markshot

My initial orders. These are analogous to give orders in CM during Turn #1 from the setup zone. BUT THE KEY DIFFERENCE HERE IS THAT THERE ARE COMMAND PENALTIES, AND ORDERS LIKE FIRE MISSIONS ARE RELATIVELY FREE WHEN GIVEN LIKE THIS. This only show movements. There are other static roles which we discussed already. In these first two, you see me pulling my repair crews and truck back as far away from danger as possible. In the third, this infantry is order to hustle over to Trushinko and find cover in buildings, and prepare to defend. In the fourth, this is the order for the armor/mech force to do the end run to the cross roads. I try for a gentle curve as I want to avoid chaos an exposure of flanks. (Agreed, there might have been a recon problem in front.)

I think it may be worth some points, but they are minor to holding/taking keypoints.

This is the deployment. Analogous to CM setup zones. (Note: Blue is the Red Army setup zone.) Right flank: I have some infantry in Shilovo that were dropped there. They cannot be moved until later. This simulated that these guys were on the move when the battle jumped off. I will shift these guys as soon as the game starts to defend Trushinko (using buildings as cover) in the town. Center: The town of Trushinko. Here you see to main defenses. All are dug in (you get to this if you are not on the move). On the right, we have infantry guns covering the wide open approach out of woods and built up areas. In front of the guns, we have infantry to provide close combat support for the guns. Around Trushinko itself, we have infantry dug in around the perimeter. Left flank: Armor and mechanized infantry which will swing around the woods and go after the crossroads. Center (again): The blue bars show my TRPs. The idea is that if the assault numbers are that great, then fast accurate arty will stop them at close range, before the are able to take the trenches.

Again we fight around Shilovo. However, the enemy will be trying to Trushinko which leads to Shilovo and that all important bridge. We (Wehrmacht) will try to hold Trushinko and capture a key road cross road. Shilovo although fighting may take place in it cannot change hands (it is in mine). Why? There are three battle scope levels you can set. Unlimited, Medium, Limited ... Unlimited the entire grid is in play. Medium some parts of the grid are locked in terms of ownership. Thus, they are not worth fighting for, but they may be worth maneuvering in or offer key terrain for the battle. Why? This is done to avoid humongous battles as the largest ops challenge even today's fastest machines for a good FPS.

Well now, my presentation will obviously be less dynamic; just screen shots. One of the most confusing about the GTOS/GTMF/TWT-43 are battle outcomes. I just fought a battle which if you watched it; view AAR numbers; and looked at the results on the campaign map, they all seem to say victory. But it is a TOTAL DEFEAT. Note that I am winning the op 8 of 13 turns played 349:124 points. I think GTMF battle is bit like the movement of stock prices. Well, you much watch a stock and see that management announces a dividend inline with prior dividends and earning are also inline. So, you would think the stock price will climb. Good news, right? Wrong. The market has already factored that news into the current trading price. Thus, management needs to announce a dividend or earning that beats expectations (and the "whisper number" what everyone expects) to get an uptick. So, in terms of GTMF, I think if you have superior force, supply, and terrain, that you may produce good numbers, but not impress the game engine. Whereas the underdog who wins big that is TOTAL VICTORY. In any case, capturing and holding key objectives on the map turn after turn is main factor which wins campaigns.

I plan to have lots of screenshots later. To answer some concerns: (1) Are you fighting/wargaming or just spectating? (2) What does one do when regarding a battle? (3) Can one enjoy the visuals or are you too busy clicking? (4) What level information can you get from the game? NOTE: The UI/instruction is lacking. But then "real men" don't need a manual to play a wargame. And this is true. I couldn't figure out GTOS; so, I quit. A friend here, Harry, has GTOS, he just watched and told me what was going on. He is much more of a wargamer than me. I would class myself as just average. But still, I am having a good time. I am in the midst of a major battle, and my first armor battle. I have been pausing (removing UI) to get you some really impressive shots. This is even though I have turned down the graphics so that I can maintain a high FPS.

When the building you are hiding behind is demolished by 152mm round from an SPG. (CMRT)

One more ...

This was right before the above. You see the stats, Shilovo, the Voronezh Bridge. The armor is coming up.

