danielh

To the Tiger II's effectiveness: Experiences and problems in employing the Tiger II on the East Front are revealed in the following report dated 25 November 1944 written by Hauptmann Fromme, commander of schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 : "The Abteilung was loaded to move to Hungary starting on 9 October 1944 in order to complete their organization in the area of Budapest. The government crisis made it necessary to employ the Abteilung for the ocupation of the castle on 16 October. This was almost exclusively a demonstration but was thoroughly successful." " Increased enemy activity east of the Theiss and near Debrecen required immediate employment. The Panzers were unloaded from rail transport in the Szelnok area, but because of a shortage of Ssyms-Wagen , not all of them arrived on time in the assembly area. Those that were unloaded immediately marched off to the assembly area in order to start the attack several hours later. The Panzers that arrived the next day were also concentrated in a Kampfgruppe , and attached to another Division, so the Abteilung went into action in two Kampfgruppen with different Divisions on different days with the intention of reassembling after successfully penetrating through the enemy defenses. Both Kampfgruppen were extraordinarily successful. From 19 October until the unit was reassembled on 23 October, 120 anti-tank guns and 19 artillery pieces were destroyed. The very tough and determined opponent (punitive battalion) was badly shaken by an energetic charge. Rearward communications were brought into complete confusion by destroying convoys and a transport train, which caused the Russian 6th Army to pull out of the Derbacen area. The entire stretch covered in this action of about 250 kilometers was achieved without significant mechanical breakdowns. In these battles, the Tiger II proved itself in its armor protection as well as mechanical reliability. It was not exceptional that Tiger II were hit up to 20 times without falling out." "The following action was limited to small tasks, especially counterattacks with weak Infanterie forces against the enemy who crossed over to the Theiss northwest of Szolnok. However, these caused the Russians to forbid their units from conducting any major combat where Tigers were located." "During this week, and continuing up to today, the Abteilung was not given time to perform maintenance in spite of urgent requests continuously being made. This was partially due to the situation, but also to partially due to the lack of understanding of the higher command to which the unit was subordinated, who always asked two questions: 'How many are operational?' and 'How many will be repaired in the next few days?' In spite of this, up to 30 October an average of 25 to 30 Tigers II were operational every day." "After 18 November, the Abteilung was in action in the Gyoengyoes. Continuous bad weather made it almost impossible to leave the roads. Because the Panzergrenadier Regiment and Grenadier Regiment are too weak, the Tigers and also the Flak-Panzer usually had to stand guard in the main battle line without any sort of infantry close protection. Attacks in total darkness at night in non scouted terrain with infantry forces that were much too weak, capturing a city heavily occupied by the enemy infantry and anti-tank guns by a night attack with 120 convalescents and a SPW-Battalion with a strength of 40 men, were not unusual. These attacks were successful only if the Grenadiere actually accompanied the the attack in front and to the side of the Tigers ( to destroy the anti-tank guns that were frequently located in the doors of houses and gateways which couldn't be engaged by the Panzers) and if the infantry didn't crumble and desert the Tigers when when they met the first resistance so that it was easy for the enemy tank-hunter teams to fight the Tigers. "In tank versus tank combat, the 8.8 cm KwK.43 gun is effective in destroying all of the types of enemy tanks, including the Stalin, at ranges up to 1500 meters. Under favorable conditions, the T-34 and T-43 tanks can also be knocked out at ranges up to 3000 meters. As previously experienced in the West with Allied tanks, it was often observed that the Russian tanks declined to fight Tigers or turned and fled after their first tank was knocked out. The same thing applies to the Russian assault guns as to the Stalin tanks. Kills at over 1500 meters have not yet occurred." "In summary it can be said that the Tiger II has proven itself in every way and is a weapon that is feared by the enemy. The concentrated Tiger -Abteilung correctly employed tactically will always bring success. But most of the higher commands that were encountered did not perceive the technical and tactical importance of a Tiger-Abteilung ." Greets Daniel

