Maj Soshtokovich

yet another baby being thrown out with the bathwater thread. Is it a full moon out or something this week? I just responded to two threads which indicate that CMBB was a complete failure because it doesn't have IS-3 or 251/22 models in it. Good, just who I hoped would reply. I am only doing so now since I read the new engine is being re-writen as of "recently". The point about "what is missing unit- wise" will concern only a few. Now I come into this thread and find out that this is incorrect. The game is a failure because it doesn't simulate things which are outside of its scope. What is a poor game company to do I had to laugh at that . This is what I hoped not to hear . Better ways to model perimiters and therefore placement after the first battle of amn operation is extreemly important in operation design. For me , once you get this working the game will stand alone ...

Here are a few links to keep various interets happy. :cool: 1) http://militera.lib.ru/h/stolfi/ Excellent account of the German attack on Russia. Strongy pro german perspective.The whole book on the net !!! Amazing. 2) http://www.shortway.to/1941/ Nice page on Soviet account of some operations. Includes maps. Excellent ! 3) http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/ArtReg/AR103.htm For hardcore scenario designers " historical OB's". 4) http://www.serpukhov.su/dima/war/eng/eindex.htm Nice account of major battles. Maps. Propaganda. Bookstore Sites: 4) http://www.angelraybooks.com/subject/camp2.htm#ussr http://www.aberdeenbookstore.com/eastern_front_iii.htm Various books on the Eastern Front. Interested in medals ? ( You will be after viewing this page) http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_badges/heer/heer.htm Beautiful :eek: web page of medals. Delete everything after com to get the HOME page ( new to the web hint).

CM 2 is pretty much CM 1 in a different guise with a few ( ie: limited) changes. It is NOT rebuilt from the ground up ( as engine 2 is expected to be). I just made the point just in case anybody thought that it was.... CM 2 is not a failure as a game, it just fails to capture "true combat on the Eastern Front". I do not believe better and more believable perimiters are impossible. I am just not sure how it can be done. What it will do is encompass something completely missing and both players ( particularly players)and game designers will gain immesurably. I dearly look forward to further replies on this. Thank you

I did NOT say it was a tatal failure - not do I. What I am asking is will the new engine allow some of the things I present. IF it is a representation of " fighting on the Eastern Front" then why isn't it ? Ahhhhhhhhhh why do people write about if this ( cm 2 ) is a failure then etc... or some character assasination. Please focus......

I can already anticipate the flames etc from this post. Save yourself the effort and reply to the problem ITSELF p_l_e_a_s_e. CM 2 is pretty much CM 1 in a different guise with a few ( ie: limited) changes. It is NOT rebuilt from the ground up ( as engine 2 is expected to be). As a front line simulation, it is reasonable but there has been many complaints about flag posession and whether 2 squads from side A own a flag wich has 3 AFV located there etc. More to the point the perimiters in operations are fairly random. Hands up who can anticipate a perimiter before it is drawn? I thought so. Here is my main point. If this is supose to simulate combat on the Eastern Front then one might expect to be able to fight in a manner of those times. The German philosophy on this ( which will suprise no-one in this Forum) was to gain " freedom of movement" at times paying almost total disregard for the flanks. Perimiters will HAVE TO have a top screen/ bottom screen aspect NOT a straight line. In another post I have suggested that there may be a way to have human intervention in drawing such lines. However to be a true representation of the Eastern Front it aslo needs to allow for encirclement" after all AT LEAST 50% of battles were of that nature. If this cannot be done via perimiters then it should be able to allow for reinforcements to come on the edge of mapboards and for the new perimiter to include ( when the new perimiter is drawn) this new shape. This might be for example be like an upside dowb " L". The point of this is to allow a three- axis battleground, to allow possible human intervention in drawing a new perimiter ( if this proves too difficult to program) and provide a whole new scope to the game. Please note I have the utmost respect for all personel at battlefront .. Thank you

As a Eastern Front (minor) historian the best bet would have been to USE the T 34 and put a Pz IV gun on it ( with motorised rotation). Or use the design etc etc.... I think it was Guderian and Rechenue ( commander of the 6th Army before Von Paulus)that said as much. As for winning the war. What IF German developed 4-500 Me 262's.. What also if they used nerve agent in D Day.

