Los

That's a bug which hopefully will be fixed. Los

BTW re: Tanks crushing infnatry and it being a myth. I am in possesion of Panzer Marsch which is a compilition of among other things a few german Training films shot during the war. One covers the defense of tanks against infantry (when they are without infantry support) and covers running over and crushing infantry positions, showing specifically how it's done. BTW re: Sajer and real or not, I kinda believe he's real. It's not enough that he got details wrong in his story. Some dickwad historian notwithstanding. I'll tell you myself that I have been in the army for 22 years, and long before that I was into military history and wargaming. I have been very much attuned to everything I did, tactics, history, blah blah blah. I'm also here to tell you that there is a bunch of stuff that I am occasionally hard pressed to remember all the details from the early years of my own career including stuff like names, unit designations (not mine but units I've worked with), TOEs and OOBs of various units, spoecifics of deployments, and what not. I didn't keep the meticulous notes that I did later in my career. Sure I can remember with excrutiating details various incidents and anecdotes but if I had to write a detailed history of say some of the operations I was involved in, I'd no doubt get stuff wrong even major things. (AT the time I was worried about getting the job done and staying alive) And with a lot of vietnam vets I know (there's still four left in my unit), it's the same way. SO it doesn't surprise me that a guy writing after the war, who probably wasn't even into things military but a regular draftee would have a hard time remebering some details even if he could tell you how many bubbles of blood frothed out of his best friends ernst shattered jaw in the long hour or two it took him to die. Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 11-07-99).]

Well in real life even though I have a map even of very detailed scale, it's difficult and time consuming to figure out exact LOS unless I actualy go out here and see for myself. (It can be done using a topo map, a pencil and a protractor and a piece of paper but nobody is going to do that in battle.) This is very much a real world dillema, I can tell your sqaud to crawl fifty meters over there and you get there and low and behold there's something in the way and you have to readjust another ten meters. You already have the ability (I use it) to press key one and get down to gruts eye view and walk to the exact place you want to go to and look around and see for yourself. That's more than youw ould be able to do in real life and should be fine. Los

RE: Company Commanders... I don't know if PLs derive any benefit for being in proximity of CO. HHWoever if you have a sqaud from 1st platoon with 2d platoon, the command line still goes back to 1st platoon regardless of how far away it is while if the CO is in the vicinity the squad will trace itself to the CO first. This is a good thing for several reasons: 1. As mentioned above the CO can repalce a pltoon HQ if it's wiped out. 2. Platoons can detach squads to the CO to form a reserve which essentially gives you an additional manuever element. Also COs are good for following behind the assault. If platoon 1 and 2 are moving/running across open ground to someplace and one or two sqauds go to ground or panic and hea dto teh rear you do not want to interrupt the momentum of the attack to stop and collect them with the PLs. But the CO following behind can rally and bring those squads back up to their platoon or do whatever with them. A very vital function. Los

There is definately somthing odd about smoke missions I've sent off some stuff to BTS about it so I'm sure they'll look into it. It nly takes a few seconds of fire to spread map all over the map and even off the edges. Regarding seeing smoke in a differnt format: I know a lot of us are used to seeing such beautiful smoke on things like unreal/Q3, PE, or some flight sims. One problem, I imagine is the sheer size of CM's 3d environment. It's easy to be lulled into a false sense about it since most of the game is played at a high level where the figures look like miniatures on a small board. Your average Quake level or Half life/Unreal level would take up what? About 100 0r 200x200 meters on a CM map. You can imagine the horsepower which would be required for true smoke (hey I want it too, but...well?) RE: Engineers yes they can carry and use satchel charges (you can even give them to regular sqauds. Los

I've had some odd experiences similar to yours and sent it up he food chain so they should be looking at it. Los