Armor: The mantlet was very heavy, with 120mm of armor, and carried the long and heavy gun. At this point it should be noted that the Tiger I had the best quality armor of any German tank. The rolled homogeneous nickel-steel plate, electro-welded interlocking-plate construction armor had a Brinell hardness index of 255-260 (the best homogeneous armor hardness level for WW II standards), and rigorous quality control procedures ensured it stayed that way. The Tiger's armor was much superior to that of, for example the Panther, which armor had a much higher Brinell index, and was thus very brittle. MODEL TIGER I Nr. 1 to 47 FRONT Gun Mantlet 120mm @ 0° Turretfront 100mm @ 10° Superstructure 100mm @ 9° Hull 100mm @ 25° SIDE Turret 80mm @ 0° Superstructure 80mm @ 0° REAR Turret 80mm @ 0° Hull 80mm @ 9° 80mm @ 30° 80mm @ 30° Gun accuracy (percentage of first round hit on a 2.5m x 2.5m target): Gun 88mm KwK 36 L/56 88mm KwK 43 L/71 Ammunition Pzgr. 39 Pzgr. 40 Gr.39 HL Pzgr. 39/43 Pzgr. 40/43 Range 500m 100 (100) 100 (100) 100 (98) 100 (100) 100 (100) 1000m 100 (93) 99 (80) 94 (62) 100 (85) 100 (100) 1500m 98 (74) 89 (52) 72 (34) 95 (61) 97 (68) 2000m 87 (50) 71 (31) 52 (20) 85 (43) 89 (47) 2500m 71 (31) 55 (19) 74 (30) 78 (34) 3000m 53 (19) 61 (23) 66 (25) 3500m 51 (17) 4000m 42 (13) In brackets the practical values. Max turret traverse speed: 360° in 60 seconds. The expected performance from a Tiger I on a practice range was that the gunner would hit the target by the fourth round at ranges between 1200 and 2000 meters, In exceptional cases an individual Tiger I could fire at stationary enemy tanks at ranges up to 2500 meters. The expected performance of a Tiger I gunner (regular) on a practice range was one hit out of three rounds fired within 30 seconds at a tank traveling 20 kilometers per hour across the front at ranges from 800 to 1200 meters. To give you a picture of how effective the Tiger I really was: The 13.(Tiger) Kompanie/Panzer-Regiment Grossdeutschland reported their experience in employing the PzKpfw. VI Tiger from 7 to 19 March 1943 in the area of Poltawa-Belgorad: "During a scouting patrol two Tigers encountered about 20 Russian tanks on their front, while additional Russian tanks attacked from behind. A battle developed in which the armor and weapons of the Tiger were extraordinarily successful. Both Tigers were hit (mainly by 76.2mm armor-piercing shells) 10 or more times at ranges from 500 to 1000 meters. The armor held up all around. Not a single round penetrated through the armor. Also hits in the running gear, in which the suspension arms were torn away, did not immobilize the Tiger. While 76.2mm anti-tank shells continuously struck outside the armor, on the inside, undisturbed, the commander, gunner, and loader selected targets, aimed, and fired. The end result was 10 enemy tanks knocked out by two Tigers within 15 minutes." "First-round hits were usually achieved with the 88mm KwK gun at ranges between 600 to 1000 meters. At these ranges, the Panzer-Granate absolutely penetrated through the frontal armor of T-34 tanks. After penetrating through the frontal armor, the Panzer-Granate usually still destroyed the engine at the rear of the tank. In very few cases could the T-34 be set on fire when fired at from the front. In 80 percent of the cases, shots from the same range hitting the side of the hull toward the rear or the rear of the tank resulted in the fuel tanks exploding. Even at ranges of 1500 meters and longer, during favorable weather, it is possible to succeed in penetrating the T-34 with minimal expenditure of ammunition." On 15 March 1943, schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 reported on their experience in tank versus tank combat as follows: "The Abteilung has experience with the 8.8 cm Panzergranate (APCBC/HE, used by the Tiger I)." "Using the 8.8 cm Panzergranate , successes against enemy tanks were achieved at short as well long ranges. The most favorable range is 1,200 to 2,000 meters. At ranges up to 2,000 meters, a direct hit is reckoned on the first or at the latest by the second shot. Additionally, small errors in range estimates at these ranges are almost insignificant. However, with good visibility success is even possible at ranges over 3,000 meters. As an example, at ranges from 2,500 meters to 3,000 meters, one PzKpfw VI fired 18 rounds to destroy five T-34 tanks (of which three were moving across the front)." And a note to the 76 mm Tungsten rounds of the allied: The front of the turret of the Tiger II could theoretically be penetrated using the 17 Pounder firing a special tungsten armor piercing, super velocity, discarding sabot round. These rounds, however, were not especially accurate, they did not have an explosive filler for blast effect after penetration, and ricocheted off steep angles like the lower hull front of the Tiger II. When will CM come up to this standards ?? Greets Daniel [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 09-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 09-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 09-30-2000).]

