ElGuapo

You see, that's the point. Teh weatehr/time of day settings were random, so I bought stuff for longer LOS engagements. I DID buy some heavy arty. 180 mm, if I remember right (it was over 150 I know.) The problem was that I had range units (two TDs, a Stuart, M8 Greyhounds). My opponent had similar stuff, A Stug, A few PZ IVs, etc, ACs, etc. But his SMG superiority and proximity to the flags made rushing in with 44 squads very pricey. All of my AFVs had to get in to 30m range to fire at anything. Thus my original comment about pulling back and waiting the game out until the very end.

This is the grog'i-est thread I have ever seen. [ 10-01-2001: Message edited by: ElGuapo ]

Aye, what a surly bunch. I'm hidden in the back there somewhere. There was lots of talk Friday night, but talk is cheap. What I want to do is lose to everyone in that picture so that next time we meet, I can say: "You all are the best bunch of CM players I have ever met", and get beers from everyone, not just Jake. I might have to try out this PBEM thing, after all. My last TCP/IP random opponent left the game after setup, leaving me to load the autosave and take on the computer. Ehhhh. The computer sucks. ElGuapo

Gamey Bastards! Hey gang, I had a great time Friday. It was fun to meet everyone. Cathedral(Sean) and I, after the long ride back to DC, ordered a pizza, cracked open a couple of beers, and settled down for a hotseat game (he forgot his CD). Game is still to be finished, as it was 3 when we quit and I was falling over tired. I admit I have lost a lot or armor so far, but he hasn't seen all my tricks yet. Anyway, thanks for the beer, Lawyer. Nice to meet everyone. Maybe we can have a LAN party sometime, or a trip up to Aberdeen. If any of you ever get into DC, beer's on me at a local pub. ElGuapo P.S. No Alpha Male syndrome here. He he. I can take my defeats as well as the next guy, I just need to actually be beat first.

*sigh* I'm gonna have to spank you next game for that, my friend. Build your rig already so I can look over the bodies of your troops and see that wonderful "Eliminated" by their name.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herr Oberst: I've been eyeballing a trip up to peruse the heavy metal all summer...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Cathedral" and I went up there several months ago and it was one of the most impressive WWII related things I have ever seen. You would not believe what they have up there. If you can name it on either side, they probably have it. Everything from arty, towed guns, tanks, AT guns, small arms, machine guns, AT squad weapons, munitions, ammunition, SPA, HTs, EVERYTHING! Just take the selection list from a CM QB menu, print it out, and check it off. Another great thing is that they have tons of Russian stuff (which I am not all that familiar with yet), so when CMBB comes out, I can discover it all over again. Looking at some of the marks from rounds that bounced off the front 250 mm armor of the JadgTiger, running your fingers over the armor, looking through the hole made by a AP or Tungsten round that went completely through a Marder II in person up there is just incredible. Anyway, I think Cath and I will both be there tonight. See you there! (Not sure if I am bringing my laptop, but I think at this point not). Guap

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: And matter of fact, I have. I would class US 76mm breaking up as a dud. Was in the beta.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Right. I remember specifically replaying a bit of a turn where a shell broke up into 5 different pieces off the turret of a King Tiger. It was entirely too pretty and looked like it could have shredded nearby troops. Little details like that keep popping up and making sure this game will never leave my HD.

Played a QB last night in the above conditions. I've never played with such horrible LOS before (it was a random setting), and made some mistakes. Most notably, I was America with 44 squads, long range TDs, and a few support vehicles. My opponent had, of course, German inf and vehicles, including a SMG platoon, a Security squad, and some rifle platoons. I lost this engagement, so obviously I did something wrong. Let me analyze myself before the rabid packs jump in. I started by running my platoons into hiding positions behind hills and into buildings just shy of the VLs. I had the armor in a column with two scout vehicles to prevent flanking. I think this strategy, however, was more suited to a better LOS condition. You would not BELIEVE how bad LOS was. 30m at best, which meant when I tried to destroy buildings with HE from armor, they were 30m away from Shreks, with appreciable results. All my armor was taken out by close assult infantry early because I closed with my armor. I saw no way around this at the time, as I needed to get those squads out of the buildings and could not see rushing SMG squads with rifle squads. Also, the 44 squads were worthless, becasue they could not engage at distance, thus had to close with the more powerful German squads and were summarily chewed up at ranges of 20-40m. Rethinking it, I would have done the same deployment, but sat tight the ENTIRE game and moved my armor way out into the open where no troops were at and let it sit there. Then I would have simply waited until the last few turns and rushed in, hoping the AI would give me the win with overwhelming assets on top of the VLs. What else can be done in split pea soup at night? Anyone else have a suggestion? The obvious one is to play the Germans with SMG squads, but other than this, what can be done as Allies when you have units best suited to longer LOS fighting? Curious, Guap

