JerseyJohn
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Posts posted by JerseyJohn
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But even the mature Fuhrer, undoubtedly taken unawares, finds time to relax at home with his last mistress, Eva Braun. The household staff and personal secretaries never saw his darker side and genuinely enjoyed his companionship.
[ November 06, 2002, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Exactly --
What's worse, a lot of the work at that Belgian fort was done by German contractors (Eben Emal) and German troops had the blueprints! God was that Gamey.
A Union hero, Joshua Chamberlain, was not a military man yet he became a general. One of his gamier days ocurred in "The Wilderness" where, covered with dust he appeared to be wearing gray -- several southern infantrymen approached and saw him holding an officer's sabre -- instead of surrendering he faked a southern accent and said, "The jig's up, boys, them bluebellies are all over the place -- they got us surrounded" and, instead of surrendering himself, returned to his lines with prisoners.
Histories full of these things -- formations marching in circles so they'd be counted over and over again by observers -- you name it.
Tactical limits should be built into the game engine, not defined by self-appointed purists.
The sort of exception is the one mentioned much earlier by Zeres where Italy is knocked out on the first turn due to faulty OB placement. That's something that should be corrected within the scenario. The place was defended, period. True, defended by guys with obsolete weapons and pressed cardboard boots, but defended none the less.
[ November 01, 2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Gamey -- What the other guy does that you don't care to do.
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The earlier definition that abusing the game system, as in the Italian case, seems a good example. Other than taking advantage of game mechanics, any way a player cares to go about conducting his war should be okay.
People forget England and France were on their way to mine the Norwegian fiords and land troops to occupy strategic points almost simultaneously with the German invasion. Why was one an invasion and the other an action?
Then there were the fiascos in Syria and Iraq, very flimsy provocation for allied takeovers -- Vichy neutrality was treated as a joke by Britain, the shelling of Mers el Kebir and the failed assualt on Dakar are two examples.
As late as 1944 Churchill wanted to land in Portugal and have the allies fight their way north through Spain instead of landing at Normandy, which he feared would be a failure -- meanwhile, what about Portuguese and Spanish neutrality?
Those were blurred, confused years. The game leaves a lot of actions open to both sides and not attacking a given country because someone else says it's gamey seems meaningless.
Meanwhile, what are they doing that's so pure?
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A young Hitler flirting before he decided it didn't fit his image.
An even younger Hitler being released from his short stay at Landsberg Prison where, together with Rudolf Hess, he wrote "Mein Kampf."
Evolving quickly into "Der Fuhrer."
[ November 06, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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"The unprovoked aggression of Poland and France upon the Reich and it's neighbors, and their contemptable effort to destroy the Aaryan Race, shall not go unpunished!" :mad:
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Later that evening Goebells' propaganda ministry finished editing film footage of Dutch and Belgian refugees with their wagons and bikes flowing toward Germany and "freedom."
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Other German newsreels show Belgium's King Leopold the Third in field uniform. In some he is seen with wehrmacht advisers inspecting military hospitals near the front.
Queen Wilhemina of Holland, whose country was also invaded to protect the French flank, is distraught, telling a German interviewer, "We are very confused and deeply upset by all this --we considered the French and British to be our friends and --"
The German interviewer cuts in sympathetically asking about German aid and she sobs.
"Yes, the German people have been wonderful in helping us, evacuating many of our wounded and, despite being involved in their own war, they have sent troops and supplies. The peaceful Dutch thank the Fuhrer and the kind citizens of the Reich."
Photos of the two displaced monarchs in the same vehicle withdrawing to Germany are also taken.
What is not shown, however, is defeated and demoralized Belgian and Dutch troops, without weapons, streaming en-masse passed a trickle of German reinforcements, often single infantrymen among the mobs of defeated, grimly going against the great tide, making their way to the front.
Organizing a dogged resistance with scant German infantry units and rallied Low Landers, is a general of high regard in the Wehrmacht, Walter Model.
Technically promoted, he will command fewer troops -- at least at first -- in Belgium and Holland than he commanded in Poland.
Before departing, his former commander, Gerd von Runstedt leads him out of earshot in a pleasant stroll.
"I'm sorry my boy, it's a thankless job you're getting and you were my finest corps commander. Still, they asked me to recommend someone --"
"And I'm honored, herr Generaloberst!"
"Yes, yes, but judgeing by the numbers you're commanding, it's a job more befitting a corporal than a general officer. How appropriate it's a corporal who's sending you!"
There's an uneasy silence. Even as a generalleutnant Model was unaccustomed to such brazen disrespect for the Fuhrer. Perhaps that was okay for Prussian aristocrats like von Runstedt and von Bock, but he was not of their class, nor of their rank, and it seemed unfair of the senior officer to make such a remark even in private.