So the most accurate guns were the big german trainguns ? With them you have then actually a somewhat oversized sniperrifle ?!! As far is i know the smaller guns were placed much nearer the target and should therefore have about the same acuraccy. And trigonometrie is much easier on land than on water. Moreover the shipguns were fired on enemy ships on sight and thus didn't need max elevation, and still most shots missed. And Mortars were actually almost in the frontline maybe 1 - 2 kilometers away at most, communication for correction was easier and faster. If it would not be that way the whole world would only use the biggest calibers, because the others are a waist of effort... Greets Daniel

The general order can not be changed without violating "security". But a way to shorten it a bit could be to plot orders and waypoints for multiple phases in advance including timing (Preplan your moves). But have the opportunity to change it after each cycle, this could shorten things especially in the initial phase at move to contact. Maybe something for CM 2 ? Greets Daniel

My wishlist for CM2: - Trenches, Tankobstacles, Houses with more floors and churchtowers which can be manned by spotters, snipers. Trees which can be climbed by snipers and spotters. More objects in general (roads, houses, bunkers) - Refined Terrainmodel where elevation is not fixed to 2.5 or 5 increments (?) - Inclusion of russianfront (The biggest battles were fought there (around 7 Mio. soldiers were killed at the russian front, in comparison the US lost 300'000 in total...) - Smarter Tank AI to simulate communication in between tanks of a unit (where available of course) - Tungsten rounds for german crack-units (Expensive) - Campaign mode with bigger maps, including reinforcment- and supplies- issues. - Improved artillery design (hit harder, but shorter). - Improved camouflage capabilities for stationary weapons - Better simulation of the capabilities of the human senses, most important the eyes (I did a scenario of my neighbourhood and was astonished to see how big the scenario became, to include objects which i have no problem to spot.) - Replayfeature for whole battle (All Actionphases linked together). - Generally bigger maps, and more realistic scenarios (Today most are much too small). - Manual including description of real units compositions (-> Good example Western Front) - More comfortable scenario-editor, Undo feature, copy paste - Incorporating PBEM for scenarios (Buy units, but prevent editing of other side). - Preview of map in PBEM prior to unit purchase (option). - Saveable camera positions - Bug fixed which are still present in CM (0.5 cal, naval guns, PSW 251/1 front armor, Panther turret armor....) Greets Daniel

I've tried for the first time the big naval guns, and couldn't believe what i saw. Target area had no LOS, so area fire. I did 4 tests. Result: out of 6 shots 4-5 land within a rectangle of around 50 x 50 m the craters overlap almost. To me that seems very unrealistic. What makes this guns so accurate ? They fire from around 20 or more kilometers away and travel a lot of different airlayers and then land within 50 x 50 m ?! They are by far the most efficient standoff weapon. I could hit and blow any non moving target on the map with 4 shots ! The pattern is actually much tighter than an 80 mm mortar area fire pattern. That's the pattern i suspect when i have LOS with 10.5 cm or 15 cm artillery but there the pattern is around 100 x 150. Why that ? Greets Daniel

