it's for lesser goals than the fixed battle as the AI will nearly always try to stop you, extending it's own lines to the limit.

Watch out for partisans but don't go crazy chasing them. Allied corps are good to garrison rear areas.

Be careful not to lose Finland; it's a pain in the rear, literally, for the Soviets and frees a disproportionate amount of his units if it falls.

Russia, as far as I can see, is the only real problem for the Axis. Poland, Yugoslavia and France are givens, the U. K. is weak, as is the United States (argued over extensively on many sites) -- the only country that can win it for the Allies is Mother Russia!

As the Allies there's planty of nothing to do before the entry of the USSR and the U.S.. Don't lose the French airfleet, have it conduct it's interdictions from Southern England, along with the R.A.F..

If possible evacuate whatever French units you can before France falls. I always transport the French Foreign Legion and the corps in Syria to Egypt. The U.K. is so feeble little things like that matter.

Use the French fleet as cannon fodder. You don't know if you'll have any after France surrenders, so send them to the Mediteranean and use them to sink the Italian Navy; back them up with your aircraft carriers.

The Royal Navy should hunt down the two starting U-Boats and sink them right away, you can't afford to lose any MPPs to those little buggers.

Britain is desperate for MPPs. At the earliest opportunity, after France falls, conquer Syria and Iraq, drive the Italians out of Libya and take Algeria. Even then the U.K. is feeble but the war should have expanded by then, allowing some regrouping while the Hun turns East.

Even with the French airfleet in England it's still hard to stave off the Luftwaffe -- if you lose them they're very hard to replace, so if they get too weak let London burn and pull them back to Scotland -- otherwise London burns anyway and you lose your airfleets!

It's hard to believe how really weak the UK is; Ireland is a hard conquest! Incidentally, only land a corps there, because there's no harbor and what goes in, stays in.

The game really starts when Germany turns east.

I've had one game as the allies against the AI where the Axis came in with a dud, got nowhere, did nothing while Finland fell, then withdrew in response to UK & USA invasions. It didn't take any Soviet cities or resources, the Russians formed strong defensive lines from the start and that was all she wrote.

In another game a zillion obnoxious gray units overran the border and destroyed most of the Russian armies before I had a chance to move them. Two extremes -- usually it's somewhere in the middle. If the Soviets must do it they can withdraw and reorganize, but it's risky. The massive production is deceiving, Germany also produces big and already has a lot of good units with plenty of air support.

It's best to hold Soviet cities till they're about to be cut off, then operate the units out and hang on stubbornly to the next city. Put corps on the resource squares, cover everything valuable. Cities that fell easily in the real Barbarossa, like Riga and Minsk, can hold out a long time in the game. If Riga falls fight like hell to hold Lenningrad, otherwise there's a much longer front line that develops outside Moscow and suddenly it's a fight for your life.

The advice given by an earlier contributor is terrific -- build air and tank units, hold them behind your lines, then break through and cut off as many German units as you can. The AI generally gets involved with salients -- why take them head on?

When the British and Americans start making landings the AI pulls considerable units out of Russia to counter them.

The important thing to remember with Russia is not that resources are not limitless. If you give up too much space for time it can destroy you. On the other hand, you don't have to worry about losing because the Axis has taken the big three -- Lenningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. In this game Russia fights to the bitter end -- the Axis has to capture everything before you're sent to your own favorite gulag.

I like it better that way for the Axis as well because it makes more sense -- European Russia is only half of the whole, I doubt the Soviets would have surrendered with the loss of Moscow and the other key cities, what reason would they have had? The farther east the Axis moved the more difficult further progress would have been.

Anyway, while all that is going on America is probably in the war and the UK has begun asserting itself.

Italy is a tough place to invade, especially if you start at Sicily, which you almost have to do to have air support. Advances up the toe tend to be bogged down. It's hard to move armies and HQs north in the proper order.

But being bogged down in the mud can be beneficial. The AI often over reacts and sends huge forces to defend Southern Italy. On those occasions try to land far north and along bother coasts, pinching the southern units off while you capture Rome. If some units move back from the south to block you new landings, resume the slow crawl up the toe and clobber the Hun from the sea on every occasion.

In many ways this is realistic; however, once in Italy it's difficult to break out, a quick look at the terrain tells why. As in "real life" you make your next invasion in France and one or the other has to give.

During the actual campain Kesselring was always worried about landings behind him that never took place. The Allies were disgusted by Anzio but it seems to have had the opposite effect on the Germans, who worried about such end-runs anyway. In any case, the front line in Italy can be held by a few Axis units and it isn't too difficult for him to keep decent reserves in the rear.

