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Ooooh, oooh, here's one: a simple wounded soldier representing the WIA, but a small victory flag sprouts from his location. Now you can fight over him? Ken

Steve, You forgot to list item number 8: the defensive benefit of carrying a WIA in a fireman's carry across your shoulders - the WIA will absorb all small arm's fire which would've hit the back of your head, neck, and torso. Ken

Gents, Well, straight-through penetration seems to be easily modeled. (This is where the various penetration grogs will jump all over me. ) Slopes, hardnesses, thicknesses, etc., are all known. How much shell deformation occurs after the initial penetration would be the biggest unknown factor. Residual velocity, hence energy, could be calculated. Reduce it for going through such things as sights, radios, the gunner, etc., and you'll have the velocity with which it strikes the inner face of the opposite armor. Ken

And I thought this thread would have some legs. I just didn't think there'd be 8(?) pairs of them and they'd be red and covered in shell. Ken

Ditto: I've petitioned... Well, whined a lot anyway about including internal systems in the penetration model. Include kinematics and resistance of various systems. Example: Shell penetrates turret side and has 100 units of energy left after penetration. That turret side had the tank radio mounted there. It is destroyed with 10 units of energy. The shell has 90 units left. Continue tracking the shell until it exits the vehicle or is unable to create further damage. The vehicle, if it survives with crew, will lose any systems damaged/destroyed by the shell. Ken

In order of preference: Soldier in different pose Hairy Ballerina Soulless Icon Thanks, Ken

Shell cam? Are you crazy?!? Do you know how fast those things rotate? I can imagine all the induced motion sickness that kind of feature would produce. Ken

Gents, Any idea utilizing movement of WIA opens a host of problems. Who decides to move them? Where are they moved towards, if, indeed, it's been decided to move them? How are they moved? How many men will assist per wounded: 1, 2, 3, 4? What if the wounded man volunteers to man the position to allow his comrades to escape, then, gasping his last breath, pulls the pin on the grenade as the enemy rushes his position? Will there be differing WIA treatment depending on the exact nature of the wound? For these, and all the other ideas I haven't thought of, it seems that BF.C's desire not to allow WIA to move would seem the most rational approach. For now. Ken

Gents, I'm fine with an approach of "drop the WIA where they fall", with a visual depiction of a WIA soldier. I think a thoughtful approach to WIA will lead to a better game engine. The example someone here posted of Task Force Ranger (of "Black Hawk Down" fame) being immobilized due to the number of casualties was quite interesting. It was an elite light infantry force whose tactical abilities were significantly affected by WIA concerns. Whereas I'd hate for CMx2 to be significantly delayed for WIA development, I'd hope that BF.C starts to wrestle with some solutions. In the meantime, for whatever it's worth, I'm fine with the WIA/KIA split being determined at the end of the battle. Regards, Ken

GaJ, Well done! Mutable it is! We NEED mutable terrain. (As well as deformable terrain.) Ken

Michael, Great. After your forensic wound tracking post,with no smilies, I make a post...which you follow up with a funny one: with a friggin' smilie! I would submit that being shot in the legs would affect your ability as a soldier. Therefore, it's a Serious Wound . Hence, your leg-shot soldier is a WIA. (But, note how my WIA representation by legless torsos dragging themselves off-board would fit PERFECTLY with leg wounds. ) Ken

Guys, In all seriousness, I disagree with the Doroshian viewpoint. (I usually put smilies or an unmistakably funny comment into posts when I'm not serious. Therefore, I assume Michael Dorosh's post _was_ serious: to a degree.) CMx2 could be an even better game, depending on how WIA are treated. I, personally, do not want to play doctor. I would rather be crushing my enemy beneath the treads of my tank! Gpig, and others, have agreed with my view that the lightly wounded simply don't matter. Of course, we don't know how BF.C will feel. [shrug] I'm fine with WIA, by game definition the seriously wounded, just laying on the ground. If there will be a gameplay difference between WIA and KIA, then make a visual difference between KIA and WIA. (Add in some blood puddles, or any other eye-candy you want.) Just don't make it some sort of icon. That would destroy the immersion factor. I agree with Steve that WIA should be able to change state to KIA. I would base it on additional wounds rather than some sort of changed medical condition. I don't want any player control of the WIA unit. If WIA need to be evacuated for points, then the player should be able to move the WIA. To me that is the biggest problem: how are WIA moved. Thanks, Ken

Steve, Following up on the idea of moving WIA... Will units have a number of portage "slots"? Weapons, ammo - of various types, etc., will take up the slots. The more slots taken up, the more inertia the unit has. Carrying capacity, both weight and bulk, would need to be determined for various units. The obverse, the weight and bulk of various units, would also have to be calculated. This would, of course, make the introduction of animals much easier in later modules. Mules, donkeys, camels, elephants, horses, dogs, red dragons, space lobsters, all have a certain capacity. Once you allow non-mechanical units the ability to carry items, the whole world of simulations opens up. Could an HMG team drop it's out-of-ammo, melted-barrel, receiver-stuffed-with-muck MG-42 and be used as ersatz medics? How many space marines can ride on the back of a space lobster? If you go down this road, WIA treatment could be easier. Ken

Steve, The separation of morale state and suppression is great. The target memory (objective permanence? sheesh...) is, IMHO, even better. I think it (target memory) may be the single best advance between CMx1 and CMx2. But, do Space Lobsters even _have_ memories? Thanks, Ken