Fixes: - M2 acuraccy greatly reduced, and treated like an AT-Gun by HT and Light armor - Not moved AT-/Inf- Guns much harder to spot, and at least the same durability (only those with protective shields of course as Inf-squads - Rocket-artillery, 28 cm Nebelwerfer all 5 rounds are shot simultaneously (enhancing the effect tremendously), and since max. firing distance was only 4000 m acuraccy should be slightly better (Test with LOS on target: 1 within 50 m, 1 within 75 m, 3 within 100, 0 within 125 m, 5 within 150 m, 6 > 200 m. Although not a pinpoint weapon the pattern should read: 1-2 within 50 m, 2-3 within 75 m, 5-6 within 100 m, 3-4 within 125 m, 2 within 150 m, 1 between 150 and 200 m. And Deviation to side should be much narrower, because all 5 were fired at once. Length-deviation can be more pronounced due to differences in the rocket propellant -> The same as in cluster bombs where side deviation is small but length dev. greater. They can be more expensive to prevent overuse, but it would add to the suspense of the game. Artillery area fire sould come more dense (shells arrive simultaneously) a battery normally fires at once (A friend of mine is artillery officer and told me they fire all guns of the battery at once, only the probe shots are individual (There's no reason to do it otherwise)). Thus enhancing the lethality and surprise moment. - Targets well hidden in Woods are spotted much too easy once they open fire - Differences between mortar- and barrel-gun artillery fire on armoured vehicles. A 10.5 cm HE-shell hitting a M-8 is deadly without any doubt (In CM the M-8 becomes evt. immobile), whereas it gets killed by direct small calibre direct mortarfire (Absolutely correct) -> Direct Artillery-shell hits kills Halftracks or thin plated armoured cars. - The HMG42/or Heavy allied 0.3 MG's effectiveness against infantry is a bit to low IMO (A squad coming under fire on open ground or paved road is history within 1-2 seconds, of course the (few) survivers hit the dirt and seek for protection, but the initial effect would cost certainly more than 0 - 2 casualties). One single good digged in MG-position with free field of fire can not be stormed front on without unbearable heavy losses. - AT-Guns and fieldguns effectiveness is much to low. They can be spotted much to easy especially in Woods,scat trees. One can assume that such guns, if not moved, are camouflaged and digged in which gives them in addition to the protective shield very good protection against small arms fire. In CM they can be taken out even by small arms fire up to laughable distances (> 400 m). Also the big 8.8 is of no use in this game, because it's so big, but these guns were usually digged in up to the barrel and very well camouflaged (In Africa, the Normandy and the Westwall the 8.8 took a heavy toll on enemy armor). Greets Daniel

I totally agree in the over-effectiveness of the M2 especially it's accuraccy. Compare it's effectiveness to real "small" calibre AT-guns like the 5 cm or 7.5 cm Inf gun WITH protective shields. The AT-guns can seldom fire more than 2 shots before being abandoned (I had instances were an Inf-squad took one out (digged in of course) in best cover (darkest possible blue LOS in a forest from around 400 m without having fired a shot). The M2-squad on the other hand with NO protection needs wagonloads of ammunition to be spent on. (Of course the AT-guns for instance in a forest dugged in and camouflaged, were very hard to spot, and when fired on, the crew was protected by the dig in holes AND the protective shield). So FIRST, small AT-guns (not moved) should be nearly as durable as digged in inf-squads (One only think about the laughable effective Recoiless AT-guns). Until now AT-guns are a waist of points, the only exception is the M2. (Ask Rommel how he was able to beat the british tank masses with he's big 8.8 AA gun-batteries in the desert...). Greets Daniel

Simon ! ROFL that cured my pains a bit "Spotables", just great !! Suggest that for the 1.0.4 patch !! Good suggestions by the others, thank you ! The out/in wood LOS i didn't really proofed directly but it's quite obvious when playing the game. (I've read the WWI-Biographic book by Erwin Rommel, he became a battallion-leader at the end of WWI, the books describes a lot of his battles fought in WWI in different theaters (french, russian, italian). Often they did unexpected flanking manouvers by sneaking up at unexpected spots through ravines or similars, a thing clearly impossible with combat mission.., a superb book for each infantry-leader btw, written by one of the genius military leaders). Greets Daniel

Outset: Spotter in big light building in second floor standing very near the wall to the enemy (was there before the enemy approached). The Spotter gets engagend over 800 m (no joke) by an MG of a Halftrack. With my troops even a sharpshooter would never engage over such a distance. The timeset is dawn/dusk. Placing a spotter in a building means, as one can expect from real world behaviour, that he places his glasses in a way that only they are visible for some time at a window. Btw that house is one of around 15 possible in that town. When will it happen that a tank is engaged by a pistol over 1000 m and destroyed (hitting the slits..) ?? Version is 1.01 Greets Daniel

Good to get the same impression of other people, showing clearly the importance. Thanks ! Daniel