"I ought to have close to --"
"Yes, yes, but only if you count the Dutch and Belgians, which I advise you not to do. Most of those units are already routed."
"I wasn't told of that!"
"It was being saved as a surprise, I suppose."
Runstedt smiled, almost grandfatherly, and extended his right hand. "Don't mind me, my lad, it's just an old man's melancholy, nothing more." Model felt relieved and thought 'a strong grip for anyone, but especially for a man called out of retirement!'
"Dig in, my boy, we'll be finished here quite soon and winter is approaching. Before Spring we'll be there in stregnth so don't be a hero, keep falling back and digging in again, even if you need do it all the way to the Rhine. And for pity sake don't allow yourself to overrun."
"I won't."
"That's the spirit. Mark my words, lad, they'll attack like all fury for a while, then they'll run out of steam. They always do, those Frenchmen, and they have no fight in them this time."
"Thank you, I'll remember that."
"Yes, but also remember that the same can be said of our Dutch and Belgian allies!"
[ November 09, 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Being a critic and an enthusiast, I can truthfully say nothing will ever quiet them!
At least with the scenario editor you can, if you're so inclined, try to make things absolutely accurate, or go to the other extreme and say things like -- "Suppose so and so had rockets and Jets L-5 in 1939 -- " etc.,
Agreed with your basic premise, it's primarily a game with an historical backdrop, play scenarios, make scenarios, post comments, but mostly just enjoy it.
One thing is certain, none of us will get an invitation from The History Channel to discuss our strategies in virtual WW II, Europe.
I'm beginning to enjoy the forums more than the game itself. Which sort of worries me.
[ October 31, 2002, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Hitler and British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain. Already a very sick man, Chamberlain hoped he might avert war but gave Hitler too much confidence in his concessions.
Too late in taking a stand with Poland and France, Chamberlain, more than any other single man other than Hitler himself, is traditionally blamed with setting the stage for WW II. But there is much merit in his belief that the "Empire" would collapse after a major war, and in that, at least, he was correct.
An elderly and frail gentleman in 1938, he made his first air flight to meet Hitler at Munich.
**** ***** *****
Hermann Goering, holder of many dubious posts in the Reich -- founder of the Gestapo, Chief Minister of Justice for Bavaria, etc., Reichsmarshal and, if nothing else was going on, Supreme Commander of The Luftwaffe.
A lover of model trains, hunting and animals, he was not above sharing the spotlight with lions, or if necessary, his daughter!
[ November 14, 2002, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Flash --
A forum a few pages back (North America) went into this in great detail and reached exactly that conclusion, or a similar one, that it would have needed the full resources of the Axis after having conquered Britain.
Also, the U. S. would be screaming Monroe Doctrine and even the most extreme isolationist would have enlisted!
Even with the large ocean fleet Hitler was planning in post war musings I think a better chance would have been West Africa - Brazil -Caribean, (Just like in Risk) where a sensible base of operations could have been established.
Where's the North Atlantic springboard, Iceland/Greenland? I don't think that would have worked if for no other reason, the long seasons of bad weather.
[ October 31, 2002, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Flash -- I like the revised "Faith-Hope & Charity" story better than the one I remembered, and it definitely does sound like propaganda.
In one game an early German breakthrough in rocketry (one chit, quick hits in research bringing it to L-3 so I bought 3 of them) enabled me to operat three units to Sicily. As though by design, the research level, with the same single chit, rose to L-5 as I placed the units, one crawling right to Sicily's southern tip. Combined with air and sea attacks, the 3 L-5 rockets proved decisive against Malta.
I wouldn't plan on that sort of opportunity, but it was fun as a one time occurence.
[ October 31, 2002, 09:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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I find the Axis A.I. more aggressive and definitely smarter. The Allied A.I. waits to get hit then repairs itself; if it isn't too bludgeoned in Russia it does some aggressive things, but still not as aggressive as it's actions against the Allies.
As Allies I bring all the French BBs to the Med against the Italians and try not to lose any of the British fleet there. Early on I transfer the fleet around Alexandria to Malta, oper the airfleet there to Egypt and oper the Bomber fleet from England to Malta. The added range of the bombers is a help against the Italian navy. The air fleet from Malta is a big help against Iraq and Syria -- I pull the French Corps out of there and march it to Eygypt and transfer the other French corps from Algeria also to Egypt, so as to have them after France falls.