Well, I have continued with CMx2 training. I am not a noob, but I think the missions are good for me. I completed CMBN, CMFI, CMRT, and have CMFB to do. Yes, I am playing them in order of release. (Also, I have been playing Alea Jacta Est the classical wars of Rome. This is not a sandbox game like TW & PD games.) But I am here to talk about GTMF as I have gotten more time with it. I playing Shilovo as the Germans in 42. The op has I think 13 turns. The terrain is wooded, open, and village ... flat and rolling. The forces vary between all infantry, motorized, and armor. The style of play is very different from CM which is both good and bad. Did anyone ever play Panther Games? I was a team member. I you played that one, then you will know there were no turns. But order delays and time made it very different than many operational games. How so? Well, things don't have a beginning and an end. Yes, strictly speaking an order is given and it with be carried out until termination. But you quickly learn that the wait for termination is often counter-productive. Why? Suppose you order an attack. I see my attack has succeeded and broken through. I could wait for the conclusion which involve exploiting beyond the objective, regrouping, and finally securing. That will take 4 hours of simulated time. Then, I may have another order like to take up a defensive position. So, 6-8 hours could go by before the force gets to that defensive position. If the enemy gets there during that time soon, he could deploy heavy weapons and dig-in. So, you see my point. You want to detect the changing state on the ground and react as soon as it is reasonable to do so. This was the heart of PG's system. Now, GTOS/GTMF are not exactly like that. The order delays are not nearly as "painful" in PG full realism was called "painfully realistic". The delays exist more to discourage micro-management than to simulate the famous OODA loop. But it is still very much about detecting/sensing transitions; rather than being like a city builder where one step is completed before another ... and all is meticulously done in space and time. You will have some critical units which you will want to micro-manage. The best example I can think is an FO and TRPs. We are talking controlling 3-6 men, but very important. However, in general, you may not even command platoons (which can be commanded as squads), but at the start of a battle combine platoons into forces. The force will then get missions like: clear the woods, deploy in the tree line across from the town to keep enemy occupied, another larger force may be using smoke to make a frontal assault, etc... The orders you give will take care of lines, spacing, close to contact, close to close combat, close to grenade range, bound, run, find cover, ... Go mounted or dismounted in support of ... So, I am defending this town as the Germans on hill over looking a river; in particular a bridge which is the only crossing point for armor. I will have armor up in about 12 hours. I have already taken the town and bridge in a prior battle. I know the Red Army (intel) will be coming across the bridge and mainly hitting one side of the town. This is suggested, but not guaranteed, in fact, I am very fearful of the woods on the other side since they get close enough to fix bayonets before they are spotted. I place most troops in buildings mainly on the side overlooking the river. I set up some TRPs at the bridge choke point. I set up my very limited ATG resource on a center of the river island which the bridge crosses hoping to catch armor in a cross fire; turn them into a natural road block. But my real armor plan is to retreat. I don't have as much as a stick of chewing gum to try to get a T-34 to throw a track. The battle begins and there is a very heavy preplanned barrage by Soviets of one end of the town. There are many wounded and KIA. Besides the heavy losses, this concerns me as it not directly across from the bridge. I am wondering if I can trust my Intel. The Red Army has been known to give their officers false plans until the last minute to foil interrogations. But the intel turns out to be correct when they come. My TRPs are spot on, but enemy comes well strung out preventing an easy massacre; they will rally after crossing. My other main problem is that I have great TRPs, but only a few minutes are arty for a two hour battle. I will draw blood, but by no means will this break their attack. The Red Army takes the bridge in the first 30 minutes. This does not bother me. The town, Shilovo, is everything. The bridge is one of those objectives that is easily traded ... there are no blowing bridges in this game. From the river up the town is a steep slope with little natural cover. However, there are enough shell holes and some former positions that fire and maneuver is quite feasible. It was said, "How can enjoy the beauty of an RTS?". Well, I spend most of 60 minutes watching the USSR work their way further and further up the slop and closer to the town. So, this is no movie. This is tense live drama. If they manage to reach buildings and get a toe hold, the whole nature of the fight will change. Breaking their grip on the town will require many more lives than gunning down Russians climbing the slope. So, each little group of Russians is a drama. A few drop to lay down fire, and couple of others race forward. Yes, we are in a much better position. But every now and then, a bullet finds one of my men, and I hear "Sheise, Ich bin getroffen." It has been 60 minutes, the volume of Red troops is starting to wane, and they don't seem to be able to make any closer to the streets than 50M. Occasionally, a single courageous Russian dashes the final distance, but so far, they have all been gun down before finding an empty building. Having watched this drama, I am pretty sure this is the main (only) attack. I now shift the rest of my troops to this flank as I see the Soviets have lost their momentum. It will take far less now to break the attack. There are no more green flares sending new platoons our way. If anything, I am expecting orange smoke, and the attack to be recalled. But the Soviet command treat their men as dogs; they may just die here. It has now been 90 minutes, there is no new activity down by the bridge. If there are reserves, they are not going to be thrown into this attack. Yet, there are many Russians holding on tenaciously. No doubt, they would rather face German bullets to Bolshevik bullets. I order a general attack down the slope to a shell marked area of my TRP. It is time to push the Russian off my position, and guarantee the bridge will be ready for armor when it arrives. The first few Germans bursting out the town don't elicit a response, but as their numbers swell, the Soviets either lay down their weapons or turn tail and try to beat my men to the bridge. The ones on the slope won't make it, but the ones at the rally point may fight another day. This battle was full of graphic drama. I think if you are playing this game right, there is plenty of time to appreciate the full glory of the graphics. Of course, you will always miss something ... but it is the nature of things. Also, with experience, you soon realize where to bring the camera. Events tell you where and when an arty strike is starting or new enemy has been spotted or heavy fire is being taken. --- I originally said this style is better and worse. You can play in broad strokes. The AI handles little details like smoke or calling in mortar strikes. On the other hand, you know with the ability to control 5 men units, positions would fall easier and casualties would be lower. What you lose in control, you gain back in the campaign game. You feel more attached to your men in CM; because I ordered them across that street ... they died on my direct orders. However, on the other hand, I feel more attached to the Town of Shilovo. German blood is splattered on the buildings. We have repelled 3 attacks already. Nothing tells me probe, attack, assault, meeting engagement ... I have to decide will I risk Shilovo if I detach a platoon to go for the bridge. Will Battalion say I was reckless or demonstrated initiative so that the tanks are not held up? This operation is not just an exercise in moving shells, men, and armor. It is a test of German martial skills. Can German commanders read the battles? Take ground when needed? Hold when needed? Preserve troops for tomorrows push as opposed to squander them and hide behind some notion of maintaining German honor. For many, the war will be over in hours or minutes, but for our nation and army, we fight the long fight. I hope this has helped you to get sense of GTOS/GTMF (NOTE: GTOS is the precursor. The later is the better game, but the former is well worth it if you are running older hardware.) PS: This is not an inducement to give up CM. I have the battle of Trushinko waiting for me, but tonight is CM time. I am enjoying the best games on the market for WWII tactical combat. It is a wonderful time to be a gamer.