Tank-story by Hans Ulrich Rudel (From "Stuka Pilot" Story took place early 1944 "I am out with the anti-tank flight S and SW of Alexandrija; after firing off all our ammunition we are homeward bound for Kirowograd to refuel and remunition for another sortie. We are skimming the almost level plain at a low altitude half way to Kirowograd and i am just above a dense hedgerow. Behind it twelve tanks are on the move. I recognize them instantly: all T 34s heading N. In a twinkling i have climbed and circled round the quarry. Where on earth have they come from ? (Far behind the frontline) They are Soviets beyond all doubt. Not one of us has a round of ammunition left. We must therefore let them rumble on. Who knows where they will get to be the time we can return with fresh ammunition and attack them. The T 34 pay no attention to us and proceed on their way behind the hedge. Further North i see something else moving on the ground. We fly over at low level and recognize German comrades with type IV tanks. They gaze up at us from their tanks, thinking of anything else but the nearness of an enemy and a possible skirmish. Both lots of tanks are travelling towards each other separated only by this tall line of bushes. Neither can see the other because the Soviets are moving in sunken ground below a railway embarkment. I fire red Vereys, wave and drop a message container in which i inform my tank colleagues who and what are coming in their direction two miles away, assuming the both keep to the same course. By dipping my aircraft towards the spot where the T 34s are travelling at the moment i tip them off to the nearness of the enemy. Both parties drive steadily on. Circling low we watch for what is going to happen. Our tanks halt at a point where there is a gap of a few yards in the hedge. At any minute now they may both be suddenly surprised by the sight of the other at point blank range. I wait tensly for the second when both will get the shock. The Russians have closed down their turret-tops; perhaps they suspect something from our astonishing manouvres. They are still rolling in the same direction, travelling fast. The lateral distance separating the two parties is not more than fifteen or twenty yards. Now ! The russians in the sunken ground have reached the gap and see the enemy in front of them on the other side of the hedge. It takes exactly two seconds for the first IV tank to set his opposite number on fire at range of twenty yards; bits and pieces pepper the air. In another few seconds -- up till then i have not seen a shot fired from the rest of the T 34s -- six russian tanks are ablaze. The impression is that they have been taken completely by suprise and have not yet grasped what is happening even now. Some T 34s move in closer under cover of the hedge, the rest try to escape over the railway embarkment. They are immediately picked off by the german tanks which have meanwhile got a field of fire through the gap. The whole engagment lasts one minute. It is in its way unique. Without loss to ourselves every one of the T 34s have been destroyed." Interesting about this encounter to me is the time it needed for the first Pz IV to open fire 2 seconds from the appearance of the enemy tanks in sight and opening fire and few seconds for the others to hit another 5. In an ambushposition or when suspecting the enemy at a certain point reactiontime is very short indeed. Would like to see that in CM too !! In CM tests clearly revealed that even recon needs up atleast 5 seconds and another 5 - 6 seconds even when turret must be moved only a little bit 1 - 5 degrees. Greets Daniel

Thanks a lot Sten (What's with my LOS ???!!) I did now several tests, the most enlightning: 1 M5 regular, 1 PzIVH regular 305 m apart against each other unbuttoned both about 10 degrees off axis (have to turn turret), plain ground, clear, dry no moving of tanks. I did 20 tests (saved the game): The results: 70 % Killratio for Pz IV 70 % missed first shots of Pz IV (whereas 6 short, 1 wide), M5 20 % 100 % First shots by Pz IV What do we learn ? Good reaction by germans, but bad acuraccy, strange isn't it ????!! -> Spoiled potential of gun when not met by armor -> M4 is bumped up in it's potential (Will do the test with an M4 right now...) 1 M4A3 regular vs. 1 PzIVH regular, rest same as above. Victory: 7 M4 35 %, 6 30 % Pz IV (Very often both hit each other so victor was then when one survived) Kills: 14 M4, 13 Pz IV (7 both were killed) First Shots: 14 M4 70 %, 6 Pz IV (Due to buttoned M4 crews by MG fire) Missed firsts: 5 Pz IV 25 %, 6 30 % M4 Now with elite Pz IVH against M4A3 regular: Victory: 10 50 % Pz IV, 6 30 % M4 Kills: 14 Pz IV, 10 M4 ( 4 both were killed) First shot: 12 M4, 9 Pz IV Missed first: 6 M4 30 % , 3 15 % Pz IV One can notice the big difference first in missed first hits against the M5 (Size ?), and the quite big impact of an elite crew (good). The results over all seem quite OK, but it's achieved by sometimes strange sideffects like the 70 % misses (most of them short btw) against the M5 whereas only 25 % against the M4. As elite the PzIV several times buttoned the M4-crew to disable him inspite to the regular. I also found, that adding a scattered tree section which has no visual effect on the LOS color does indeed have an impact on time needed for recognition What do we learn about all this ? Over the long run things seem to lead to correct performances in a fight, but there can be odd behaviour at the one instance. This might have impact on deployment of "micro" tactics (That tank at 100 m missed the fully stopped enemy tank, and smashed my defence therefore in that battle...). 70 % missed first shots at 300 m are odd because one can encounter it quite often, but overall the result will be correct. The impact on specific tactics may be there and hinder their deployment as would in the real world for a specific situation, over the long run they will work about appropriate however. Fascinating !! Greets Daniel [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 07-19-2000).]

