76mm
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Posts posted by 76mm
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You could definitely put Soviet marines in with the Finns etc. We are all just tossing suggestions out there so if you don't like my suggestion then perhaps you can list your own suggestion.
Actually I'd be happy with:
Lend Lease
Partisans
SS
Luftwaffe Field Divisions
and as a bonus, Hungarians or Romanians
I thought, though, that the next module will take CMRT through the end of the war, so I assumed it would cover Berlin and that theater? While I agree that Hungary would generally be more interesting, I'd like to end up in Berlin eventually--is there any clarity on how many modules there will be for CMRT?
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Module 1 extends the time frame to the end of the war and includes:
Luftwaffe Field Divisions
Mountain Troops
Finns
Special German regular army TO&Es such as Gross Deutschland who fought in the north and in Prussia and Panzer Brigades etc.
Module 2
Waffen SS
Hungarians
Romanians
Lend Lease
Gee, maybe it would be nice if the first module included something for the Soviet side, and generally more than one item out of eight in both modules?
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Excellent Sergei, thanks for the tip, I will check it out. Even two hundred would probably be enough--there are probably about 100 unique maps at this point.
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A Google Doc spreadsheet would do nicely.
Good idear, hadn't thought of this, but I could probably figure this out. But before spending much time on it, a couple of basic questions:
1) Do you know if I can attach images within a google doc spreadsheet? Currently each map is on its own tab, with hyperlinks to/from the index and the maps.
2) Is there a limit on the number of tabs? I would hate to spend the time creating a google docs spreadsheet only to find that I can only create 99 tabs, etc.
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I'd be happy to wiki-ise this DB, although:
1) I have no idea how to create a wiki! I could host it on my site if anyone volunteers to set it up. At some point I will try to figure this out on my own, but it could be awhile.
2) generally with databases I've found that it's helpful if a consistent approach is followed, which is obviously easier if a single person does it, although it would also be fairly easy to coordinate with anyone else interested in doing this. I have issues I want to fix before distributing this thing, but I should be able to do all of them fairly quickly other the 3D screenies for the reason described.
In this vein, I'll add that one of the challenges so far has been classifying the maps; I'm trying to classify them by ground cover (open, broken, mixed, woods, swamp, urban), relief (flat, rolling, hills), and buildings (farm, village, town, city). Deciding what is "flat terrain" vs "rolling terrain" vs "hilly terrain", and what is a "farm" vs a "village" vs a "town", has been a pretty subjective process (at least the way I'm doing it). I'll provide notes on my "methodology" (such as it is) with the DB.
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I've finished a first draft of this--132 maps altogether, although many of them are not unique (ie, many are submaps or alternates of other maps). I need to clean things up quite a bit before distributing, but hopefully soon...
The further I went, the more I was convinced that eniced73 was correct that a 3D view would be helpful; unfortunately for some reason when I take screenshots in the 3d view, trees don't show up at all, so I can't take these screenies myself! If anyone is interested in helping with 3D screenshots, please ping me.
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Ooops, hadn't read that far in your tutorial yet...
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76mm,
I loaded your map and SeinfeldRules version. I definitely thought yours was "CMx1"-ish.
Hey, I resemble that remark! :-)
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One more tip:
when you're using fences/walls/hedges, give serious consideration to NOT using the '+', 'X' and 'T' pieces. They're hella tempting because they're so useful, but they really screw with infantry and vehicle movement.
Sorry, you lost me here--could you elaborate? How do they screw with movement, and what to use in place of them??
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Another question: beneath the trees and bushes, you can select one, two or three trees/bushes. If I understood him correctly, SeinfeldRules suggests only using one tree per tile. What is the consensus about using the "three tree" option vs Lt Forest or Hvy Forest?
Also, from my very limited experience, using one bush leaves them very thin on the ground, should "three bushes" be the default?
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One of the choices for tree density has little lines on it that means they will line up with trees in other tiles and look like humans planted them.
Thanks, I was wondering what that one was...
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I thought about adding some 3D shots, but the top down ones are pretty muddy, and something from lower elevation only shows part of the map. What did you have in mind?
I've also added a column to credit the author, given how much work these maps are.
I did 21 maps today, including several of the master maps, which are a pain since I need to stitch several screenshots together. I'll try to do more tomorrow, and hopefully finish up in a week or two.
Quick battle maps can also be loaded in the editor and used for scenarios, right? If so, counting them I think we'll have several dozen maps to start with.
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Rokko, thanks. What trees do you use for orchards?
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Also, it looks kinda weird to place crops right next to buildings.