D'OHHHHHH!!!! (Not the first time I overlooked something obvious) Los

BDW says... "I guess the only suggestion I really stand by is the terrain colors. In real life I can judge elevation much better than in CM. I don't think I am Color-blind, either. I just have a real hard time making out the changes in elevation - no matter which camera position I use." I must be misinterpreting what you are trying to say, but in real life, I don't ahve a view of the terrain tat is 100 meters up in teh air, my view of the terrain is down there where the one key is and this view leaves nothing up to the imagination what I can and cannot see. And when i am 100m up in the air, such as when we are inserting via helicopter or hanging in a chute, whatever, it si very difficult at time sto make out differnces in terrain elevation and what not based on visula cues. of course this depends on a lot of thing, most definately lighting angle etc. What I would like to see is more shading or the graphics engine taking into account position of sun and casting shadows on the terrain from other terrain. Biut this discussin was had about a month ago and it's very difficult to do. Scarhead says: "If I have a FO calling arty, he should be able to move around a bit trying to get a view to his arty target. It is a bit strange if you order fire on an area, then run into position to spot and find you just sit behind a tree without LOS - 2 metres to the right you would have had LOS and the same amount of cover." I think I understand your point, but speaking as someone who has called in real life artillery (and airstrikes) a number of times there's a few observations (no pun intended): 1. When you are calling in artillery (as it is modelled in CM, which is observed fire only) , you have to get into position first, then call the stuff in and observe. Once the rounds are inbound you don't get up and move around. You should have already found the best spot to call in the arty and sit there and do it. 2. You do however have the ability to call in the big stuff on something you can't directly observe and this leads to more inaccurate fire which is as it should be. If I was to make one arty recommendation it would be to allow the scenario designer to purchase TRPs, that would somehow improve the accuracy and more importantly the response time for called fire, even on non observed targets. "I do not think a real life commander will tell his unit to exactly move to coordinates x, y," That's correct, company and platoon commanders normally give movement commands based on general terrain features (i.e. Move to the edge of that treeline and overwatch from there.) WHile squad leaders say "Joe get down behind that rock and face to the rear" or "Bill place the BAR hill and I want you to cover down that trail." However normally on D or even in O situations the PL will pay careful attention to where his crew served weapons are placed and what they're supposed to shoot at. Though unless he is exactly colocated with one of them, once the fight starts he worries about the bigger picture and targetting is left up to crew leaders/team leaders. Los

The ggod thing would be, that if you have the game set to command perspective only, then there is also a bino command (A new view key, say 6 or 7.) Since we are in a 3d environment where we should be able to zoom without to many technical difficulties. And from the bino view you could also give commands. Los

It's alo running well on my Compaq P2 366 with a 4mb S3 card on active matrix. Nice to know I can be refighting WW2 while the guy next to me on the plane is reading the wallstreet journal or some somesuch nosense. Los P.S> Can you guys make a palm pilot version?

Settle down Guachi, you might knock something over! Your particular point about highlighting what units your squad already has LOS to is not so bad, but witness others in this thread: 1."when you select a unit, you can press a key that highlights all the enemy units that have a LOS to your unit." That's BS. SO...any unit that can see me is automagically given away? I wish we had that feature in real life. As far as how to help you judge LOS, I don't know what to tell you. The Mark One eyeball usually works pretty well, then from there if I need to make a LOS check I do. When I position units somewhere (say on D) I make LOS checks to the terrain around them, IDing deadspace and whatnot. They're there to cover a certain piece of ground anyone in there after that gets blasted. I don't feel the need to make LOS checks with all my units all the time to see if they should be shooting something. My units are moving or firing to achieve some specific purpose like to support an assault or breakthrough at some point etc. Nor do I feel that I have to have my units firing all the time at whatever they can see just because they can. And usually they do fine shooting on their own without me having to hold their hands, but that's through proper positioning. Sorry if the interface is too cludgy, or that you have to fight it, I haven't had that problem. If you are "to lazy" to target or the game is too boring, well...oh well? As far as what's the best view to check LOS? If you are going to do a LOS check with the actual tool then I prefer to do it from a 2 or 3 key three-quarter view. (Mostly becasue it's easier to select the target point that way especially in undulating terrain. I don't use the top down views becasue it's harder to see elevation that way. With the three quarter views then I can see _why_ something is being blocked. And that leads to learning about it and judging it on the fly next time. Still It's also a good idea, at times to get down, select the questioning unit, hit TAB and then key 1 and see things from their eyes, (though it's hard to use the LOS tool from this view.) This view is particularly useful when you want to check a covered and concealed route to or from somewhere, or view your defensive setup from the enemy's perspective, or check out dead space. This is the bread and butter or what real commanders do. Terrain analysis/appreciation and understandibng how terrain plays a vital role in tactics and in the friendly and enemy plans. More than any other game before, CM puts this key aspect where it is supposed to be: right at the forefront. On another front, Scott, regarding Command Delays, I'm not so sure now, that the current game has the command delays as you describe, I notice even units in the black or with their HQs wiped out can usually do something fairly quickly. I've sene pauses of 6, 13, and maybe 20 tops but that's no so bad really. But hopefully Fionnn or Steve knows more. Cheers... Los [This message has been edited by Los (edited 11-03-99).]