Just a tiny little question how can i figure out what version of CM i have on my drive (Official CD-Release)? To the Halftrack thing: Of course an oversized Rifle with AP or a thrown handgrenade or riflegrenade killed a halftrack, but NOT a 7.9 mm MG from around 400 - 200 m, as was the case with my Tigers against american halftracks. I was keen to wreck them to havoc but not by MG-Fire of course ! The M5 killing the Jagdpanther, good hunting tactics must be awarded !! Greets Daniel

Silencer, Very good post, i noticed the same thing today as i also made some tests. There seem to be bursts were one side hits and then again for some time nothing hits. I also noticed the huge impact of open or buttoned crew. When buttoned they couldn't engage the previous engaged enemy anymore from around 1800 m on. So a static defense position too far away won't be a good thing. In a TV-Interview of some russian and german tank crews about the battle of Pochorowka at Kursk (The biggest tank battle in history), a T-34 Commander told that he was crossing a railroad line (which was somewhat elevated above otherwise mostly plain ground), he was in open position and could glance a lighting and a cloud around 3 - 4 km away (His guessing) he took his glasses and examined the position it was an elephant firing in his direction, a second later his tanks body was hit killing his driver and injuring his MG-gunner. He also stated that the germans always tried to engage them over long distances to maximize their superiority and that they (the russians) rushed upon their positions at full possible speed to get a shorter distance shot, because they could not engage the enemy with the T-34 of that time over long distances (This however changed with the Josef Stalin tanks). I also once met a very old man, during a job (still very vital). It came out that he was a tank mechanic first and then to the end of the war a tanker himself. I asked him about the differences between russian and german tanks and their ability. He stated that the german tank cannons were superior and very accurat. He statet to hit a normal rilfe practice target with ease up to 500 - 600 m in the center section (they also had to calibrate the guns of the tanks occasionally). He stated that russian artillery was very acurrat and always anywhere, but that the tanks were inept in acuracy. He was caught in the summer offensive of 1944 and survived the horrible siberian camps. Greets Daniel [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 07-18-2000).]

Jeff, On photographs one can very seldom see one, most probable only 1 or 2 vehicles per bigger unit were equipped with them. I think here some sort of magic paves the way for allied victory, maybe to augment the absence of ULTRA ? In Villers Bocage i had Phantom tanks crossing a broad paved street in front of my tanks about 100 - 200 m coming from nowhere going to nowhere...., i think they had some sort of special camouflage in addition to the hedgehogs too. Greets Daniel

Jeff, In the Villers Bocage Operation my Tigers took out a whole bunch of Halftracks only with their machineguns ! I wondered a bit, but the dismounting crews were great in spoiling my tanks task to hunt enemy armor, all around 400 - 500 m in front of my tanks. Now i know why halftracks are so cheap to get, they seem to give the Inf-squad some little additional protection. In photographs of german armor operations (russia) one can clearly see the halftracks sprayed in between the advancing tanks, maybe they were nuts, delivering some scrap metal to the enemy... Greets Daniel