Hi, I would be intersted if you could sent me a copy of your existing spreatsheet and your final "non UBER" SS Btn. Thanks

Hy, Thanks for that. Yes the scenario name is a difficult one Eric

OK why not reply........... The problems are 2. 1) The German can just sit tight. ( Has good LOS's) and armour. 2)The German has "LOS friends" on the Russian attack zone(s). These are AT guns and infantry. Thus the Russian can't very well sneak up the German. The right flank attack is hard because the ATG from far down the road can hit them or IF NOT it is where the Tigers come on. Layer the Pamthers come on in the same area. The left flank is where the German AFV convoy is closest to. I played the game such that I destroyed as much these " LOS friends" as quickly as possible in a bid to get some dead ground ( from LOS) to regroup. This involved also sticking to the " objectives". Anyway, its no biggy if you won this or not Fionn my life ( or CM2 persona) won't depend on it.

Hi, Well I can only say this "good human player" is not. I have played this a number of times against the AI and it will as Steve suggests - always win. The reason is that the Germans are vet and have good optics while the Russian are well....Russian. The idea of "ganging up" on the German monsters however are what Steve suggests. I have found the best option for the Russian is the " Shoot 'n' Scoot" option. Try and get the Tigers/Panthers to rotate thier turrets and engage them in one direction then the other. It is a very hard game as the Russian.

Thanks to the person who put me in contact with CMMC. Soon to be a GM near your pathetic Russian forces

Terapin, What is your problem. I have quite a few computer friends. If Steve will send it to me I'll see what I can do ok. Thanks for your constructive reply mate ! :mad:

Hi, Please don't forget me guys . I was in 10th SS before ( it got crushed ). If any commanders from that CCM 1 rememebr a Lt Sydlitz would be great to hear from you. Thanks

Hi, Here is a second go at this topic. PROBLEM 1 : The AI is poor PROBLEM 2 : Operations are poor I know both as I not only played the game but opened the editor too . 1) There has never been an "integrated AT/ AFV defence" in any operation ( & probably battle) by the AI. Period. Given that the AI probably has much better knowledge of LOS path's why can't it figure it out? PLEASE can the AI grab a brain next time round. 2) This mainly concerns perimiters. 100% of the CG in an operation is dependent on the new perimiter. If there is only one available model ( namely a straight line) then that HAS TO BE a failure- right? In BB ( if we want to play with any accuracy at all) encirclements have to be possible. I explained in another post that this would probably be a program that a human would use to draw the perimiter by enclosing ( like Red Barricades in ASL) his areas of control. Due to the complex nature of such an undertaking ( probably unreasonable) the second bet is to use commom and easy geometric shaped ( ex: square, circle) that would be " templates" the the human would use to mark the map. This perimiter program would be an overlay ( maybe Java for example) that the AI could also understand. After the perimiter is drawn such things as no - man's land would work as per normal. An analogy would be to put your spread fingers into a cake ( representing a German concentration of force) and representing that in a true(ish) fashion. As I have designed quite a few CG's I cannot stress enough the " total wreakage" that exists from the existing " mothod??". Your comments are WELCOME.........

dang ~ can't get formatting to " save" . germnan german russian german german try this.

Yes I agree the encilclements were huge but they were also done on a small scale as well. The whole point IS that this should be represented on the map as the NEW perimiter. That is the map allows for encirclement. _____________________________________________ --------------- | | germans | Russians | | | Geermans | | _______________ ___________________________________________ This is what I mean...

Sheess I thought this was WORTH some comment.........

I just wanted to see how BB appealed to the Forum before I mention what follows. I am in the " strategy" camp and am cheering for the CAMPAIGN game to "really work". I have read all the posts and believe the AI is still the same stupid sod as in 2001 ( a game oddity ha ha). I have spoken to Steve about his before but I think it should again be considered. I think most of those like me want the possability of the full range of " battle situations"; the most problematic being encirclement. Without wishing to bore the CM Forum most German attacks were to punch through all MLR's then gain freedom of movement behind enemy lines frequently resulting in containment or encirclement. It is probably not possable for the AI to draw such perimiters but it IS possable for players to do so. What is needed therefore is some way humans can input data ( the perimiter) using perhaps 4 " templates". These would be easy mathematical shapes ( circle, oval, square, rectangle) to which maybe a JAVA tool could be installed but which the game engine would understand. Even if the perimiter were simplified as long as a non- linear one resulted this would be an improvement. [ Consider putting your fingers into a cake and drawing the resulting fingers/ cake perimiter.] If others can figure out what I am trying to say please respond. Also, Steve.......