I had seen that German training film about knocking out tanks on the Graviteam forums ... play GTMF/GTOS if you want to face a Soviet Monster with your pathetic little handmade bundle of grenades hoping that you might knock off a track. That German film seemed to have one point, "you can survive", which is important for any soldier to believe. The best part is in the middle of a Red Army attack, the whole war disappears. A single T-34 which until a minute ago was averaging 20mph, now slows to 3mph right next to your camouflaged foxhole. It passes by you. You arise. There are no soldiers of the Red Army to gun you down. There are no members of the the T-34's platoon to hose it down with MG fire. You have just entered "The T-34 Zone". The light dims and Rod Serling arises from the next foxhole.

Aren't the tanks on the same radio net as the company/battalion HQ? Would it not be sporting of him to tell them of the presence of enemy tanks? (Perhaps I am assuming too much since the Red Army didn't even think they needed radios.) Yes, I remember CMx1 debates regarding if your turret armor is weaker than your hull armor or your turret is a shot trap would it be wisest to just expose the whole tank rather giving them the most vulnerable target. PS: 3am here. I will read above links tomorrow.

Thanks for the tips. I had done a search for "hull down" a few weeks ago, I saw something about it had been tweaked, since your main gun is not at ground level and the target's turret isn't either. (I didn't try it in the scenario ... I just meant in general. Before v4, there was just gridded terrain and noticing where the target command transition and a little "Kentucky windage". One thing I really like with X2 is to be able to check LOS from any two points the battlefield. As there are times, when just a few meters can get you killed.

Oh, why didn't you upgrade to v4? Are the issues bigger than the improvements? (I still don't understand how to use HULL DOWN. I tried it one day, and expected my tanks to stop. Instead they raced forward to get shot at point blank range.)

