Slapdragon

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon: Slapdragon This may be right, but it was, as you has said, an isolated case. And how long did they need to reorganize before they attacked?<hr></blockquote> In the case of the 761st ambush, according to the unit AAR (which was published when the unit was awarded a Presidential award in 1976 for the actions on this day and others) 6 tanks where knocked out in quick succession, then a sergeant began to rally downed crews and led a charge to take the guns before they could shoot into the upcoming unit, By the z time, the action lasted about 17 minutes. Two of those guys where considered for the CMH from that action though, so it was no ordinary fight. (neither recieved it because the tankers were black and the military did not, at that time at least, want any more Dory Balls. They would change their mind later though, but the CMH was gone by then).

dalem , might I suggest, on a private web page of course, creating a diner's guide to the BTS forum? Instead of meals though, it would identify weiners and rate them from one to five franks, in terms of weinerness.

I am proud to announce a new, and different CM contest. Never before seen in civilized times. Hakku Atchoo will be travelling down to Slapdragonland in Columbia South Carolina with a rusty pitted.357 magnum revolver hidden in some crevice or other of his car, to face the ruling champion of the world Slapdragon, with his his .40 Glock service pistol, in a contest of marksmanship and skill. No, we will not be shooting at each other, but at paper targets, while I attempt to teach the man from North Carolina how to hit something larger than a barn at two meters. At the end of the day, I will challenge to gonaff to a single six shot string into a 3x5 card at 10 meters slow fire. Winner to bask in triumph before the gods of cordite and salt peter, looser to slink away manhood forever damaged. Now, I am not above taking bets on this little affair. Remember that I have tremers palsy in my hands, an extreme drinking condition, take a medication usually reserved for calming gorillas, and now days do not get much sleep. Lets start the odds at three to one, in Hakku's favor, shall we?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Should arrive in 2 days... it will be the ticking package<hr></blockquote> Careful, last time Berli sent anyone a Peng badge they had to close a congressional building for six months and hose off all the postmen.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cauldron: flamethrowers: Firstly, Andreas is NOT the becon of virtue for CM and we do not have to convince him of anything. In fact the most useful thing he could do is shut up. STFU A program I watched 3 years ago brought together Russian and German fighters at Kursk. Amongst them was a trainer for FT's from the SS. Thier prime non city role was apparently the clearing of trenches ( quickly), similar to the buldozer tanks in Iraq. In any case he said they were " very effective". Other points on keeping FT's with units or incorporating them within units seems a good idea to me. off to the eastern BBQ party <hr></blockquote> Warning, Troll Alert. Besides, just for funsies, I decided to do a search. We have 7 different Pupchen threads asking the same thing, and these rather rare examples of extreme idiocy. Here is a few links just to warm your hearts: http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=022598 http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=021402&p= Now, back to the discussion.

While I love the concept of a strategic layer, I also realize that it would be nearly impossible to program on a CD-ROM and be playable. You would need it to be a server side development. which would require online programmers, a pay for play system, and some way ot handle the bane of WW2Online, huge bugs and players coming and going to the battle at odd times. CMMC is the serious version of this, and may be the only way it can be achieved with current technology in a way that money can be made on it. Even the fact that COCAT is not cross platform, and the CMMC has not developed very many online tools to run on PHP or some other server scripting and database system, despite literally having hundreds of volunteers working constantly, shows the real life limitations of developing a huge project. Even the smaller slapstick soap opera metacampaign needs hundreds of hours of work to make it run. I think that the computer industry will have to move forward with more cross platform programming, server programs that do the work of a GM for you, and the like before a game like CM can do more than set out some hooks for play.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Here is the original, Bauhaus. You are simply a punk. 'Ugliest girl' sues school district over taunting Los Angeles Times Jan. 09, 2002 09:40:00 snip <hr></blockquote> Now, I find it interesting that Janis Joplin , who Timothy Leary (a name that does not jet the Janis bold) coined the phrase that includes chrome and trailer hitch, was voted ugliest and least talented girl in her school year book.