Steve, Hmmm, in an earlier WIA/KIA thread, I posted that I'd like to stack WIA/KIA in front of my positions to absorb enemy firepower. That (mostly) tongue-in-cheek suggestion was ignored. KIA treatment seems simple: have an immobile "dead guy" unit (one of several poses? No rag-doll physics needed - that will be requested in CMx3 ) WIA seems to be split into two categories: Lightly Wounded and Seriously Wounded. Lightly Wounded seems to be a trivial case. If the wound doesn't hamper operational effectiveness during the period of the scenario, it doesn't matter. Ignore it. Seriously Wounded is the crux of all the issues (it seems to me). A Serious Wound would take a soldier out of the fight (argue about degree of ability later). I don't think the majority of players want a Medic Sim. How then do you treat a Serious Wound ? Different algorithms for different situations? On a successful advance leave them where they fall and let the follow-on forces deal with them; on a retreat, detail members of the squad to carry them back? I think that type of treatment would be far too complex. If you leave them where they've been wounded and represent them with one of several poses, that would get the idea across. It doesn't have to be the same as the "dead guy" unit. It could be a sitting posture, with a plasma bag dripping from a rifle. Or, lying on the ground with a red cross on his chest. Something clearly visible. Each WIA figure could be worth beaucoup victory points. That would make it part of the tactical puzzle whether you save/protect/withdrew/capture them. Make WIA targetable. Moving WIA sounds difficult, unless the entire idea of portaging support weapons and units is enabled for CMx2. (I'm using the PP system from ASL here.) Are you thinking about allowing that? Now, if you use my skeleton idea, I'll gladly send you that extra $10... Ken Edited because the differint forms of "to", "too", and "two" can confuse all of us.

Hey, JeffSmith - excellent idea! In fact, we must'be cross-posted; check two posts up... Ken

A self-aggrandizing [bump] Edited because certain symbols don't appear...

Steve, Thanks. (Although, I do think that my idea for skeletons is cooler. ) One quick thought: a cross to represent WIA may be confused with a cross which was used to mark a soldier's grave. Or, are you saying a red cross? Oh, my crawling torso post was, indeed, an oblique reference to all the differing requests you'll get once WIA are represented 1:1, without consideration of the various gameplay issues that would bring up. Why not a simple abstraction: all WIA which are not seriously wounded are not counted. The squad stays at full strength. All seriously wounded are treated the same as KIA; immobile, out of the player's control. The benefit to treating seriously WIA and KIA the same would be the ability to glance at the battlefield and find the kill zones. (That doesn't speak well of my tactical skills!) Thanks, Ken

Yes.

FFE, What if the knocked out tank has 20 kill rings? Would that give enough of a clue to the quality of the troops? (Hmmm, or were they fake kill rings?) (Or, were they uber-crack troops, using a fake set of kill rings so you'd think they were conscripts with fake kill rings?) (Or, ...nevermind) Kidding aside, like you, I enjoy extreme fog of war. The less I know, the better. Ken

Guys, Did anyone else pick up the mention in one of these threads about CMx2 units having "memory" of targets which have gone out of LOS? (See, this is where one of you multi-thousand posters should post a LINK to the thread. With my meager post-count of ~400, I have no idea how to do that.) Now, let's discuss how GOOD this inclusion is. Steve - thanks. Regards, Ken

Oooooh, Steve, that sounds VERY nice... Thanks, Ken

Gents (and BF.C), As the subject suggests, there is a NEED for CMx2 to include deformable terrain. Here are just a few examples and reasons, off the top of my head. (Remember, this does not have to be WW2 specific.) Fields of corn or sunflowers should have swathes leveled by sustained small-arms fire: this would reduce the concealment afforded by these avenues. Wooden structures should produce wounding splinters when penetratrated. Trees should fall, creating movement obstacles. Tanks should plow wet fields into morasses. Heavy artillery should produce terrain effects similar to Flanders. I'm sure others will come up with better examples, however, these show that the interaction of weapons and units with the environment needs to be modelled. If a better portrayel of cover, concealment, weapons' penetration and kinematics is part of CMx2, then terrain (natural and man-made) needs to be portrayed with a higher fidelity. Thank you, Ken

Gents, You're all not trying to push the boundaries of what's possible: CMx2 is going to be all new. Therefore, the following WIA/KIA representations should be used. KIA's should gradually "melt" into the ground, blending smoothly, leaving behind a skeleton. (Additional coolness would be possible by having the skeleton pointing at the unit which killed it.) WIA's should be out of the players' control. They'd be represented by crawling torsos (no legs - this would make it obvious, at a glance, as to what that soldier's status is). Of course, these torsos would be crawling towards the nearest friendly edge. Obviously, crawling torsos would leave blood trails behind them, originating at the point of wounding in a large blood splash. Regards, Ken

Yeah, that's right: EXHAUST. I want to see the different colors of exhaust based on fuel and temperature. I want columns of diesels chugging up a hill to create a plume I can target from miles away! But, the BEST reason to include exhaust is to simulate my tanks pivoting on top of foxholes and trenches, crushing the walls, filling them with dirt, burying the defenders alive, AND POISONING THEM WITH FUMES!! CAN YOU SMELL WHAT'S COOKING?!?!? Obviously, this would be easy to implement. BF.C please get on it... Thanks, Ken