Yeah, it would be great if they released a patch to upgrade CMBO withg the CMBB engine, but that will be a cold day in hell, and rightly so. Can you imagine any other game doing this? For example, remember the old classic Dune II? After a few years, the same company released a better version called Command and Conquer in a whole new setting. Fans of the original wanted to see their old game with the new, snazzy graphics and improved interface. It happened, but years later under totally new code, under a new project team and new developers. Think of CMBB as a whole new game in the series (which it is), not just CMBO 2 with some slight mods to the engine. Maybe I'm over-simplifiying the situation here since I have no idea what the development environment is like at Battlefront (is that the publisher or the developer, or both?), but I'm looking forward to the next game in the series. I guess the question is, did you ever go back and play the older game in a series when the next in line came out? I think the interface of CMBO is so stellar that it will hold up for a bit, plus there may be units/countries we cannot play in CMBB. I'm just glad to see CMBO was profitable enough that this company could produce a sequel.

A friend of mine and I always used to have a running joke about mis-identification. Seeing as the JadgTiger is probably the most overpriced, expensive, and therefore most unused German tank (but still you have to fear that 120 mm gun and 250 mm frontal armor), we would always say "see my JadgTiger yet?" when the other guy id'd a Tiger?. One time in a big battle, I heard this enormous cannon coming from the far eastern side of the map. He kept joking about his JadgTiger, me ignoring it. Of course, it turned out he HAD bought Jadg, and I mis-id'd it the whole game. The sound, however, made me wonder. It took him the entire game to CRAWL that thing over to the battle, proving how worthless that AFV is. I'm sure he bought it just to take advantage of the running joke.

Here is the situation: 1 or more squads are near an enemy tank. They are completely out of AT icons (no fausts, rifle grenades, etc.). They are all there is between victory and defeat, as there are no other AFV or AT capabilities, even arty, available. The question is: does this type of infantry have any chance of killing a well-armored tank? I have been in situations where I sent 3 full American Rifle 44 squads up behind a Tiger (from a woods), only to have them driven off in subsequent rounds. I watched all three full squads get chewed up as the tank turned to face them, then they broke and fled. Is there any way for "unarmed" squads to take out a tank, or should they just run and hide, the highlander way? Does it depend on the tank, and if so, how? Open topped suseptible and closed topped not? (P.S. Obviously this exempts HT and other light armor, as it CAN be taken out by BARs, grenades and such).

I too made the chess analogy, for the reason that I have played a bit of chess and see the similarities. However, what I failed to mention in my post is are the extreme differences between a pure strategy game and CM. For instance, in chess you have the same setup and board EVERY single time. So much so that any opening you make, no matter what it is, probably has a at one or two names for it. In CM, however, things are infinately more complicated. So goes the entire game, as there is ABSOLUTELY no luck in chess. The only luck there is in chess is when your opponent makes mistakes. Two Big Blues who play each other face to face should draw every time under ideal coniditions, or at least have a 1:1 win/lose ratio. In CM it is much more complicated, which is why programming AI for CM is about 1000 times more difficult than programming a chess AI. There are far more variables ot worry about, both for humans and the AI. I'd also agree that it depends on if you are playing purely "gamey", or trying for historical accuracy. That is one thing that I really enjoy about the game. All things being equal, I feel I could plug in the terrain, troop types and numbers, and vehicles for a real battle, and CM would give me a very accurate model as to how the real went, or would have goen had a few key decisions been made. You must admit this aspect of teh game is extremely well thought out, researched, and is impressive. Guap