Sten and Scott, thank you for your reply !! Ok i've done what Sten told me and searched the forum, and found some posts which bring some light to the topic (and a lot of other intersting stuff) but nowhere sufficiently explain the targeting/range/sighting/experience/tactics things really to the end (IMHO). What i learned is that everything relies on probability determined by the use of look-up tables (Good, that's the way i would do it too). Thus everythings relies on the proper "initial" values (which btw are also quite easy to alter). Now the experiences in the game with elite tankcrews and the word elite says it's all (Wittmann, Peiper and so fort), is far below their real achievements and used tactics, they can in fact only be rendered as a fresh recruits abilities in a fight. The errors are (Once again elite crews): - Concentration on minor threats (Going for that crew instead the tank 50 m beneath already targeting them) - Improper use of their weaponsystems (Use of Coax at close range, thus waisting precious time and warning the enemy (No the gun has not to be reloaded initially, he only has to aim (put the sight on the target) and hit the trigger) (< 500 m) (There's a superb story in this forum about a single lonely german Tiger tankcrew disabling 22 T-34 within 30 minutes, whereas 5 were disabled within around a minute, these men were absolute professionals which performed equal to Formula One Schumacher and his team or a Micheal Jordan for instance (Guess the hit probability throwing a basketball and hit from 10 m away for an untrained.....), error is not an option to them, they're trained to master their weaponssystem in every aspect and were absolutely destined to their faith, and thus could achieve results which were far beyond the average) - Improper tactics (The "Hunt action mode" mentioned by the poster of above story, generally deployed by german armor depending completely on situation and thus every second and ditch counts, should be in the game too of course), driving a preset course set by the "God-commander"(Player) or the relatively slow Hunt order can never come near this.. Obvious it's a matter of soft values that come in which are hard to break down to numbers exactly, but it can be done by trial and error. I played also Panzer Elite which seems well known in this forum, and there too you won't miss a target at 300 m moving in front of you (atleast with Zeiss Optics..) and stopping ahead of your gun (while you stand). In fact since this is a tactical game one should be punished in doing errors and not be awarded (Driving an M3 out of a hidden place into the sights of 3 Pz IV's is with deadly certainty a tactical error). So i glue to it, probability is done to the bad in this game in certain areas. To have some "miracles/dooms" very seldom is good and must be there, but it's far too much. And as far as i think, or i'm supposed, to use it as a tactical game to contend against others and not against the cube. Scott: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Use the ambush command and use the hide command. But most importantly remember the 'mind set' of the game. You are not supposed to be omnipotent in CM. You give orders to your troops to position themselves overlooking an area...they will do so and THEN they will do what they were trained to do, fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> - I tried everything, ambush, open crew, buttoned crew, nothing helped but moving every other target out of sight... (In the german army this crew would have been court martialed by disobeying orders and being guilty to have killed a lot of their comrades by their failing). Fighting also has a lot to do with thinking, not necessarily during fighting there things must function almost unconcious, but be trained again and again, rethinked again and again, because error (reasons are unimportant results counts) is enemy number one.. If i would be in command of such a crew i would sent them back home or to some backline duties but NEVER let them command a tank ! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> **** happens. Its not that easy in a real life combat situation with both units moving and firing and real people spilling real blood all over the place. [/]QUOTE - As i mentioned the M3 drove into my LOF and then stopped, my 3 units where on halt and no other fighting was going on, some other enemy tank-units had been disabled during prior rounds in the same region by the same unit and others. (The M3 thing is just a well examined and rude example but there were many more such miracles and dooms during several other battles)