Good catch; I was wondering about this--those crops are meant to be the little gardens that Russian keep to grow vegetables, etc. for themselves. Often they are right by dwellings to that people can tend them easier, etc.
I would think that in 1944 Belorussia people had gardens everywhere possible to supplement their meager wartime rations. Would a different tile work better? Or I saw a "garden" flavor item but didn't look at it closely.
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Thanks everyone for the tips. I had seen how to cycle through windows etc. but didn't realize that I could get rid of entire walls the same way.
Tomorrow I'll try to combine everyone's comments into a summary and post in this thread, just so that everything is a bit more tidy.
That first map wasn't really intended for any particular scenario, I just wanted something with buildings, fields, and a road, but nothing too complicated. I'll try something similar for my next effort.
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JonS, thanks for the very helpful tips.
One question: I agree that taking out interior walls will allow me to create the types of buildings I mentioned, but I couldn't see how that is possible--I didn't see anything in the manual (or in your tutorial), although I might have overlooked something.
This map-making sounds like hard work! Would any of you experienced map guys estimate how long it would take you to create an "average" map? I guess size would be one determining factor, so maybe 1km x 1km?
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Good tips for Google earth as well.
I've read your comments more carefully now, and with one exception (see below) all of them sound great.
The only issue I might disagree with you about is using fencing or walls for dividing fields, etc. in the Soviet context. I've travelled extensively in Russia and to some extent in Ukraine (never been to Belorussia, but...) and fences or walls setting off fields seems very rare. Obviously there should be some fences around livestock enclosures, etc. but not really around fields.
From what I've seen, in the present day there is usually kind of a scrubby line of trees/bushes around the edges of a field, and of course the field might well stop there for some reason--a little gully, a hillock, a dirt road, etc. I do agree that fields generally should not just stop--there should at least be a line of brush or something to mark the border between the field and the adjoining terrain.
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I don't think I've seen a database of all of the CMRT maps out there--has anyone prepared one?
If not, I think it would be helpful for people thinking about creating scenarios to see if an existing map might suit their needs.
I've taken a stab at creating such a database, with columns describing map size, ground cover, relief, road networks, rivers, damage, etc. I've also included an image of the map so people can take a look for themselves. Here is the draft DB (Excel spreadsheet), which is work in progress:
http://www.vervecom.net/games/CMRT%20Map%20DB%20v0.xlsx
Before I got too far into this, I wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions about how to improve it, or whether this type of DB has any utility at all (or if one already exists, tell me to stop!)
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SeinfeldRules, thanks much for the tips. I took a quick read but will read them more carefully while looking at your revised map--thanks again.
By the way, how did you find that grid square on Google Earth--did you just search for Broshka, or was it more complicated than that?
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I made a bunch of maps in CMx1, but until Red Thunder came out, I wasn't particularly interested in CMx2, so didn't make a single map...
I'd like to get back into making maps and hopefully scenarios, so have spent some time trying to recreate a grid square from a Soviet topo map of the area around Bobruisk. Frankly, it doesn't look right to me, but I can't put my finger on the problem(s), so I'd appreciate some constructive criticism.
Here is the topo map:
http://www.vervecom.net/games/RKKA050_N-35-107-C_Bobrujsk_1937_greif.jpg
Here is the grid square from the topo map (grid 83-38), the village of Broshka:
Here is the resulting map:
http://www.vervecom.net/games/First%20Map.btt
A couple of issues that I think I have:
1) This first time, I'm kind of struggling with the elevation controls in the map editor. I read JonS' tutorial after doing the elevation on my map, so will try using some of his tips next time, but would welcome any other tips. In particular:
a) the terrain seems too even and smooth on this map;
when working from contour lines on a topo map, at the top of a hill, within the contour lines, I guess I should go up half a contour interval or so, so avoid flat-topped plateaus--correct?2) Vegetation: Ugh. Either too thick or too thin, too uniform or too weirdly varied. To mix things up a bit, I put a bunch of different types of grasses, etc. in the big open space in the middle, but don't really see much of a difference. I tried to create thick bushes around the swampy low ground in the middle, but got a couple of bushes scattered around. Help!
3) A couple of comments/criticisms of the Buildings/Flavor items in CMRT:
a) Buildings: I'm surprised by the lack of variety in the buildings. I don't see any warehouse/factory type structures, did I miss them? As far as I can tell, there are really no large building types whatsoever. Russia is not like Europe, full of quaint little buildings--the Soviets in particular built things rather large--workshops, warehouses, worker housing, etc. Hopefully this will be addressed by the next East Front title.
