137th Gebirg

Malvoisin - There's actually an interesting story behind that. I'm friends with quite a few board-and-counter-based wargamers, and Price of Freedom actually did quite well. It was extremely popular, in fact, and was among the best-sellers at the local shops (didn't save West End Games from going Chapter 11, unfortunately). Rumor has it that because it was a game about the formation and organization of an insurrection within the United States against a "Communist-Occupied" Federal Government led to its eventual removal from shelves by West End with little or no explanation as to why. Even the internet has little-to-no info on this game, other than the fact that it merely existed at one time many years ago. With such a lack of information, obviously the conspiracy theories flew. It did sound like it touched a nerve somewhere...some of the wargames out there arguably do wonders at teaching their players advanced military tactics. I do like the Irish/Brit scenario though. Bein' a good Scotsman m'self, I'd love to see the Anglish get a good pasting on the screen by our Celtic brothers. Remember Culloden!

Patrick, you need to relax a little, guy. The realism of a Red Dawn scenario was never meant to be an issue. Only the potential for guerilla warfare of a native population on an invading agressor in a hypothetical scenario. Who bloody cares if it happened or not? Even one of the former Soviet Union's generals (name eludes me - I'll try to find it later this week) stated that there was never a plan on the books for a full-scale conventional American invasion, due to what he called "your Second Ammendment" (a little shot in the arm for the anti-gunners out there - without the 2A, we'd all be speaking Russian, maybe?). All the Billy-bobs in the mountains with their daddy's shotgun. Fine, perhaps an Afghanistan-based game would fit a little more into that domain of historical realism to satisfy those lacking of imagination.

I know this would be far from your (BTS) minds right now, knowing how full a plate you all have, but I've always hoped to see some kind of Red-Dawn/Amerika-style scenario in a wargame. Granted, the cold war is over, but the concept is rich with the potential of guerilla warfare and modern tactics and equipment. Similar along the Viet Nam threads I've seen posted here, but with your existing models for European terrain (as opposed to the drudgery of building jungle models), which could be reused to simulate the various parts of America in which the conflict "occurred". The only TO&E you'd really need to worry about is on the Soviet side (which, I understand, is quite well documented). For the guerillas, anything and everything they can find. Just an idea...

Fionn - agree whole-heartedly. Well said. Too many times have people lumped the Waffen-SS (as you say, fanatical fighters) in with the Algemeine-SS (the true masters of the death camps) as being just "SS" and therefore, hard-core Nazi fascists...or at least, until Malmedy :-[ [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-23-99).]

I just placed an advance order of CM (Mac version) with an address that will change come September. I'm conocerned with the possibility that the game won't be released until after that (I'm hoping that the late summer proposed release time still holds, in which case this doesn't matter). In the event that CM does come out later than late summer, who do I email to make a change of delivery address? Thanks much...

I'd like to echo some sentiments here on this thread (and yes, Herr Oberst, it is a VERY sticky wicket). <SOAPBOX> Yes, six to seven million Jews were killed in the Haulocaust and that is a TERRIBLE thing. Don't let ANYONE say otherwise. However, Gypsys, captured soldiers (from both fronts), Freemasons, the mentally and physically disabled, and homosexuals also fell to the National Socialist sword. In addition, around FIFTY MILLION Russians died under the Stalinist dictatorship (to elaborate on Herr Oberst's comment). Please do not misunderstand...this is CERTAINLY not to belittle the strife that the Jews went through, but rather to ponder and pause for serious reflection on the bigger picture of the crimes committed by more than just one regime, and the pain and suffering experienced by more than just one victim. It is unfortunate that nobody has thought to build a museum (or much less a monument or memorial) to the victimization that other groups were forced to endure. To quote the G.I. soldiers in Saving Private Ryan: "Don't shoot them. Let 'em BURN!" How very appropriate, but in a slightly different way than is most immediately evident. "Nicht Shiessen!"...BANG!..."Who the h*ll is Nick Sheezen?" </SOAPBOX> [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-23-99).]

Thanks much, Ben. Appreciate it

Forgive my ignorance, but where are these QuickTime videos that people speak of? I've gone to the downloads section, and I've seen some game demo executables, patches, and other things, but no movies. I'd be very interested in seeing them if I could find them. Any help appreicated.

Thanks much for the kind words. As I had mentioned in a previous post, the book entitled "Hitler's Mountain Troops" by James Lucas may possess the information you seek. Amazon.com shows it to be out of print, but it can be found at most re-enactment sutleries and flea-markets. I know, I've seen it dozens of times. I'll look for a copy the next time I go to an event. The other thing you might want to check on is either the Department of Defense or the National Archives for TO&E's of old adversaries. I'm pretty sure that, following each major conflict, the military intelligence gathered in after-action-reviews is compiled and placed in an archive somewhere. The Library of Congress may be another good place to start. They are online with full access to their directories via the web at www.loc.gov. I've noticed from other posts that once Combat Mission is out, you plan on doing an Eastern Front version. I think I would understand if you didn't want to add Gebirgs in the current CM under development, as they weren't all that prevalent at that time in place, but I would be _GREATLY_ disappointed if you neglected to add them to the Eastern Front campaigns [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-22-99).]