All of this is good. Those are units that would otherwise be slaughtering Soviet citizens. At the earliest opportunity make another landing, this time in France, and things pretty much proceed as they did historically.

Unless Germany has defeated Russia.

If the USSR is gone and you aren't actually looking at engraved road signs written in German saying "Berlin a stone's throw from this point!" you might want to consider packing everyone back on the transports and targeting something safer and more reasonable, like Costa Rica.

[ October 26, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[German U-boat: a joke]

The U-Boats are a good investment for fighting capital ships but are only good in commerce raiding if they keep moving and remain in packs. Single U-Boat units are easy prey.

If Germany builds a few carriers and posts airfleets in the Brest region, units of the Royal Navy can be lured south, out of Manchester chasing U-Boats, and sunk. I don't think that's overly far fetched and after a while the British become weak enough for Germany to make a successful landing on the channel coast.

If that's too unrealistic, then another plan is putting four of them together and always keeping them in support of each other. Groups like that aren't too expensive and, as they are rarely attacked by more than one or two capital ships they can serve well as a killer force.

The key seems to be keeping them in groups and well supplied and on the move. As in the actual war, aircraft carriers, air fleets and bombers are all very effective against subs. They're great for screening ahead of surface ships, though the fleet as a whole has to move at a reduced speed, which is realistic.

There's a mid-Atlantic hunting ground, as in the real war, where they can hurt the convoys and be out of range of land based aircraft. Naturally, you can't settle there very long unless you're willing to fight some surface ships.

I'm agreed with those who say the convoy/u-boat system should be changed -- dgaad and EB and a few others have all made suggestions I like.

The Italians are also helped by another

sub. It increases the Med' damage to ten instead of five and the two subs make a big difference if you go after the British fleet off Egypt.

Italy did good work with midget subs and frogmen, blowing the bottoms out of two British BBs anchored in Alexandria. The ships dropped to the bottom in shallow water but didn't go under. In a typical turn of events, the British raised and lowered the flags every day and pretended nothing had happened. Observers in the Italian embassy, who saw the crews on deck, reported the vessels as being seaworthy. Amazing how the Royal Navy wins even when it's sunk!

[ October 26, 2002, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Siberian Reinforcements]

Thanks for the good word, pleased we agree on so many of these points.

Your assessment of Japanese logistical inadequacies being unable to support a major land campaign, such as the invasion of Asiatic Russia is probably correct. Also, her generals don't seem to have had any real strategical plan outside of China. Even there, they didn't seem to know if they wanted the whole country or only the most productive eastern provinces.

The admirals appear to have been the strategists.

***

I've had a copy of Operational Art of War for years but have never gotten into it. I read the manuals and the scenario notes, the game looks extremely interesting, but I've never played it. Part of the reason is I'm wary of getting into older programs as it takes a while to learn them and so many are being replaced overnight by newer versions, but I think I'll finally give Operational Art a try pretty soon.

***

You had an earlier site called "World War One or --" regarding possible scenarios -- it's buried a few pages of forums back by now, but I added a project I think might interest you -- it's a subject I've been interested in for a long time, a hypothetical situation based on the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

The idea of the scenario is World War One ending differently; a compromise in the West (Germany withdraws from Belgium and Northern France) and the establishment of the Eukrainian puppet state in the East. Germany keeps Poland and the Austrian and Ottoman Empires met their historical fate.

The situation in Sept 1939 is an alliance of Russia-France and England against Germany, as in 1914, except this time Germany is much more powerful. Also as in 1914 the three allied states are fighting her from the start.

The Allies have the initiative. The Soviets are beginning an invasion from the Smolensk region to divide Eukrania down the middle via Kiev.

In the West England and France are still mobilizing while Germany has completed her mobilization buy hasn't committed her main forces yet.

There are numerous specifics in the entry on your site. I think it's a very interesting situation and one that came very close to happening -- in 1918 the British and French tried to get Germany to accept that very offer, but the Kaiser's government thought they would win it all with the Hindenburg-Ludendorff offensive -- which is another 1939 scenario.

Would be very interested in your opinion -- if you think the idea is drek that's fine; alternate history isn't for everyone and I find myself not overly obsessed by the subject.

***

Don't believe I've read the bio on Yammatto. Read one in the seventies -- is this book that old? But I'm interested in anything on the events leading up to the Pacific War. There's a good, though rather dry book by H.P. Willmott, "Empires in the Balance, Japanese and Allied Pacific Strategies to April 1942" that is filled with useful information but at times the writing becomes absolutely lifeless.

