fdiskboy

Hmmmm...teach me to post without reading the entire thread..... [ May 22, 2002, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: fdiskboy ]

Fionn, I'll respond here since the other thread is locked. Personal attacks aside. I did not intend to imply that that flamewar and all that went with it were amusing as in ha-ha funny. More as in ludicrous funny. Pathetic. In fact, I was one of the posters who advised that the BOTH of you cease and desist. Perhaps you can appreciate the distinction. I too have had my run-ins with Mark and understand the whole situation. However, some of the blame must rest on you for some of your responses. I'll let the personal attacks go since you did misunderstand me. You did not answer my most important question. Are you a programmer? My main point was not that adding to the interface is simple or not so simple, but that the programming arguments probably should come from Steve and Charles. I don't mind being disagreed with. I have not blasted you with scathing invective. Perhaps you could agree to disagree with me on a more polite level. If not, that's ok. I'm not looking to prove anything. Just discussing. As a peace offering, I would be willing to face off in a PBEM so that we could offer a running commentary on me getting my rear handed to me on a plate.

Fionn, I have to be honest with you. I take everything you say with a grain of salt after your little flamewar with Mark Sterner over at cdmag.com. Boy, but that was fun to watch. My question is this. I know you consider yourself to be a military expert. I am not disputing that. Are you a programmer? You said programming is never simple. Anytime you say never, you pretty much invalidate your argument. Never is a long time. Don't tell us why it's not simple, show us how. Respectfully, Land--a programmer

OGSF, A new genre?!? You need to check the definition of genre before you go shooting off your mouth. Played like a wargame?!? I've been playing CM like Quake. Think that could be my problem? At least we're the same in one respects I too wish you'd quit whining about the whiners and go play the game.

David, Your leaps in logic continue to amaze me. You should run for political office if you haven't already. You would fit in well in Washington. This is not intended as an insult. You and I obviously come from different schools when it comes to debate and logic. I believe our discussion can best be left at that. We speak different languages it seems.

David, Fascism? Where did that come from? (That's a joke. I hold a history degree, I don't need any more lectures from you.) Perhaps you are content to allow others to decide for you what is best. I am not. I call it like I see it. If that makes you uncomfortable and borders on sacrilege where Combat Mission is concerned, I feel for you. The status quo can always be improved upon. BTS has done it. That doesn't mean the apex has been reached. I think you're wrong. You think I'm wrong. Such is life. Please don't put words in my mouth or jump to illogical conclusions.

One quick thought after reading David's post. This is why I dislike government. Because it generally thinks it knows better than me when it comes to what is best for me. David says, "This is not being awkward or tedious - it is simply channeling your focus towards what is actually happening." I watch the movies between turns to see what is happening. I do not need someone to channel my focus. I do that just fine all by myself. Again, David, I appreciate your opinion, I just happen to think that I know better than you when it comes to how information should be presented to me, specifically. Respectfully, Land

Germanboy, My intent was not to offend. (My intent is to get to 30 posts and be a real member--but I digress). My apologies, I will refrain from throwing gasoline on any fires I might see. I believe that perhaps we may agree more than we disagree. There are still problems with your "use" argument. The way financial information is used has not changed. People use it to make financial decisions. True, the information is much easier to come by, that just means that more people are able to access it and actually profit from it. They aren't using it in a different way if they couldn't use it before. If they could use it before and chose NOT to do so, that does not mean the way they used it changed. It only means they changed their mind about making the necessary effort to do so. (Keep in mind that in the daytrading example, the financial cost of trading stocks, daytrading or otherwise, also impacted the numbers of people actually participating.) The library example is exactly the same. The information is available for research, whether it is used at all is the question, not how it is used. You are correct, a catalog ensures that a library is more efficient and easy to use. It does not change the way the information contained in it is used. Frankly speaking, libraries are manageable chunks of books spread out throughout nations/states/cities to make them easier to use. It's just a question of scale. At what point does it not make sense to break it down further. Back to CM though. You want people to get down and dirty with their troops. That is not the issue. I do that anyway--you have to for line of sight and terrain reasons. I think we still come back to ease of access to information that is already available. Any CM player that tried to play straight from a roster would be soundly defeated by the TacAI, much less a human opponent if they did not use it as simply another tool to manage their resources within the game. Will a roster keep me from getting down in the trenches to survey my troops position? No. Observe lines of sight? No. Ensure cooperation between different units? No. Why would it hinder the newer players? Must we assume that all the new players will be idiots? I think not. It comes down to ease of use. You think it helps the game to hinder the ease of use of the information presented in it. I believe it hurts the game. We are both entitled to our opinions. I enjoy Combat Mission. Please hear me on this one. I respect Steve and Charles immensely. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them on everything. Does anyone believe that they aren't in the business of selling games. I think we can safely say that if they sold no games at all they would not continue to operate solely for the love of producing great wargames. I do not ask them to appeal to the LCD, only for a simple tool to make what they have created that much easier to use. Is it too much to ask? I don't think so. Will it take away from CM2's development? Not if it is something that will be incorporated in the new game. [This message has been edited by fdiskboy (edited 08-08-2000).]