<PRE> I hope this turns out...There is a lot of formatting going on here. This is going to somewhat overlap the info given in previous posts, but I believe I have some other info not covered, taken from 2 of my favorite books on the subject: "Weapons and Equipment of the German Mountain Troops in World War II" by Ronald Kaltenegger, and "German Mountain & Ski Troops 1939-45" by Gordon Williamson, Stephen Andrew, and Osprey Military Publishers. The authorized strength of a mountain division included the following: Mountain Soldiers - About 14,000 men - 5,500 to 6,000 animals - 1,500 horses - 4,300 pack animals - 550 mountain horses, most of which were used as pack animals - 1,400 vehicles (including cars and motorcycles) - 600 horse-drawn vehicles - NSU Opel Kettenkrad (tracked motorcycle) - Volkswagen car - Steyr A 1500 (kfz. 69) command vehicle - 3-ton Mercedes L3000 off-road light truck - 3-ton Opel Blitz medium truck Weapons: - 13,000 rifles - Karabiner 98(K) - G-43 semi-automatic rifle - MP-44 Sturmgewehr assault rifle - Gebirgskarabiner K33/40 - the mountain carbine I mentioned in a previous post - 2,200 pistols - P-08 (army) pistol - 500 machine guns - MG-34 - MG-42 - 416 light machine guns - MP-38 - MP-40 - 66 light mortars - 50mm Granatwerfer 36 - 44 medium mortars - 80mm Granatwerfer - not as good as the 50mm - ineffective on snow-covered terrain and on glaciers) - 81mm Granatwerfer - ?? heavy mortars - 120mm Granatwerfer - based on a Soviet design - 75 anti-tank rifles - ??? - 80 heavy machine guns - ??? - 16 light infantry guns - 75mm leichte Infanteriegeschuetz 18 - 4 heavy infantry guns - ??? - 39 anti-tank cannons - 37mm PAK (not good against T-34's) - 50mm PAK - 12 light anti-aircraft cannons - 20mm - 24 light mountain guns - 75mm Gebirgskanone 15 - 75mm Gebirgskanone 28 - 75mm Gebirgsschuetz 36 - 12 light field or mountain howitzers - 100mm Gebirgshaubitze 15 - 105 Feldhaubitze 18/40 (muzzle break) - 105mm Gebirgshaubitze 42 - 12 heavy field howitzers - 150mm Feldhaubitze 18 Mountain Divisions The Gebirgs fell in the following divisions: 1. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Hungary - 98th Gebirgsjager Regiment - 99th Gebirgsjager Regiment - 79th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 54th Panzerjager Abteilung - 54th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 54th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung * Renamed itself 1st Voks-Gebirgs-Division near the war's end 2. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Barbarosa, Western Front, Norway, Lapland, Saar, Moselle - a small group of 2nd Gebirgs - 136th Regiment, were accidentally caught up in the fighting in Normandy while they were on furlough, according to my Unit Commander - 136th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 137th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment (*That's us!*) - 111th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 67th Radfahrer Abteilung - 47th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 82nd Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 67th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 3. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Ukrane, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Upper Silensia - 138th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 139th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 112th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 68th Radfahr Abteilung - 48th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 83rd Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 68th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 4. Gebirgs-Division - Eastern Front, Yugoslavia, Novorossisk, Dnieper, Czechoslovakia - 13th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 91st Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 94th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 94th Radfahr Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 94th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 5. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Greece, Krete (Crete), Eastern Front, Lenningrad - 85th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 100th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 95th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 95th Radfahr Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 95th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 6. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Greece, Krete (Crete), Western Front, Norway, Eastern Front, Murmansk - 141st Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 143rd Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 118th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 157th Gebirgs-Kraftrad Abteilung - 157th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 91st Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 96th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 7. Gebirgs Division - Eastern Front, Western Front, Lapland, Norway - 144th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 206th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 82nd Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 99th Kraftrad Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Panzerjager Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 99th Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung 8. Gebirgs Division - Western Front, Lapland, Norway, Eastern Front - 142nd Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment - 144th Gebirgs-Infanterie Regiment (transferred?) - 124th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment 9. Gebirgs Division - Eastern Austria 188. Gebirgs Division - Balkans, Eastern Front 1. Ski-Jager-Division - Eastern Front, Czechoslovakia 6. SS-Gebirgs-Division "Nord" - Eastern Front, Western Front, Lapland, Norway, Denmark, Saarland, Bavaria - 11th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 12th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 6th SS-Panzerjager Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung - 6th SS-Flak Abteilung - 6th SS-Gebirgs-Aufklarungs Abteilung 7. SS-Gebirgs-Division "Prinz Eugen" - Eastern Front, Balkans, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Herzogovina, Italy, Yugoslavia - 13th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 14th SS-Gebirgsjager Regiment - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment - 7th SS-Panzerjager Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung - 7th SS-Flak Abteilung - 7th SS-Gebirgs-Aufklarungs Abteilung 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Handschar" - Eastern Front, Balkans, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzogovina - 27th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 28th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment der SS - 13th Waffen-Panzerjager Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Pionier Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Nachrichten Abteilung der SS - 13th Waffen-Flak Abteilung der SS - 13th SS-Aufklarungs Abteilung 21. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Skanderbeg" - Balkans, Albania - 50th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 51st Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS 23. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Kama" - Balkans, Croatia - 55th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 56th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS 24. Waffen-Gebirgs (Karstjager) Division Der SS - NE Italy, Eastern Front, Yugoslavia - 59th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 60th Waffen-Gebirgsjager Regiment der SS - 24th Gebirgs-Artillerie Regiment Higher Formations V SS-Gebirgskorps - Balkans IX SS-Gebirgskorps - Croatia, Hungary XV Gebirgskorps - Balkans XVIII Gebirgskorps - Austria, Poland, Balkans, Eastern Front - 3rd Gebirgs - 7th Gebirgs - 6th SS-Gebirgs "Nord" XIX Gebirgskorps - Norway and Eastern Front - 2nd Gebirgs XXI Gebirgskorps - Balkans, Albania, Yugoslavia, Eastern Front XXII Gebirgskorps - Norway and Eastern Front XXXVI Gebrigskorps - Poland, Norway, Eastern Front XLIX Gebirgskorps - Czechoslovakia, Balkans, Eastern Front LI Gebirgskorps - Stalingrad, Eastern Front, Norway Major Campaigns Poland - 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gebirgs Divisions Norway - 2nd and 3rd Gebirgs Divisions France - 1st and 6th Gebirgs Divisions Balkans (1941) - 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th Gebirgs Division Eastern Front - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Gebirgs Divisions and the 13th Waffen-Gebirgs-Division Der SS "Handschar", Western Front - 2nd Gebirgs Division, 6th SS-Gebirgs-Division "Nord" Balkans (late war) - 7th and 13th SS-Gebirgs-Divisions Hope this helps... </PRE> [This message has been edited by 137th Gebirg (edited 06-22-99).]