It baffles me that, having decided not to attack Russia, Japan, in her southern strategy, didn't just take the Dutch East Indies without attacking either Britain or the U. S..

Sure, Britain would have gone to war with her, but the gesture would have been meaningless as the UK was very weak in Asia.

Roosevelt would not have been able to get America to declare war, and if he did it would have been known as "Roosevelt's War" and lacked all popular support.

Simply taking the Dutch colonies would have made the U.S. embargo next to meaningless. With Indonesian resources, principally rubber and especially oil for her ships, a one sided war with Britain by herself would have been entirely to Japan's advantage; for all intents and purposes the europeans would have been ousted from the "Far East."

India would have taken her own independance and in all probability the newly independant states would have alligned with Japan. With a little patience her empire could have been peacefully consolodated and the only rival would have been America.

Only a direct attack on an American possession would have gotten the U. S. stirred up enough to fight. All this is another situation I'd like to explore, but it's unlikely any Pacific game would have a starting point other than Pearl Harbor and the historical opening campaigns.

Then, having attacked Pearl Harbor, it baffles me that they didn't follow it up with a landing in force to actually seize the place. The Phillopines would have sat by unable to affect the situation and, without it's Central Pacific Naval Base, America would have been stuck building up on the West Coast for a least a year -- that, and possibly a few distant operations with the Australians and New Zealanders, none of which would have come to much without the additional operations coming out of the Hawaiian Islands.

That's the thing with the Japanese, for all their ruthless tendancies they tended to avoid decisive planning. True, the U. S. would eventually have launched a campaign to retake Hawaii, but it would have been difficult and bloody but by then the Phillipines would have fallen and Japan would have had a secure flow of raw materials from her conquests to her Home Island factories. It would have been an entirely different situation.

The only way I see a Japanese attack on the USSR was if it had been planned in conjunction with the German invasion. That would have been impossible since Hitler chose not to let the Japanese in on his Barbarossa plans and Japan also chose not to inform Germany of their South Plan. What an alliance!

Looking forward to your views on these things.

[ October 27, 2002, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

["HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05]

RicKhan -- Bless the boyscouts, they're a great organization but I sincerely hope they never, NEVER, have anything more in common with the Hitler Youth than being an organization of boys.

The Hitler Youth didn't go camping, they went on maneuvers. They didn't learn outdoor skills, they learned about weapons, tactics, blind discipline and becoming exemplery soldiers and fanatical nazis.

Those who entered the fight at seventeen or older --as late as '44 there was an elite SS panzer unit made up of draft age Hitler Youth that fought the Americans at Normandy-- were ideal soldiers, starting out the equal of normal battle veterans and they often fought with insane fanaticism. They fought against many former boysouts who said as much, some of whom thought they were the nazi version till they ran up against them in battle.

In my posting I was speaking about the organization's value as a training ground for future soldiers. I am not in any way praising it or saying there was anything admirable about it -- there wasn't. For one thing the indoctrination of racial hatred in people of any age is repugnant to me, especially when it is applied to children and adolescents.

They were an entire generation manipulated and brainwashed into robot-like obedience. For the boys involved it wasn't a matter of choice, everything from hero worship to the most extreme peer pressure was applied to first make them join, then to turn them into Germany's future nazis and soldiers.

Along the way the usual games and recreations were added, heavy on athletics, especially boxing and wrestling, to make it all the more appealing to kids in an economically wrecked country living in dismal conditions. A land shocked by defeat with a deflated self-image, a culture turned upside down that desperately wanted both heros and scapegoats.

From the start of the Nazi regime all of Germany's youth were targeted for this procedure. The first groups were actually operating a few years before the Nazis took over. By 1933 the entire system was laid out and operating almost exactly as it would for the rest of the Third Reich's mercifully brief existence.

Girls had similar organizations but were spared combat training.

Hitler deliberately projected himself as a big brother type. The man who had been there and done it for his country [as he would have had it, his race] and expected everyone else to do the same. His weaknesses and shortcomings and certianly any hint of his insanity was kept hidden from the public. What was projected instead was a commoner in a land of aristocrats who had risen to the top, a physically unimpressive type who was a twice decorated war hero. A man who wouldn't tolerate weaknesses like smoking and drinking or being a playboy. German boys were told HE was what they should hope to turn into while German girls were told led to worship him as the ultimate man.