It's disappointing that the Axis A.I. doesn't make an early try for England and also that England can't defend itself more adequately in the event it is attempted. I think that's all wrong historically, as after Dunkirk the Brits strung obstacles and mines all along their Channel coast and raised a fairly large number of divisions to defend the area. In the game, an enterprising Axis player can find ways to knock Britain out early, despite the Royal Navy's notorious counter attack.
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I'd go with the non-historical definition, but at this point I only care about history in suggestions to the forums, where the ideas might be put into future game design. In playing the game; as Axis, if it lets me invade Canada, so be it. I know it's historically doubtful, probably even an impossibility, but if I want to do it, that's the way it is. Call me gamey, so what, I've been called worse.
[ October 31, 2002, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Agreed on Grisby's approach, at the end of a turn I'd look for a time-clock, too much like work.
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Same here, Rick's suggestion are the best settings -- in the same boat for playing humans; odd schedule.
[ October 31, 2002, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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SeaMonkey --
My apologies, went too far in a cranky mood and meant none of it.
Toward the end of that earlier entry I even put myself to sleep, which was good as I needed it.
It's those damn depth charges and a leaky hull, that's why my nerves are frayed.
[ October 31, 2002, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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dgaad's Mod is a vast improvement. Martinov also has a scenario posted for '39 that stregnthens Egypt and is also a vast improvement.
The first time I played the allies using the game scenario for '39 I was baffled by the British in the Middle East. The numbers make sense, they only had 35,000 or so men there at war's start, but they increased that quickly and put all their tanks and a lot of air support in the theater, which is nearly impossible in the game scenario, so I'm glad those two intrepid souls have created alternatives.
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Against Malta I found at least two Luftwaffe units attacking with all the Italian ships were necessary plus, as soon as Italy can afford it, an Italian air fleet. Italy needs to transport a corps and keep it astride the island while all this is going on.
Sometimes it falls with unanticipated ease, but usually it holds out till you're cursing it, which I think is true to history.
The British, at one point when Germany and Italy applied these tactics, were down to three Hurricanes which they dubbed "Faith, Hope and Charity." They held out till the weather cleared in Russia and the Luftwaffe units were transferred.
Rommel cancelled the follow up landing, which would have involved German and Italian paratroopers and supporting infantry. He used those troops instead at El Alemein. His reasoning was that Malta would be unimportant after he captured Alexandria! Maybe so, but he put the cart before the horse and paid for it.
As in the real war, I've found Malta needs to be taken before Italy can really do anything.
As the allies against the AI I've lifted the British air fleet to Egypt and Operated the British Bomber unit to Malta in it's place; it's expensive so early in the war, but the bomber's increased range helps against the Italian navy and the air fleet relocated in Egypt makes it possible to take Syria, Iraq, and Tobruk.
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And a very good one!
America built more ships in '42 & '43 than Japan built in the 20's and 30's. Once the American economy became geared for the war it was a collosas. I think the game represents this by starting the U. S. with army sized units -- by the time they'd get across the ocean a huge support system would be required and it's invisible in the game, but accounted for.
The liberty ship entry is interesting but nobody has to worry about the size of their merchant marine, so it doesn't go directly into play.
The carriers are also a good point -- in this case the small escort carriers weren't much use against either capital ships or in combat against shore positions; their only real use was against U-Boats. During the war the U.S. posted only one full-sized carrier in the Atlantic.
Escort carriers were usually converted cruisers that moved slowly with all the added weight, around 20 knots, which was faster than merchantmen but slower than troop transports (which were rarely attacked by U-boats; ofthen they peacetime luxury liners like the Queen Mary. When the convoy was attacked by U-Boats the escort carrier tended to be vulnerable and a prime target. Several, including the original ship, were sunk.
I like the idea of wolf packs limping home and the ships that attacked them limping back to their own ports, which was the situation I got from Martinov's scenario. A quick fight, only one BB instead of the whole combined fleet, damage to both sides, and a successful break afterwards.
The two damaged wolf packs might have stayed where they were and sunk the attacker, but at least one would have been lost and the other, having remained in place, might have been found by other ships and sunk as well, so I skedaddled to have them fight again later. It seemed similar to real North Atlantic action.
[ October 31, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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A Pacific version would seem reasonable in the game system, but the required map, presumably stretching from Inia in the west to -- what? In the East should it end with Hawaii or the West Coast U.S.? North to South, should it go from the Aleutions and Kamchatka to New Zealand and the Tasmania? That map would make this one seem like child's play; and there's a lot of griping about this map -- the western edge abstraction or Canada and the U. S.. In a Pacific version they might be the eastern edge abstractions.