Also there are isolated cases of crews from knocked out tanks taking the offensive, as is the case of the 761st Tank Battalion which charged a line of Pak 43 AT guns after loosing a half dozen tanks, capturing the guns on foot using crews from the dead tanks. You may run into a situation where a crew or two, martialed in the right place, grabs victory from the jaws of defeat. More likely, if you use them boldly, they will get blown away, but those are the breaks.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Croda: festering and fecking give a pretty gruesome image when combined, don't they...Like Michael Dorosh on a date. Yech!<hr></blockquote> What you don't know is that Michael is actually the porno star Jack hammer, who also likes to play CM. While I have never met him in person, I have it on good authority that although mild mannered and calm on the inside, he is actually a paid performer of the carnal acts. His nick name the Pilsbury Dorosh boy did not come about because he liked to eat xup cakes.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC: "is it not possible that your laser like focus on unit pricing is the result of your addiction to ladder matches?" It is a fair question. The answer is no, it is not possible. Because I am not addicted to ladder matches. I don't play in them at all. yadda yadda yadda In the past, sometimes the response to pricing concerns has been to urge us to focus on modeling changes instead. Which is what this thread started out doing. I'd settle for either, really. The veto of modeling changes obviously belongs to BTS. Pricing is not obviously in the same category, because nobody needs BTS' approval to change unit prices by mutual consent.<hr></blockquote> Yes, and the game will support you. There are several ways you can get per quod cheaper flamethrowers that does not involve having to learn to use them better in games. 1) Ask your opponent for a +10% bonus because you intend to use horribly under modelled and difficult to use units. Many players will be happy to oblige. 2) Ask a thrid party to create a scenario for you on the style of a quick battle with the understanding that you will get slipped some extra units. 3) Play the next higher price band to offset the huge cost of flame throwers. Otherwise, I would read Steve's comments for content and understand the very good reason why flamethrowers should not be changed. Any change made to the game requires a certian amount of work and playtesting. Right now, in general, experienced players find that the flamethrower works when used correctly, does not work when used incorrectly, and functions in a historical manner on the battlefield. In particular some of the most experienced scenario designers, whom BTS I am sure relies on for feedback, and qiute satisfied with the model as present. One or two players, for game and victory purposes, want a change made to flamethrowers. Since they are modelled as accurately as is possible at this juncture, then price is where they want the change. The reason appears that they want the flamethrower to go from rare and used on special occasions, to a common device of victory. However, there are hundreds of schools of thought who want hundreds of changes made. Some people only play commonwealth and want those units made cheaper on principal. Some people think German armor is undermodelled, and again, in principal, want them dcheaper. Some people want more expensive SMGs, more expensive US artillery, less expensive light tanks and tracks, more expensive zooks team, less expensive zook teams, and then I got tired of using the search function and stopped. Everyone had some pet unit which they desired to be a little cheaper or more expensive, at least when they took the unit into battle. Now, if BTS acceded to each and every demand, the game would never proigress because all BTS would be forever tweeking prices without any system or plan based soley on the personal feelings of a few players, which may or may not be shared by all. Since the QB is secondary to secenarios, all of this mess can be avoided by just not getting into it without compelling reason, and without a change to the model rather than to individual units. Now we come back to you and your quandry. First you say the flamethrower is useless. The answer to that is of course, if you find them useless, do not use them. But now you want them in your "bag of tricks" but only at a cheaper price. Now I have taken an economics class, and know that pricing in an open market does not work the way you think it does. Basically, if a unit (of any type -- CM units to underwear in the store) is useful, and the cost of manufacture is not a negating issue, then the unit will be priced at what the market will bear, especially in a situation of a monopoly. That flamethrowers are useful enough to many to purchase, that they are useful, sometimes even crucial in the right battle as proven to me in Berli's battle and earlier experience, means that the cost set is justified when and where I do need them. Of course, taking a flamethrower is always a gamble that the situation will not call for them, and in fact, few situations aside from close assault did. So, just because women's underwear is not useful to you, does not mean that women's underwear should be reduced in price all around the world. It is useful to some people in some situations, and those peopel will pay top dollar rather than be without it. So perhaps it is best to think of flamethrowers as something you personnaly do not need in battle because they are too expensive, while the rest of us will buy or not buy them as the situation presents itself. Otherwise, your only recourse, would be to develop a new system of prices that take into account every unit in the game, and creates a new balance of prices, and then sell it to BTS, being careful to listen to their and others objections in the process, and hope your system is better than the current system in an obvious manner, thus encouraging adoption. We know there is a new change in the system, called rarity, which will make flamethrowers even more expensive in QBs. They were afterall, rare on the ground.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by jd: Slapp Really can't you come up with some other reason that that tired old saw. Hell, even I hates them, everyone does, so do try to be more than pendantically inspired. there's a good chap...<hr></blockquote> You don't understand jd, I work for Justice. You can never make fun of lawyer too long or with too much gusto. Especially those who are involved with the government.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by redwolf: No, it is only losses, starting size doe snot matter. See previous threads on victory score.<hr></blockquote> Doe snot? That is about the funniest thing I have ever heard you say deer.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: Provisionally Patch, only provisionally. We shall have to see. Joe<hr></blockquote> I for one have missed Joe and hope he regains justicar. jd on the other hand can broil in the deepest pit of hell reserved for lawyers, although except for his profession I find him an agreeable sort. Certianly much better company than Gunny Bunny.