I sure hope there isn't any of that in the boyscouts! The very thought of all this seems idiotic to us now, but must have made perfect sense seventy years ago in Germany.

Anyway, the only thing I wanted to get into was the organization's ability to train future soldiers.

The boys were taught regimentation, not simply marching loosly in step, but the sort of regimentation tought in armies; blind obedience, trusting your life to those around you -- boys who let their comrades down weren't given fatherly talks, they were beaten senseless by the other boys in their unit.

It's an entirely different mentality from scouting. There was no doubt in any of their minds about what they were being prepared for; eternal war and soldiering, a vision of someday retiring with honorable wounds and medals to a farm in the Germanized East, manned by Slavic slaves -- pretty much what the Romans promised their legionaires, if they survived twenty or so years of service, only with them it was Romania.

Along the way they were also encouraged to follow their talents, to join musical groups and compete on teams, to have fun and achieve their personal goals in whatever they excelled in -- but always with the thought that they didn't count as individuals, only as part of a nation.

The goal wasn't membership, it was ownership!

And it was achieved.

Even at the end of the war, when there was no pretense of waiting till the boys reached anything like military age and thirteen year olds were sent to the most hideous slaughters in uniforms three sizes too large with helmets that came down to their eyes, when their lives were simply thrown away wantonly, it was always noted by all adversaries, Western and Russian, that their irrational fanatacism made them the most dangerous troops to fight against.

During the last year of the war, when sensible German war veterans were trying at all costs not to win, but to remain alive, Hitler Youth fighting with them had a life expectancy of one month. They hadn't lived long enough to possess "common sense." They still believed all the lies, especially that their own iron will had to triumph regardless of circumstances.

Men who had survived years of battle and realized it was all hopeless worried more about being shot from behind by armed twelve year olds who thought they were defeatist than being killed by Soviet shock troops who genuinely hated them.

A bunch of boy scouts all right!

I'm sure the boyscouts and many other organizations teach skills that have military applications -- outdoor surviving is a military skill -- but they aren't taught those things because it will make them better soldiers. I hope they aren't being taught blind obedience or philosphies like 'The strong prevail and the weak perish.'

I don't know any scout masters who teach the subtleties of land mines or offer a detailed study of firearms. Do scout masters whisper sweat nothings day after day like, 'To die for the master race is the greatest glory any man can achieve.' I sure hope not.

To compare Hitler Youth to the Boyscouts, 4-H, Junior Achievement or any other youth group -- except those unfortunates currently being trained by terrorist movements --is as totally wrong as saying "Most Germans who joined the nazi party did it the way Americans become Democrats or Republicans (George Patton)."

If there's a Boy Scout organization anywhere on earth that has any of the Hitler Youth's doctrine or curriculum in it's program I'd be concerned.

I'd be VERY concerned!

[ October 26, 2002, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

["HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05]

It's hard to believe German infantry shouldn't start out with some experience bonus after six years of Hitler Youth activities. From '39 on each new crop of cannon fodder must have contained tens of thousands of teen-agers who had learned advanced infantry skills in childhood!

I lean toward that being a factor at least for the first few years. Later in the war there were mixed results, much of which had to do with their being rushed into service.

Toward the end, when Hitler Youth meant thirteen year olds being formed into fighting units and sent directly to the fronts, their value became suspect. Some melted away while others were the most suicidal of fanatics. There's more than one account of seasoned veterans disarming their young reinforcements before surrendering!

The system seems sound, a sort of warrior's prep-school! If Germany had avoided the catastrophic losses outside Moscow and at Stalingrad and Kursk, if the replacement system had remained reasonably in tact throughout the war, there would have been a steady flow each year of Hitler Youth allumni with six or more years infantry training while their British and American counterparts had yet to enter bootcamp.

Also, Hitler Youth academies scattered throughout Germany prepared officers. By sixteen these boys would have routinely mastered advanced subjects such as artillery spotting and field communications.

I can't think of any non-German equivalent and believe it has to be taken into consideration.

[Siberian Reinforcements]

Interesting -- good point about Japanese logistics. I've always thought most of what Japan wanted from the Soviet Pacific region, primarily oil, was fairly close to the Home Islands; no doubt their were greater treasures in the hinterland.

But, as we are all agreed that Moscow and a link to the Caucasus are the greatest priorities, does that mean "War in Manchuria" will automatically be set to off? If not it's only a handicap for the Axis.