Despite which, I'd also like to see this thing adapted to the Pacific and the title implies it will happen. The only Pacific strategy treatments I know of were both DOS -- Gary Grisby's game and the Grandest Fleet (?) Pacific War (?) -- both of which were good, but this system is more fun.
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Bravo, urgrue!
[ October 31, 2002, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Martinov --
After looking at your scenario in the editor I found a few surprises -- kept U. S. A. at 4 research chits, changed German U-Boat Tech to L-2 and put Jet Tech back to 1; British Sonar at L-1, Soviet German and Brit research at 2 chits, Italian and French at 1 each. Decided to keep the understegnth German bomber; with all the discussion, Germany can simply build one after taking Poland -- only a mild stretch of things.
I think the levels now discussed are good.
Will start from Poland again, add Denmark and Norway campaigns before France, and let you know how it plays.
[ October 31, 2002, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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I/O
Sorry for being so friendly! :confused:
In my first post here I agreed fully with your observation about bombers -- Germany was way behind in this department to the point of using converted cargo planes. Additionally, it stands to reason I agree that the Axis should not have a bomber unit, but he's given England 2 of them and from what I've played so far the German bomber unit's main value is in spotting French units beyond the Maginot Line as there aren't sufficient fighters in the west to escort raids over France. Germany did have that sort of air recon capability.
In the Atlantic it seems Martinov's measures provide a quick fix.
It wasn't too drastic in the spin I gave it but, as I said, L-4 combined with Britain having L-0 on sonar might have drastic effects very quickly.
It's difficult to judge a lot of this historically. Things were done like sending U-Boats to the Med and having Itlian subs in the Atlantic (which can hardly be done in the game as Italy is not about to keep the Gibraltar harbor reduced). It made little sense as the Italian subs were not effective except as transports (they were larger than normal) and the clear Mediteranean water made U-Boats easy prey for aircraft.
Additionally, many German U-Boats were posted along the Nowegian coast. They might have been obsolete models, but Doenitz was upset about being forced to place them there, so it's just as likely they were updated models.
I would opt for U-Boat technology of L-2 as it was one of Germany's trump cards and the game does not reflect that; this is also a perfect split between the games L-0 and Martinov's L-4.
I also think Britain should have Sonar L-1; with the 2 Atlantic subs relocated their survival chances should be more than adequate.
Agreed on the research, as stated earlier.
Starting chits of 2 for Germany, Britain and Russian, maybe 3 for the U. S., and 1 for Italy and France should do the job. Everyone conducted some pre-war research so they would have staffs upon entering.
Russia came up with some good advances like the T-34, KV-tanks, Stalin Organs, and the AK-47, but I agree that these were achieved over time, and they're starting out with Heavy Tanks L-2 (the game has it as L-1) so they seem okay.
In other areas Russia never got very far, no radar and before caturing german scientists they had no inkling of jets -- two research chits shouldn't be excessive.
I like the way it's played so far, which is late July 1940, Poland, Low Countries and France havinh fallen, the Atlantic U-Boats are limping to port unsupplied after being attacked.
I should have gone for Denmark and Norway after Poland to test things more thoroughly. Might go back and give it a try to see how it affects the mix (two additional plunders, etc.).
I/O has a good point about the bomber unit; Germany had some four engine designs but they weren't buiding them, ergo they had no heavy bombers at the start and only condors later on. They flew a four engine model round trip to New York's Long Island during the war and had some technology but never built a heavy bomber wing.
I'd give that one to I/O and change Marinov's German Bomber to an air fleet. For one thing, a Bomber wing in '39 would influence the Denmark Norway campaigns I'm planning on the next run, and would be effective against British ships in the North Sea after Germany takes Bergen.
Will start the Martinov scenario again but with the following modifications: Britain has sonar L-1, Germany has U-Boat L-2, Germany, Britain & Russia start with 2 unnasigned research chits, U.S.A. starts with 3 (Despite initial unpreparedness America came up with many great innovations in only a couple of years), Italy and France start with 1 each. In playing pieces the German Bomber unit becomes a regular air fleet. No other changes seem warrented. I'll post the flow of play as I go along.
As it seems I need a change of image I'm ending things with a growl, no friendliness at all, a mad dog, see -- :mad:
[ October 31, 2002, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Martinov --
No appologies needed for the "drastic" U-Boat measures or anything else -- aside from which, read on . . ..
Played the scenario as Axis through the Fall of France and enjoyed it a lot.
Set the AI on expert with +2.
Reinforced the BB Bismark a point a time to maintain it's skill status, did the same with most other units.
Poland fought like hell and went under by late October, despite Warsaw's falling earlier. Good changes, enjoyed the fight.