This is very true. I heard someone complain that a Sherman E8 costs near in price ot a Panther, even though 10 Shermans can be defeated by 7 Panthers. But this ignores the huge anti-infantry advantage of the Shermans, the flexibility of 10 units over 7, and the Shermman's gyros. People line up 10 Shermans and 7 Panthers on a pool table and play last one standing to develop statistics that are worthless. BTS uses a complex and imperfect formula to determine unit costs. I know this because each time a change is made to a tank, the cost points change slightly. BTS just does not hack a point off or add one, it lets their formula do the work for them. The result is that my Shermans facing all German infantry or light armor are at an advantage, while my Shermans facing heavier armor are at a disadvantage points wise. The same goes for the flamethrower. Both sides are equally punished if the points make it more expensive than in the perfect world. The only thing to really care about is if they perform in a historical way. Since they appear to be historical in use, they are ok. But, in fact, a well used flame thrower of any type is very powerful. One in the wrong place can ruin your day. As for playing someone to prove or disprove something, I would only do it if it where a scientific test and not penis measuring or grudge match. As it is I played a Berli scenario and was quite satisfied that in their proper environment, the flame thrower is a high stakes, high reward weapon that can turn the tide of a battle with its effect on morale during assaults.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tero: Originally posted by Swift: [qb]Well, you lost the first try, didn't you! In the most strict sense of the word we "lost" both tries. But what does it really mean to lose a war ? [/QB]<hr></blockquote> I find it extremely ironic that the term "Finlandization" means to fold without a fight when faced with a alrger enemy after having scared away all your friends.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Puff the Magic Dragon: Slapdragon SMG squads undeafetable? LOL! The magic of CM is: nothing is undefeatable. Well, maybe except the Jagdtiger. But I haven't faced them often enough to verify.<hr></blockquote> Talk to JasonC. Last I heard from him they walked on water, killed tanks with single bursts, cleared towns with 1 ammo point, and made great espresso.