After the two Outter Mongolia battles Japan seems to have been genuinely afraid of open warfare against the Soviets. An odd stance for the samuarii mentality to take. Yet it's undeniable that Soviet Troops had little trouble brushing the Japanese aside in both "the undeclared war" and a few years later, during the invasions of Manchuria and Korea.

The Russians regarded Japanese infantrymen highly but had little respect for their officers, especially the most junior. Aside from being led by Zhukov, the Russian Siberian troops also had a big edge in heavy equipment, artillery and air support over the Japanese.

My impression is, by the late thirties Japanese officers in Manchuria were too accustomed to fighting poorly equiped Chinese. The run-ins with the Soviets served as an awakening; their armies achilles tendon was it's lack of effective tanks and heavy field artillery, but strong items with the Soviets. Also, the Japanese Air Force, despite it's elite zero pilots, doesn't appear to have been prepared to face hard opposition nor to either provide ground support or attack enemy ground support.

But apparently nothing was done to correct those weaknesses; probably, Japan's industrial base being what it was, nothing could have been done -- till the war was won against the West and it was expanded.

I'm hoping there will be a Pacific version of this game. For one thing I'd like to see how these two armies are treated in there original positions and what the options are for Russia moving the bulk of her Siberian units west in 1941. I'd like to see if there really was a serious option for attacking Russia instead of the United States.

[ October 25, 2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[German U-boat: a joke]

Agreed about U-Boats; it costs much more to build them than they ever return in shipping damage! They're good for screening battleships and aircraft carriers.

Britain's production level seems very low even without submarines successfully attacking it -- is this part of the game system? i.e., Britain's production has been reduced to reflect not only submarines, but other commerce raiders, such as the prowling merchant men and long range luftwaffe raiders?

In any case, if the U-Boats are made more effective then something should be done about the UK economy; as is it's too paultry to tolerate any further diminishing.

The thing that really puzzles me, though, is whatever happened to the idea of England starving to death if her ships didn't reach port? When I was a kid it was always phrased that way (this was a decade after the fact), that the British Isles couldn't feed it's own population and it's ships were literally it's lifeline. It was stated innumerable times that Britain would have been forced to sue for peace if her ships didn't reach port -- yet, I've never seen that reflected in any of these games.

[Hubert - tiny thought for human players]

The points about reinforcments being too cheap seem more applicable to the Germans and Russians than to the English. For most of the game it's hard for them to keep their units fairly strong while transporting troops to North Africa and scrambling to find a few saved MPPs to put into research. Which is a real change from games like Clash of Steel, where England (if she gets her convoy imports) seems to have way too much --by comparision the UK in SC is very poor!

I'm not sure which system has it right, but I am certain that, if reinforcements were more expensive, there'd be little point in playing the UK.

[Poll - Do you play with "Fog-of-War" on or off?]

ev -- great points about the fog. In Korea, MacArthur didn't believe tens of thousands of Chinese infantry had infiltrated past the U.N. positions and were hiding in the hilly, wooded countryside behind his units on the Manchurian border -- exactly what you were saying.

Terrific stuff to incorporate.

Glad you brought up the Japanese searchplane's defective radio at Midway. Did anything go right for those guys in the entire campaign? Shows how even the right move can turn out wrong.

Then there's always the odd Admiral (the late Admiral Lutgens), who masterfully evades a host of cruisers, convinces the enemy he's heading north when he's really going south but, when all seems safe, fatalistally throws everything away with a longwinded transmission to Der Fuhrer, sealing his fate and that of those under his command. I wonder if things like that can ever be incorporated in a war game.

[ October 26, 2002, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[AAR _ The Longest 6.2 Years.]

Posted that one before I knew about your MOD -- have since downloaded it and started a game as the allies.

I like the way you set the English up in North Africa. Using the Fog option I couldn't see what you did in Libya, presumably you can't activate countries that aren't in the war so it's the original dispositions.

Also, I haven't read most of the changes as I want to play a game against the AI as each side before knowing the details.

It seems best to set the U.S. on historical as Britain should invade both Vichy France and Iraq, as you demonstrated, to boost production. With the U.S. in historical mode Iraq can be burglarized without having to forge pro-axis documents -- you have me wondering if that wasn't what really happened!

Anyhow, what I see so far looks terrific -- the BEF at Manchester is also a good addition.

Having weak units in Egypt covers the point very well -- as you say on the other site, it will take time and MPPs for the Allied player to build the Western Desert Force to the formidable Eighth Army -- only the English could see Egypt as "the Western Desert!"

When I attempted to put Wavell in Egypt, I placed him adjacent to the Alexandria harbor, which might be why he was always transporting himself back to England.