Steve, Is it just teh graphical representatin of eth smoke plum that blocks LOS or is there some radius around a smoke plum that effects LOS? Los (Not LOS)

"Don't you get enough of that in real life?" But I'm retiring!! Los

The one thing I would add is that you have the option to cycle first and formost through the unit commander and sub commanders then through each sub uit if necessary. then you should be able to call up a "Map" screen for a 2d overhead map. This reminds of of the post I made a few months back that i want an infantry platoon leader simulator. Los

I love the whole idea of a timer (though I imagine it would be difficult to implement in single play.) The time crunch (read: Turning inside your opponent's decision circle) is definately a main factor in battlefield success. it would diefinately seperate the wheat from the chaff. Los

"Ok...but is it really realistic for this unit to be chasing an AFV around on foot?In the open???" It sounds like an assumption that a tank should not fear infantry. The real point I got from your report was that a tank was sitting alone with no infantry support and was attacked by enemy infantry. Well trained infantry would view that situation as a perfect opportunity to take out the bastard and if they were able to move and attack it in the same turn then they certainly weren't too far away to make the attempt. Los

Just wanted to confirm that unit base color is something set in the scenario editor. I also agree with Michael that the whole LOS issues brought up on this thread are way to "gamey" and fly in the face of what CM is trying to do. Los

"To recap, I see two flaws: The absence of a "guard/overwatch" command..." Having been playing CM for like a month now I feel that this is a redundant command. Your units are essentially automatically on overwatch unless you give them specific targeting orders, or hide them, or give them movement orders. They will fire at targets of opportunity as they present themselves. Your positioning of the units and facing etc have a lot to do with what sectors they overwatch. Also if you are really hot and bothered about a certain area you can have them area target that area and sometimes your hunch may pay off. However two possible tweaks might be: 1. Specify type of unit to fire at (Would only really effect certain units since there aren't a lot of types outside of vehicles with multiple systems). 2. Specify a specific area to look at in overwatch. But then again you have to cut the mustard on how big that area is. And how strict to be with fire discipline. Still it hasn't been a big issue so far in my experience since any targeting faux paux the currently overwatching unit makes can be corrected in the next turn by giving it a real targeting command for the newly presented threat. (And if everything depends on that one shot that wasn't made then odds are there was probably something wrong with the overall plan or tactics in the first place. Los

I guess I'm sort of perplexed about this perceived lack of informtion. WHen I play I watch a replay once (maybe. Often I just fast forward through the whole thing to speed the game along until coming to critical junctures that are interesting to watch r where I require some info. I do put the bases on some times. I found the details/lables OK but too distracting so I turn them off. I can tell the general state of my platoons and squads by looking at them at a quick glance. Are they down to two figures? Are they in the prone whne I didn't put them there? (Means they are being supressed). When I see something that makes me sit up and take notic ethen I go over a click for detail. A quick point now that I'm thinking of it, I don't send troops crawling all over the map in different directions like one is want to do in a typical wargame or RTS. I keep them together like they are supposed to be ,generally massed in platoons within CC range so it's a million times easier to keep abreast of the times. Los

TY: I like one and two good idea Two would require remapping the window switching key to something else but hitting esc is intuitive for cancelling something anyway. (Lord knows a number of times I've had brain lock up and gotten into a click trap!) RE: 3 I believe it already does that. But if not it definately should be. Scott: regarding all the intricacies, I'm afraid I can't go into that since I don't know the specific math behind it,(as far as what factors effect to what agree how long the delays are.) I'm sure someone will bealong from BTS shortly. BDW regarding your number one item. (IDing LOS of units that can see you.) That's really info that you don't have in an actual engagement. You only know what you can see not who can see you so it would be gamey as heck. Perhaps an as an option though I doubt BTS would implement it. Los

Scott yes I believe you can you can. (I recall doing this in one scenario). But they have to be the same half sqauds that started the game. (Don't know if this is available in the demo).So 1st squad splits into team A and B and second squad splits into team A and B. AFter 1st squads team get done doing whatever they were doing you bring them back together within close range (base contact or something like that IIRC?)and I believe you get a join command. But if 1st and 2d squad each lost one team you can't recombine the survivors into one hybrid squad. I _think_ that's how it works. Los