You usually use shift and control to zoom in and out.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seanachai: If you don't believe me, look at what these hedonistic thugs have already done to our own Pacific Northwest. Most of Oregon and Washington are so overrun with these 'self-actualizing' navel contemplators that the Canadians are faced with the threat of refugee camps as the natives of Portland and Seattle attempt to flee the encroachment of the Californiacators. Therefore, Australians, I say to you: do not be taken in by the lies and distortions offered to you by the honey-tongued Chrisl. It is true that my aim is to crush you all beneath my hobnailed gnomeboots. But at least, lads, I'll kill you clean, and leave your land unsullied by boutiques and designer pizza franchises. I offer you cold steel, but Chrisl would corrupt the very fiber of your nation, until you stand alone, lost, and 'in therapy' in a perverted Disneyland caricature of your own land. [ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Seanachai ]<hr></blockquote> But Seanachai, you do not realize that the Aussies have a great secret weapon in the war against Kalifornian immigration. They need only post the weiner from down under at the gate to great each US passenger as he / she / or it steps from it with a diatribe on US politics, and they will book flights immediately, lest the brain ebola spread to them.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai: Non Gamey Update: 3.75 lb Annabella Ramesar entered into this world today thanks to induced labor. The baby and the mother are doing fine. The mother is a bit grumpy due to a C-Section. Thanks for the support, folks.<hr></blockquote> Congratulations. Gonna teach her the game now, or wait until she is 16 months old?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Warmaker: I've seen a few documentaries with US tanks on some slope with their guns at high angles to act as some sort of artillery. Don't know how accurate/effective it was though. Are command tanks going to be able to call artillery fire in CMBB? Or is there going to be an actual command tank variant for many tank models?<hr></blockquote> It was very accurate and effective, but took a special design of the gun (facilitated by the deep Sherman turret). Every US tank could do it. However, it was rare, and mostly for preplanned shoots. To simulate this, use a 75mm spotter. US tanks could call artillery through the net, but very rarely did, not being idea artillery spotting platforms. I do not think other countries did this, except for special built vehicles.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by JasonC: I notice that no one has taken my up on my combat test offer - still. Slap wants to pretend that SMGs are perfectly modeled and priced too. He is welcome to try to prove it - but he won't.<hr></blockquote> Jason, the reason no wants to play you is most decidedly not because of your hugely proficient prowess with the deadly and undefeatable SMG squads. It is not because of your correctness is this or that pet argument. I just played a scenario that Berli provided the showed he was indeed correct on the matters of flamethrowers.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Persephone: [QB] And now for the latest Cesspool News Network update: Joe Shaw, who is on a short sabbatical from his Justicar duties and The Lawyer™, have been seen flying above the Cesspool in what appears to be an aircraft of some sorts. Gawd help us! Persephone <hr></blockquote> My news sources said it was a Tiger Moth filled with old men... wait, it is a Tiger Moth filled with old men. Looks like a scene from Cocoon. I expect to see Ron Howard show up to this board and direct the plane to a landing using landing plaps cut from a case of geritol.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by dalem: That guy is still a wiener.<hr></blockquote> Wor, not only do we have news, but a commentary on the news. I am feeling very content that the cesspool, in its ultimate filth, is evolving to something even more putrid that before. The Cesspool New Network. And Croda , I have often wanted to find a way to set the uberaussies at the throat of the uberfinns and then take bets in a sort of off track betting, or more like a gamecock fighting. If you find a way, I will handicap the events.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Boo_Radley: I wondered about that. Another thing that confused me is abandoned equipment. I had a crewman on a German infantry gun, he got panicky and ran away. Later, after he had calmed down, I put him back in position, but the gun was still abandoned. Why?<hr></blockquote> The engine does not handle the remanning of equipment in the limited time frame of a battle. Sort of like, you may have ordered him back ot the peice, but hell if he is going get back on it just 10 minutes after he ran away. However, in operations, surviving crews will staff guns that are not knocked out.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Seanachai: Wonderful. I just had a quick go at the Outer Boards...<hr></blockquote> My belief is that there shoudl be a Pengdom news reporting service that comes to the MBT and reports on the triviality of real life for the unwashed mass.