I'm wondering if Wavell would still transport from Eygypt if there's an HQ in England as well -- I'll try it and let you know. I don't think that's making them too strong, the Homeland HQ would be Auchinleck, and he'd provide some protection against an early Sea Lion.

[ October 26, 2002, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

["HISTORICITY MOD version 1.1" updated with new changes and for use with SC 1.05]

Great ideas, it all sounds very good.

As mentioned in dggad's "6.2 years" area, I tried a scenario with Wavel in Egypt and the computer tried transporting him out of the Med' -- his canoes were sunk off Italy as the computer fleet felt he'd complete the journey without any protection. But Wavel in Egypt makes for a better game when playing as the allies; otherwise they're stuck doing nothing in the Middle East for too long.

Anyhow, I'm off to download your creation and will give it a try first as Allies, then as Axis. Sounds like everything is very well thought out and the changes justified, looking forward to trying it.

Southern France was bothering me as well; in reality some of the border was fortified but it didn't need to be as it's already a great naturaly barrier against Italy. True to form the Italian thrust was stopped dead, though in this case it should have been even against better troops and leadership.

[AAR _ The Longest 6.2 Years.]

Continueing from dggads thought -- maybe have Wavel start in Eygypt with a tank unit and the corps at Alexandria facing Balbo in Libya with the army astride Tobruck and a corps occupying it. I tried customizing a scenario with those changes and when the computer had the allies it always attempted to ship Wavel and the tank through the Med and presumably on to England. They were lost at sea, however, because the computer chose not to escort them; the carrier and other ships remained at Alexandria!

[AAR _ The Longest 6.2 Years.]

A Great Soviet Triumph after much suffering with some belated assitance from the West!

[Poll - Do you play with "Fog-of-War" on or off?]

Avalon Hill put out a "Battle of Midway" board game a long time ago (all right, a very, very long time ago!) in which the players were supposed to be seperated by a cardboard barrier (it's the truth) dividing two identical grids representing Midway Island and zillions of miles of the northern Pacific in all directions. At the start of each player's move he'd ask the other player if such and such a square on his side of the barrier contained anything, simulating long range search aircraft.

Another fourteen year old and myself were attempting this exercise in honesty. After an hour or so of scanty results I decided I was being too truthful and the other guy was holding out, so I started doing the same.

Next thing you know neither of us were locating anything -- every search was the same, "Anything there?" -- "No."; "Anything there?" -- "No." Till we both had the same idea at the same time and yanked the barrier away. Naturally both fleets were right in the middle of our search patterns! We each let out a shocked squel of that old standard, "You cheater!" and switched to another game where the "fog" wasn't as essential.

In nothing else it was reassuring to find my best friend was as much a scoundrel as his best friend.

An odd thing about the game itself was the Japanese really had no need for subleties, all he had to do was send his fleet to Midway and take it -- the Americans were too weak to defend the place and there was no way for the historical "Miracle at Midway" attack on the Japanese carriers actually come about. Also, the landbased B-17s Nagumo was so worried about didn't perform well in the game.

Anyhow, after all those years of being forced to either trust my opponent (and equally bad, expect him to trust me!) or see every unit in plain sight, I was overjoyed to play a computer war game and have wonderful nothingness beyond my own borders.

[Poll - Do you play with "Fog-of-War" on or off?]

EB -- Interesting chess idea but it's a peculuiar situation. The best players (expert or master on up; which would start at the upper 5% of all tournament players, generally visualize the situation anyway, in effect, playing blindfold.

On that level the board and pieces help but aren't really needed; good players see the board and all the pieces clearly even while walking around the room -- in tournaments most players spend a lot of time wandering around, away from their own game, glancing at other games; upon returning a sort of instant recall kicks in to update everying incorporating the opponents latest move.

I have yet to understand the "walking around the room syndrome" beyong the fact that sitting at a table looking at your own game becomes fatigueing when done for hours at a time.

Not everyone has the same blindfold ability; some terrible players are very good at it and some very good players are below average at visualization, but generally the better the player the better they are at visualizing.

Anyway, in the piece and board aspect of things, chess is much simpler than this sort of game, there being only 32 pieces for both sides with just 64 squares for them to wander across. No dice, no element of chance, nothing, just a simple game with nearly infinite calculations and volumes of prepared lines, all of which seem to be known by the adversary.

--

"The winner makes the next to last mistake."

Old proverb (Savilly Tartakover)

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[ October 25, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]