Thank you guys for your replies ! I don't fully agree with the optics thing but it's a nuissance. But during play of several scenarios now, me and others have found TWO really severe failings of the AI implementation of tank and anti-tank behaviour: - TARGET PRIORITY Chance Encounter; A Stug is placed in ambush position on the left side of the church across the road beneath the tree section, it is in perfect positon to overwatch the crossing and the road to the big light house, Ronsons are nearing the crossing and the road. (Everything moving in would be dead meat) Now, what happens, my Stug turns left to engage an already heavy scattered Inf-Squad which is engaged by my own infantry platoon placed nearby, a Ronson comes to the crossing and kills the Stug !! I had to reload and place the Stug in a way that he had no LOS to the Inf-squad. In PBEM this spoils the whole game, and brings up a lot of anger about the wasted time, instead of fun !! The same thing in the mission with the Pershings, my Tigers where engaging fleeing Inf-squads being absolutely no thread. Consequently i had to bring my Tigers so near to the Pershings that they were the nearest target (and loosing 3 of them, we catched all the Pershings but only after several reloadings..). There should be an order to tell the tank or anti-tank target priority, inf. or tanks or both. (This behaviour doesn't improve with experience, i have encountered it many, many times in different scenarios.) - Boresight RANGE, aiming respectively Another stupid thing, which brings so much disbelief is the aiming and shooting at very close range 0 - 500 m. I had 3 Pz IV's standing in position, when a Stuart came in their LOS on open ground 230 m away stopping immediately, no other targets around, all Crews open, all three engage the M3 having the first shot and all three shots are falling short about 20 m !!!! The M3 then kills one of my Pz IV's therefore and comes away unscathed !!!! (Not in a billion years such a thing would happen) 250 m, that's boresight range, there is no possibility to miss, put your sight on it, bam it's gone. (Just overjump the "range" routine in the program when under around 500 m, the exact distance being dependant on the muzzle velo) My tanks had to rotate their turrets around 10 degrees, the M3 90 degrees, and he moved into my line of sight which is never very favourable, because the first shot is yours always. In a PBEM such things spoil everything. My PzIV-crews must have been heavily drunk because they had to point the sight to the ground in front of the M3 in fact to miss ! With muzzle velo of > 800 m/s the shell might drop some centimeters prior to hit the target ! (In Panzer Elite a quite accurate WWII-tank sim you can try it out !!) Targeting, shooting - Bazooka or Panzerschreck teams; they shoot on a target even when hitchance is zero (which means to be dead) having a much better hitchance if they would wait... On one occasion i tried to stalk an immobilized Ronson with a veteran panzerschreck-crew, sadly they had a LOS on it with zero percent hit chance and fired all ammo on it prior reaching the desired spot. The targeting problems also are heavily encountered with them, even at distances of under 20 m an elite crew is able to miss the target frequently (out of a house).... I also noticed that the computer opponent's panzerschreck or bazooka teams seem to be much more deadly and much, much more durable, they hit you frequently up to 200 m even while you move (Maybe it's an illusion, but i very very rarely had effective bazooka or Panzeschreck teams, they are either killed by the slightest firing on them or they miss the target all the time or inflict minor damage. A hollow charge penetrating the turret for instance is fatal, much more in fact than an armor piercing round... (A 100 mm hollowcharge hitting the 50 mm side plate of a turret IS ABSOLUTELY FATAL for the crew in the turret, which means no commander, no loader, no gunner and most probable ignition of some ready ammo in the turret !!) In my opinion the two topics (range and target priority) MUST be resolved (if there are really trajectory calculation- and sighting- algorithms in the game....) with a patch to allow the proper deployment of Anti-tank- and Tank-tactics, enhanced Bazooka- and Panzerschreck abilities also would be highly recommended, since it gives the infantry some danger against tanks. In many scenarios the one which has tanks a the end and even if it's only one wins most of the time.. (although a tank is really a threat, a good hidden and experienced bazooka- or panzerschreck- team is almost impossible to spot and will shoot only if a hit is highly probable, it's their main weapon and if experienced one might expect that they know how to handle it effectively..) Another (minor) point are routed enemy squads fleeing over open space targeted by many machinge guns and cannons from all directions, more often than not they may loose none or one member in one round, forcing you to spend wagonloads of ammunition on them. In real a squad of 12 in open country 20 - 200 m away running in crossfire would be a matter of splitseconds to wipe out !! That's it i can't find anything else wrong !! Everything else is ABSOLUTELY SUPERB !! Greets Daniel

I've recently got the full CM-game, it's by far the best tactical sim i've ever played !! But still there are some topics which bring some disbelief into the game: - Armored transport vehicles are taken out by normal rifle-MG's -> Render them useless - The german-tank AI is bad. I had an Elite cew in a tiger, they used the coaxial two time for an enemy tank 100 m away, before shooting. On another occasion they needed 6 shots for an enemy tank 400 m away, in fact the enemy tank a cromwell drived into position and fired first, hitting me with the first shot, my tank was standing still and headed exactly to the position where the cromwell appeared.... It is known that the german optics were superior to the allied ones, and that an experienced crew needed 3 shots in average for tanks 1000 to 2000 m away standing still, at under 400 m the cannon could be fired right away, since trajectory was so flat then that a hit was almost sure. - The german tanks cannot cross Bocage, but all allieds can. That's another point which should be adressed. By far not all allied tanks were equipped with hedgehog equippment. (Compare a Tiger of 60 tons with a tiny Stuart, the Tiger would drive trough the bocage as if it would not be there for sure, whereas the Stuart couldn't cross at all). A good compromise would be that for instance tanks without hedgehog equipment can cross bocage only very, very slowly (2 turns) and maybe become bogged, whereas the ones with the equipment much faster (as actual in the game). - The armor: The Panther in CM is rated with 100 mm frontal turret armor. This value is only the half truth, because the gun manteling had another 110 mm. The same for the Tiger, which also had a 100 mm mantlet in addition to the 100 mm. The infantry-action is just unbelievable good !! Greets Daniel