I've won some, I've lost some, but I've always learned from my experiences, so I'll give this topic a shot. First of all, I will relate this to CM only, as a discussion of why battles are won and lost in real combat is way outside the scope of this argument. Given CM is a great game, given it is as realistic as possible given TacAI calculations, stat modelling, etc. Given all that, and the fact that it is the best tactical wargame out in the market today (IMHO), I think the thing to keep in mind is that it is still a GAME. So in the end, there will be some people that play the GAME of CM better than others. I've read a ton of comments, threads, attacks, AARs, and such describing tactics and theories. I, like many others, have played those new to the game and those who have been playing forever. This game is at once similar to and completely different than any other "strategy" game, such as chess. It is similar because a better player, given the same map, same units, etc., every time will almost always beat a worse player. Yes, you have chance shots like a Stuart taking out a Tiger with one shot to the front turret, but over the long run these things even out. So following this line of (il)logic, I think the question becomes ... what makes a good player? Certainly there is a lot of randomness in this game, a lot of chance. I think a lot of being a good player is dealing with this chance. But it also has to do with knowing the game, the units, and the combined arms tactics to win the game. As has been mentioned before, I think one key is in the setup and planning of your tactics. Assuming you are playing a QB, I know all of the good players I have faced take a long time in the beginning, analyzing the terrain, lines of fire, cover, etc. They decide whether this particular map requires a swift attack in a certain area, holding back armor assets, taking a certain hill, taking a side of a village, or advancing down a valley. Whatever the action, good players are flexible in their overall strategy as well as nity gritty tactics. On the scale of CM, if the original plan goes badly (for instance, you thought your opponent would bring tanks up a certain part of the map, but he came another direction, flanking your column), a good player will adapt. But if the plan and setup was bad, there is a great chance you will lose the battle. It's very complicated, but I'm to the point now where I'm planned out in the beginning, but have contingency plans and try to remain flexible if I encounter something unexpected. Using troops and weapons for what they are meant for is also big. All in all I've noticed that tactics change depending on maps, terrain, location of victory flags, etc. It's all about understanding what gives you those number at the end and maximizing them. Maximing expensive enemy losses as well as flag rushing near the end of the battle and holding the flag are the two key factors. Guap

I'm looking forward to this little gathering of self-righteous CM bastards. If this goes well, we should all go up to Aberdeen some day and visit the tank park. Though I'm not going to get a free beer, because I've never played ya, Lawyer, and I don't heap praise on those I haven't played. Maybe I'll bring my laptop with CM and we can bet a beer on the results of a 500 pt QB.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Agua Perdido: How nice for you. We must all face our own "El Guapo." Ours is the real "El Guapo." Now sound off like ya got a pair or sod off! Preferably the latter. Agua Perdido<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ----------------------- Agua, would you say I have a PLETHORA of 88 shells here? Maybe tonight when I get through with the saucy brit who started this version of the rabble rousers thread, I will have time to slap a pair in the face of your platoons. Sr. Aitken, we shall conclude our year long battle tonight. I see an invincible Tiger in your future.

I use crews in mad end game dashes to capture victory flags.

Ok, I've been away from the game for too long, but now I'm back in fighting shape. I'm looking for a rematch against someone here, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was that I fought. So what I will do is describe the battle and if you recognize this fight, contact me here. ========================= It was about a 3000 pt ME QB, I think. I was Germany, you were America. We randomly chose experience and I got stuck with a bunch of Green troops. I had a Tiger and a King Tiger overlooking a hill, and a few Hetzers and a JadgPanther on the other side, down a valley a little bit. You bunched your forces up into a big armored column and moved down a road, then offroad towards to Flags. Highlights of the battle included my King Tiger in very close combat with your troops as it was coming down a hill, me getting my Panthers over on the other side of the valley gun damaged (but you not knowing this), and pulling back until the end of the battle. We fought a great battle back and forth, with much carnage inflicted by you in the beginning, but I came back and knocked out almost all of your tanks. The endgame was over the flags as you had troops sitting on top of them and a 105 I think guarding. I brought the KT in and kept feinting into the woods onyl to pull it out again for fear of it being knocked out. I think it ended in a draw. ======= I THINK we had a rematch where you attacked and I defended, and you crushed my guns with arty in the beginning, but I held the flag on one of my flanks with a pupchen and a bunch of hidden troops in a woods behind it. I think you won that one. ==================== If this is you, let me know.