Germanboy, you say, "The way you access information has a huge bearing on the way you use it in your dealings with reality or a game." Can you give me an example of how the way you access information has a huge bearing on the way you use it. More specifically, elaborate on your assertion that a library without a catalogue is just useless books. That is a fallacious argument. The books remain useful, just more difficult to access. The information in them remains useful, again access to them in a timely manner is hampered. Let me give you an example. You may research Tiger tanks to your heart's content on the internet in a matter of minutes, or search out books on the subject in the library in hours or days. The information you glean is still perfectly relevant and will consist usually of the same facts and figures, but the way in which you gathered the information is irrelevant unless you are concerned with the time it took you to compile it. I was actually attempting a bit of humor to lighten what is becoming, even for me, a tiresome discussion. (It's a joke, son, a joke.--Foghorn Leghorn) I will warn though that building a logical house of cards usually results in hurricane warnings. Was that more helpful? Respectfully. --One more thing. The internet has changed our society, you are correct, but only because it made information exchange EASIER and FASTER. [This message has been edited by fdiskboy (edited 08-08-2000).]

Germanyboy, It seems that logic isn't your strongpoint either... *puts on his flame-retardent fire-fighting suit and readies himself for the coming flames*

David, Once again, you are assuming that we are just alike. I would NOT use a roster in such a fashion. And I can think of other worthwhile uses. For instance, I would like to find my arty spotter...pop up the roster, select him, issue orders, voila, that's it. Once I select the FO and center on him, I might choose to work with the units in his vicinity before returning to the roster again. Just because you can't think of any worthwhile uses does not an argument make. There are those of us who are very creative....

David, Please add "In my opinion" to each of your statements. Providing the same information in a roster ALREADY available by cycling through your units with +/- changes the game how? That, unless I am confused by the plain English here, is all that is requested. Please include specifics on what exactly would be changed OTHER than your personal preferences which are already noted. Respectfully

Tiger, If you had purchased the game for me, then perhaps your opinion on "ruining the game" would be more important to me. I respect your opinion, even though you think my opinion makes me "lazy". You might consider eliminating the personal attacks whether intended or no and focus on the actual opinions.

These arguments always intrigue me. It's similar to the Aliens-v-Predator save game argument. Those who want it think it'll help them play the game their way. Those who don't want it say it's not the way they think the game should be played. Why is it that we as gamers insist that we know the best way for other gamers to play their games? I for one would like to see a roster: for the same reasons that I like unlimited save game opportunities. They save me time, and my limited free time is precious to me. The answer is easy. Implement the feature. Those who wish to use it may; those who dislike it may avoid it like the plague. Why would someone hold it against another if they did want to use it? Does it make them, as some have suggested, an inferior or less skillful player?? Perhaps. Should that matter? I would say not. It gives those who oppose the "roster" a chance to revel in your superiority and flog them mercilessly through PBEM. Either way, my opinion remains just that. Thoughts? Comments? Family secrets?

I'm not trying to start a flamewar here, but I don't think "masterpiece" is the correct term for Hitler's book. I can think of several others that might be more appropriate.