OK folks rather than talk about it let's try and get a " fix" on this.... What you ask? Tell us ( once you figure it out) what it took to succesfully (or near enough) disengage from an enemy. In particular infantry data. Here is an example: 3 platoons of infantry in scrub fired on at 100 m by 3 Maxin MG's. Result= all pinned. Relieveing force:( Against 3 Maxin MG's) 2 half tracks ( at 200m) etc etc If anyone has any better idea on this please let me know. I believe this could become very useful/// Thanks

Ahhh, Lt Bull I now see your point. There is no BB role for disengaging though there are new roles for attacking ( Human Wave etc..). In my opinion a good point. I don't have an answer on that. As to the " method of disengaging" it is rather presumptuous to say " work it out". It will be DIFFERENT every time ( even different depending on the year quite possably: Don't have BB data to check right now). There are probably some ratio's though that could be worked out as to how to PIN the enemy so that he stops firing at your troops. This would depend on ( for HE) rate of fire and amount of total firepower Rate of fire is best illustrated by AFV mg's and the Whirlewind, also multiple mortars on the same target area. Call it the " multiplier effect". ( Set up 2 Pz IV at 200m from 2 platoons in a forrest watch how long it takes for them to rout). Total firepower is just the addition of "fire efeects" on an area in a given time this includes everything including OBA as well as possably leader ratings ( esp: command bonus). I don't have the answer to the above but a few test maps and forces ( time to use the scenario editor) and experimenting should do the job. I would welcome any good tables anyone works out on this. NB: Rememeber good morale HQ's and cover will efefct results. Good luck The Major

Not sure what the value of this program is. Prehaps someone could shed light??

Hi, If you would like to go to the Tactics section of the BB Forum I am sure you would find some extra neterial to help. ( I know since I posted it a few days ago < smug expression here>. Disengaging is one of the hardest actions of a unit/ force/ army. I suggest a look at a military handbook ( German) will help some. To save you some time : - PLAN for such an event - have a SOLUTION The main ones seem to be 1) smoke 2) more FP . In realation to "2" do not solve it on a 1-1 basis make it look like Terminator is firing into the " offending enemy" . 3 x 81mm mortars on target+ 2 mg's should be enough. Tanks with high load outs in mmg's work wonders. In essence- plan. Good luck. the Major.

Can we PLEASE have a BB section and a CM 1 section to all Forums. They are very different and things are just going to be FUBAR very soon. Mark my words gentlemen !!

Evening, I have noted quite a few posts on infantry behaviour ( we know it can be bad) in BB. Disengaging is now MUCH harder since it frequently means ALSO recovering from being pinned. I think it was in the Manual and also in a good article on this Forum that attacking cannot be done with parity with the enemy. Add to that passage " withdrawing cannot be achieved with the units that just did the attack" [ and got pinned for thier trouble}. Attacking units also get tired - esp MG's. German So what would YOU do commander? I would have smoke ( for German) making equipment close at hand ( and in LOS). You have to blind the enemy so the "little pricks" will stop firing at your units. Yes, stop firing.... So, use 81mm, AFV, OBA anything that has smoke and GTF !!! out of the [help I'm going to get] beaten zone. If possable use TRP's as " safety nets" around your attack zone. Also, face the fact that your attack method may be faulty. Set up your own small game and practice methods that suit you. Russian (as the AI) For the Russian, he will almost invariably roll up AFV and try to grind your position to dust , that is, HIS method of disengagement will be simply to crush what is in front of him failing that he will hide in the best terrain ( esp : woods, dips). Whether it is due to the game engine or lower quality troops I have noticed the Russian ( as AI) defends the flags OR holds pretty much in place. In effect he doesn't disengage. I only mention this as it is fun, alibet a bit brutal, to encircle a Russian position ( say a forrest or town) and mow them down with AFV mg's and OBA as they try and run back to thier lines. anyway, keep up the good work soldaten or commrade

All this sounds depressingly familiar... It looks like "caldren battles" still cannot be achieved. Even though you may have only been trying for one half of the circle the AI " stuffs up" the set up zones........ This is my main "bent" at CM, I really hope this is a major area for the new game engine...