France also fought like hell and surrendered in late July. The tank unit gives it extra punch but somehow France is always a hopeless cause.
Naturally I targetted the French Armor after breaking through, but that also served to give Paris itself a slight breather, though she fell soon afterwards.
I like the idea of a French HQ. He was in Bordeux, drunk, the day Paris fell. In gratitude we awarded him the Iron Cross, Order of Foreign Incompetants and provided free passage to England.
Their real commander didn't believe in telephones or communication with his subordinates, mostly he holed up in a villa and sipped wine while looking at maps. Probably the poor s.o.b. was manic depressed and who could blame him. He said his job should be done in broad strokes and was not concerned with Army operations. Sort of makes sense, but at least one phone for ordering pizza was a necessity!
The second CinC was a man in his mid-seventies replacing a man in his mid-sixties! By then it made little difference and neither did he, though he did install a phone, but once the fighting resumed they could never find anyone anyway. The one incoming call was to tell him the war in France was over. What a gyp!
With your changes Germany needs to do a bit more preparation for the Lowlands/French campaigns than in the normal '39 scenario, but that makes it more fun.
The U-Boat idea works, they inflict damage, though not too much, and best of all, thanks largely to your relocating them, both subs survive for later action.
No getting away from the fact The Battle of the Atlantic in SC could use revising, but your measure helps it work as is. I don't what effect Germany's U-Boat L-4 will have further down the road.
Actually, Doenitz didn't incorporate many new inovations from '39 thru '43, when they were forced due to improved Allied methods. Mostly, in the early years, the Germans replaced obsolete U-Boats with larger, better ones that were already designed at the start of the war; maybe they had L-4, or at least L-3 already!
The 1944 improvements would have finished the process, snorkel etc., but by then it was too late. So -- I'd hold off on changing it, but would give the Brits their L-1 sonar; I have a feeling when the Bay of Biscay becomes Axis operational Britain will need a few breaks.
Meanwhile some obnoxius Limey tanks are sniffing around Tobruk -- Momma Mia!
Terrific Job.
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Sea Monkey --
Naturally this version couldn't handle those suggestions and much of it is a different approach to the game, which I stated.
SC is fine as a game, but can never, with all the scenario edititing anyone can come up with, satisfy the suggestions that are being posted on virtually every forum that gets created.
The only answer I can see is -- instead of imposing impossible corrections on SC and distorting it beyond recognition -- to leave it as is and apply the current ideas to a more advanced game on the same subject.
My suggestions -- and at least they were suggestions and not just submental sarcasm -- were not to start on a strategic map and keep toggling and zooming till everything's focussed on a fox hole. That you saw it that way is unfortunate.
I wrote a method for greater realism and immediately said I thought it was impractical and suggested alternatives, but apparently you aren't interested in examing ideas and suggesting any of your own, flinging sarcasms like an annoying child is easier and makes the child feel he's saying something brilliant.
[ October 31, 2002, 01:13 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
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Also, Zeres, as discussed at great legnth in the earlier North American forum, it has unintended and more than a bit ridiculous options like an Axis invasion of Canada after taking France and building a few escort units! I picture a Mountie watching from a hill and calmly saying, "We're being invaded, hey."
It's probably possible to invade the U. S. as well, in fact I'm certain it would be, but I can't bring myself to do it. An uncle of mine would have seen it from the long defunct Brooklyn Navy Yard, "Who the hell are dey, Joimans? Jeez'n crackers, this is serious!"
[ October 30, 2002, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]
AAR: The Fall and Rise of the Free French!!!
in Strategic Command 1
Posted
The fuhrer paced back and forth in his new French chateau. "What do you mean they won't discuss peace terms?" His aides sipped confiscated cherry and thought, 'too sweet, it's the sort of thing that cost them the war.'
Ribbentrop was the first to answer. "Fuhrer, we have put out feelers -- here's one, 'People of Britain, you have fought hard but for an unworthy cause, now that the loathsome Polish and French aggressors have been subdued, freedom loving people like ourselves can once more enjoy the pleasures of peace. We are all Nordic people and should not fight one another.'
The fuhrer nodded approvingly, "And what was their response?"
Rudolf Hess, mimicking Churchill, "We shall fight them on the beaches, we shall fight them in the halls, in the kitchen, even the bathroom!"
Field Marshal von Runstedt nodded, "And those Italian inepts are giving them cause to be encouraged. I did say that, if they joined us, we'd have to send twelve divisions to bail them out. That's looking a conservative figure at the moment." He smiled smuggly and sat back.
The fuhrer twitched with anger and anxiety, but said nothing more.
[ November 06, 2002, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]