=========== Snip a very long message by Seanachai, resembling a Joyceian epic of very creative imagined self-humiliation by his opponent. =========== Are all admitals of defeat as long as the expose written here? What a hilarious read. Methinks I need to get back into the swing of things and take on someone TCP/IP tonight. They can then write their own epic admittal of defeat tommorrow morn on the longest of threads.

Played a QB Probe against the German AI last night and had a wonderful experience I had to watch over and over again on the movie. I was moving inf and armor up to position in back of a woods. Now, given, a lot of this is my fault in not more accurately calculating the timing of the various vehicles speeds. I had a Priest on the left crossing over to the right, and a Wolverine on the right crossing over to the left. In between them were two infantry squads, slightly ahead, going to clear the woods. You can probably see what's coming next. A 105 inf gun (IDed later) starts lobbing shelling in its nasty slow arc at the AFVs. The LAST 5 seconds of the turn, a shell hits right on the middle of everything, destroying BOTH AFVs, killing 2 men, and making both squads dive for the dirt. What an awesome explosion, but it pretty much cost me the game (I fought to a draw). Anyone else have a great replay experience lately?

==================================== ElGuapo, there is life outside the beltway... ==================================== I know. I've heard of this mythical "Suburbia" land in my storybooks. Apparently the rail doesn't go there, so you need a Kubelwagon or a Puma to get there. I've heard there is some nice stuff out there. I've ever been to a museum several hours to the north to see a JadgTiger, and we couldn't take the Metro there! Preposterous! I'll try to make it Friday. Ok, so I come out of the Metro and go north on which road? Which side of the street is it on? ElGuapo

OK, I'm an idiot. You can move this thread to General Forum.

Ack, is there any way we can move it into Metro-able DC? A know 2 CM players who live in Georgetown and Cap Hill respectively who would love to be there. ElGuapo

Is no one discussing this series here? Did I miss it? If you want to get inspired to play CM, I would highly recommend those with HBO to catch Band of Brothers, based on S. Ambrose's book of the same name. It is running on HBO right now and is as faithful to the book as I have ever seen a movie. Part 4 of 10 was on last night and was an incredible battle of the 101st Airborne during OP Marget-Garden. Unlike movies such as like Patton, Battle of the Bulge, et. al. they are actually trying to make the tanks look and feel like their historical counterparts. I was amazed to be able to distinguish Marder IIs as opposed to Tigers, Stug IIIs, British Sherman IIs, and Cromwells, and many other vehicles. I caught a 20mm halftrack with the open hatch top and another german halftrack with the 75 mm gun (though it seemed longer than the "snub nosed" version depicted in CM. Also, infantry tactics are a major part of the series, with airborne taking on Fallsmjager (sp?) in one scene. The realism of the combat even seems accurate, as AT round from a bazooka bounce off the front of the sloped armor of SP german guns, but the 88 of a Tiger rips through a British armor column of Shermans. The whole series is done in the shaky, hand-camera, gritty style of Saving Private Ryan, with Speilberg and Hanks attaching their name to yet another WWII drama. I have meant to read the book for a long time to improve my CM game, but now I am finally finished with it and the way the miniseries is true to form to the book is amazing. When this 10 episode mini series is finished, I think it will be the DEFINATIVE work on WWII small arms and infantry vs. armored combat. It's just fantastic. ElGuapo

I have been searching through the questions/answers/FAQs .... and have not found this one. Maybe it is there, but I thought I would ask anyway.... Most of us like to make maps. Our custom maps are usually more interesting than the random maps generated in a QB (though the map generator is the best I have ever seen - in any game). But what I would like, as well of lots of other fans I have talked to, is the ability to use our maps in a QB. That is, use our map as a simple drop down selection (Random vs. User map). I don't see how this would be too hard to program, since apparently right now map info is stored seperately from unit info. But maybe I am wrong. Could this feature be included in CM2? Also, it would be nice to be able to select any unit experience at any point, rather than be "limited" to either Con/Green, Reg/Vet, or Crack/Elite. Historically you would have green units mixed with vets. Just two small interface/tweaks to the QB that I think would add a lot of value and features to the game. ElGuapo

I didn't know that. Yep, let's go now. To battle! My ICQ and email should be in my profile.