BDW... re: unit bases: I believe that's a function of the unit editor, there are three possible colors for each side, but I may be wrong. I seem to remmeber being able to do that. point is if it's in the editor it'll be in the release. (colors I saw were bright green, red, blue, grey and a few others). RE: Terrain. Just IMO, it looks good as is. I like the fact that you have to get down to make a good terrain anlysis, that is as it should be. But again in the editor, you get a good 2d terrain elevation and other terrain type model. RE: H2H I agree with you, there's not much there to watch up close. But there's a lot of work that has to go into modelling stuff like that and it's late in the game. Hopefully after CM is released they will be able to continue to add models and animations after they hire another five or ten modellers/artisist based on all the green they'll be hauling in. As an aside, I very rarely go down and watch the models at the lowest levels. the only time I do that is if I want to see the terrain from that level. I like the miniatures tabletop view. Scott Re: command Delays, Again I'm not sure but you already get varying command delays depending upon some things, how far away you are from eth leader and whether or not you are in and out of CC radius. When you give a movement order you initially get a delay number for how long it will take for them to get moving. But perhaps you are looking for something else or I am explaining it wrong? Cheers... Los P.S> I haven't messed with the beta demo only the full beta so i don't know what you guys have access too re: the editor so my apolgies if I'm stating the obvious..

That's a great idea. Los

"many people in CM try to do too much in one turn, e.g. order suppression fire and an assault at the same time, in the same turn. That's why the TacAI might bother them when it suddenly retargets. When I am about to assault, I usually take at least one full turn of suppressive fire before assault, since I want to see some results first before leaving cover. Maybe that's one of the reasons?" It could very well be I suppose. I fall into the camp of not trying to do too much at once, Simplicity and The Objective are two prinicples that serve the gamer well in CM. In a sample attack scenarios I find normally these general phases: (Note YMMV) 1. Make a tentative plan and set my movement orders as such. If everything (by some freak of nature) goes according to plan, I won't have to do very much clicking for a number of turns. Unless the scenario specifies elsewise it's best not to spread everyone out all over the place to turn over every possible rock. This dissapates effort and resources. 2. Movement to contact and trying to ascertain where's the enemy, (weaknesses and strengths). Confirming or denying assumptions made during the planning phase. But again refer to One, you don't need to recon the whole map ala Red Alert or some RTS game looking for resources. Support your plan with your recon that's all. 3. Manouever forces into their support/ overwatch positions while the assault elements move to their best point to "cross that last 100 yards" if there's isn't concealment all the way to the target. (VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: The assault elements should be kept out of harm's way as much as possible during the movement into positions. They will get hammered soon enough when the time comes so the fresher, more motivated and more intact they are when the time comes, the better.) 4. Suppress: Determine which targets are the ones that merit the most attention. I'm not going to try and blast every available enemy target on the board. That dissapates the effectiveness of your massed fires. Lets say there are four enemy units (that I know of) which can possibley see my assault force as I cross open ground, but one or two are 6-700 meters away. Well I'll concentrate most of my fire at those which can bring effective fire. Note also if you have arty or bn mortars then use the smoke that's what it's there for. If you use those valuable fires to wearly they won't be availabe when you need them the most.(Side note: Ammo consumption and concerns about it are one of the many things I love about CM. Keep a close eye on critical weapons such as mortars and bazookas etc. which have only a few rounds. Wasting fire early in the game (trying to do too much) only bites you in the ass later. To this end choose manuevering around enemy fire early instead of suppressing it (If possible). 5. Assault: AFter a few turns or at least one full turn of fire RUN their asses up to whatever cover is available near the OBJ (Or right at it if it feels right). provided that you are supressing the enemy properly they will make it in a good enough state to get the job done.! BTW save those 50-60mm compnay mortars for that last whirlwind of firepower on the OBJ before they jump off. (NOTE: From a defender's point of view you cans ee why it is important to keep some key weapons/forces hidden if possible, even if it means out of LOS until late in the game AND to keep a reserve to counterattack the Obj if necessary.) 6. Consolidate: Once at the OBJ (if you take it) consolidate and reorg your D. Be ready for counterattack. Bring up other forces if you can. Point is, try to do less, have a single objective (this doesn't mean a single victory location, but one goal) and conserve the strength and ammunition for when you will need it the most. And of course the standard caveat: these are general guidelines which can be what-iffed in any given situation, they should be food for thought. Cheers... Los

OK Ok I have to tell my POW story one more time now that my gag is semi removed. There I was...(as all good war stories should start) Late in scenario X the German defense is crumbling. Two flanking platoons come over a ridge and spot a number of Germans surrendering. We sweep into their positions, collect them up and send them to the rear. Across a field is another german squad with its hands up. A platoon moves forward towards them. Froma a few hundred meters away some enterprising German takes a pot shot at the advancing Americans. Suspecting a trick, two whole platoons open up on the Surrendering germans in front of them! The panicked germans make a run for it, 15 seconds later they stop and put up their hands again. Another fusilade cuts more down. Now they are desperately running for the edge of the map though all are cut down before they make it. I couldn't have imagined a more reaslitic situation. Los p.s. What with all the heavy discussion going on I thought I'd lighten things up.