Flavor Items: I tried to add quite a few flavor items to the map, but didn't think that most of them are appropriate for Belorussia 1944. Streetlamps? Fountains? Street signs? Hahaha. Again, it looks like they just mostly ported over the stuff from CMBN, etc. Some of the stuff is good--the junk piles, farm items, but you can only use this stuff so much. Let me know your thoughts about how I used flavor items on this map.In addition to fixing up this map, I'd like to try some other small (1km x 1km) maps based on topo maps; if someone is interested in creating a scenario based on a topo map grid, let me know, and given some time I'd probably be able to create a map for you. I think this size map would be about right for creating some smallish scenarios.
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Cellars less so. I feel that the line of verisimilitude breakdown lies somewhere between "being able to tell that it's one big house" and "knowing there's a cellar under the east wing from a mile away"
But at a range of one mile (or whatever), who cares if a building has a cellar or not? Until you're within small arms/assault range, you're presumably simply aiming at the building (or assuming that the enemy has defenses there), so the existence of the building, which is obvious, is the main thing.
Foxholes are different, since their presence is more of a direct inference to the presence of enemy troops that you wouldn't otherwise know about.
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Well, that's an impressive (and presumably expensive) collection of die-cast models.
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Regarding "Booty troops", again according to Dunn, they probably broke down into two groups.
The first group would be men in their late 20s or 30s who had previous military training pre-war and some of which had served with Partisans. They were the ones who were sent directly to front line units. The Soviets classified them as "untrained", but they were really re-called reservists. Again whether they should be classified as low motivation regulars or green is debatable.
The second group of "Booty Troops" were young men in their teens or early 20s who had no prior military training. Again according to Dunn, evidence suggests most were probably sent to basic training like the regular replacements.
A "typical" Russian infantry unit in june 44 was probably composed of about one-third freshly arrived 18 year olds, a second group less than one-third composed of veterans, some of which could be in their 40s who would have been with the unit since 41 or 42 and the rest in their late teens, early 20s who would have been with the unit a few months up to 2 years.
I don't have a good feel for which proportion of replacements fell into which categories, although as mentioned, while in theory the booty troops were supposed to be sent back for training before being assigned to units, in practice this was often not done.
And yes, they were sent to experienced units so that each squad would have a couple of veterans to stiffen and train the new booty troops.
Also, from what I've read, there were few soldiers left from 1941 by 1944, the attrition rate was just too high. I've read many of the available memoirs of Soviet front-line soldiers, and most of them didn't last more than a year or two on the front before being invalided out or finding a more cushy REMF job.
Also, while some of these booty troops came from partisan units, my understanding is that many or even most did not, and that in any event most partisan units had very little actual combat experience to speak of, although presumably they had at least rudimentary weapons training.
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Lets remember what is meant by 'conscript'. It means the local grammar school teacher pulled out of class, handed a uniform and a gun and told to do his duty...I'd imagine by Bagration (which Russia heavily prepared for) the incidents of Russian units at conscript level would be small and shrinking.
There were plenty of this type of conscript in the Soviet army in late 1943 and 1944 which were picked up by the Red Army as they swept through liberated areas, except often they didn't get a uniform either. If I recall correctly, such men were supposed to be sent to the rear for training before being used in combat, but in practice whatever army/front found them would keep them for use in their formations, with virtually no training. Partisans in such areas were treated in a simlar manner, but at least they had more military (or pseudo-military) experience.
You are right that there could be few conscripts in Bagration itself, because the front had been static for a few months and any such conscripts inducted earlier in 1944 would presumably have had time for more training, and plus the Sovs had more opportunity to send trained replacements in the first place. But in the months following Bagration I would think you'd see more rather than less conscripts for the reasons explained above.
Of course they didn't create whole units with such conscripts at this point in the war, but rather they were used as replacements in existing units, so I'm not sure how to best reflect this in CM--I would think you'd water down the overall quality so that squads with a couple of veteran/regular soldiers and the rest conscripts might be "green", etc.
when working from contour lines on a topo map, at the top of a hill, within the contour lines, I guess I should go up half a contour interval or so, so avoid flat-topped plateaus--correct?
Suggestions for setting of first Red Thunder Module?
in Combat Mission Red Thunder
Posted
Sorry, on that point I wasn't specifically replying to you, but more of a general question about whether one or two modules were anticipated for CMRT...
If only one module is expected, I would think it should cover Berlin. If there are two modules, I'd like for them to cover Berlin and Hungary, and don't care much in which order (although I'd like my Lend Lease goodies in the first module!).
Depending on the devs' appetite for including Axis/Sov minors, I'm sure there is more than enough for two modules.