My personal theory is that engine/data changes since the the missions were designed have shifted the balance of this scenario substantially. Training is supposed to be just that a "training piece of cake". But I highly doubt if that much regression testing was done with each of the patches or that included missions were reworked to use the latest editor features. When I was with PG, I generally had 1 or 2 favorite missions to do all my testing with. So, all patches were validated like that. That meant 98% of included content and playable settings were not retested. Yes, I could have gone further than I did, but the only way to really spot issues was to be intimately familiar with the engines behavior as I with a limited set. This is why one the project features of large scale commercial software is a test harness (automated testing) with a complete set of regression testing scripts. BTW, the developers are even worse than the betas as they are mainly looking to check how "new" functionality behaves. (You may ask if I knew better, then why did I not do better? I was just a volunteer in someone else's resource deficient business.)

I was desperate. I even tried using data from another game.

Thank you. It was very thoughtful of you to personally take a look. I was really surprised by the mission. Being that it is "training", I expected a piece of cake. So, I was expecting their rounds to bounce off my glacis with their armor being made of 2 ply tissue paper. Thanks!

Yes, I am trying to preserve at least 3 of my Shermans while taking out the German armor. Once I have armor superiority, I will bring my two reserve platoons out of hiding and clear the map. My problem is that I unable to win armor superiority.

The advanced training campaign. Final mission. Also, it has a companion section in the CMFI manual. Thanks.

Although I am not a noob, I am doing the CMBN/CMFI/CMRT/CMFB training to get some practice. I am playing on VETERAN as suggested. Otherwise, I would be at WARRIOR. I need to use my 5 X Sherman 75mm L to take out an unknown number of German Pz III and Pz IV. Then, whenI have fire superiority, I can counter attack with my reserve infantry. My problem is that I cannot make any progress with my Shermans. Down the right, trying to use a farm wall mid-way down the hill for hull down fails and I got shot up. From the the top in the middle at range, I get shot up. From the left, trying to run down a dry river bed in low profile to get to mix up close, I am still visible and get shot up. It seems that the German tanks can penetrate the Sherman's armor straight on. And certainly at range, I think they have superior optics and are scoring more hits. I cannot seem to flank them or get in close. I am not sure of if my turret rotation and loading out classes them. (Also, I don't even know if they have any anti-tank weapons: light or guns.) I have also one useless ATG; nothing crosses its LOS. I am at a loss how to win the tank duel. I know that bringing 2 reserve platoons out of hiding is simply going to get them shattered by German tanks and heavy artillery. Thanks.

The movies are by far the most time consuming aspect of the game.

Actually, it worked better than you imagine, I think because a different engine and that there was no action square and a greater use of sprites. Also, there were three states for path display: display all, display none, display selected. And something similar for firing at targets, but then CMx1 and CMx2 are very different. In CMx1, a unit could only engage a single target (other unit) at a point in time, but I believe in CMx2 it can engage multiple. One feature I love in CMx2 is that you can test LOS for a unit with a simulated move to anywhere on the battlefield. Trying to eye ball even gridded terrain is very hard. I just remember another thing I miss. When you had two AFVs one friendly and one not, if you could trace a LOS line for the main gun, it would tell you chance of hitting and chance of doing any damage. I cannot remember how it handled the tank ID problem. This is one thing GTMF does very well. In the past, they had a total gun/shell/armor/distance/incidence table for the player to study for every match up. It was previously a separate module which you would have use before battle. You can now get it in the 3D in the heat of battle. Not so useful for ATGs, but certainly will save the lives of many a conscript tank crew.

It's not a big deal. Thing I really miss from CMBB/CMAK was show all path behavior. I don't believe you needed any unit selected. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY YOU COULD CLICK ON ANY PATH, AND IT WOULD ACTIVATE FOR EDITING WITHOUT HAVING TO FIND THE ROOT UNIT.

I was watching a Josey Wales YT video today. I noticed that there was no HUD or anything reflective of a game. Is he doing this via video editing or is there a keystroke combination which removes the HUD? Thanks.

I just found out that I can SHFT-M or SHFT-K to create a circular arc. I recall in CMBB/CMAK there was a key stroke for a semi-circular arc. Is there such a keystroke combination in CMx2? THANKS.