I can research that information and give you a more complete TO&E. From what I know, the rifle used was oftentimes a cut-down K-98 called a "Mountain Carbine" (along with standard-length K-98's, and MP-40's). The Mountain Carbine allowed for greater movement and flexibility while mountain climbing and, yes, skiing. The boots worn were not jack boots or standard combat boots (although in non-mountainous terrain these were used), but rather mountain boots with large, sharp hobnails in the soles. There were sets of steel gripping teeth that would latch on to the boots, acting as ice cletes (sp?). Double-sided winter parkas were used along with the standard feltgrau tunic - one side white for use as snow cammo, the other with the standard Vermacht zeltbahn-style cammo with the raindrop pattern. Panzer schreks (sp?) and fausts were common enough, as well as other standard Vermacht equipment that would be distributed to regular infantry units like, say, the Gross Deutschlanders. The Gebirg was considered something of a shock-troop. Not quite as "elite" as the SS, but not something to sneeze at, either. Orginized in slightly smaller numbers than a regular heavy infantry company, they were able to move faster and harder than most. On a quick side-note, the Gebirgs were the only units officially allowed to have facial hair. This was because of the cold climates they generally found themselves in, it helped to keep their faces warm. They were also more prone to wear their M-43 mutzes (soft cap), as opposed to a helmet, much like the Panzer commanders. They found using helmets less maneuverable in mountain regions (and clanky when bouncing around against mountain clefts), and most old photos you'll see of the Gebirgs have them wearing just the M-43's. A good book to read is "Hitler's Mountain Troops". The author escapes me, but it gives historical accounts on almost all the divisions, and would be a difinitive source on who was stationed where. I know this message is lengthy, but I hope it gives some insight on this not-so-widely-known group of soldiers.

Although the 137th/2nd wasn't at Normandy, there were other Gebirgs units present at the beaches and on the roads to Berlin. I'll have to do some more research. I believe the 6th SS Nord Gebirgsjagers division was prevalent around this area, but again, I'll have to check this one.

This is more of a question to the Battlefront people making the game: As a WWII re-enactor, I'm thrilled to see this kind of Point-of-view gaming. It's difficult to get a grasp on depth-of-field and line-of-site interpretations on all the other 2-dimensional map-based games out there. I also noticed that you'll be putting in less common units, along with the more controversial ones. I saw some screen grabs on some Waffen-SS troops, and heard mention of the Volksturm (sp?) units. I congratulate you on this, as many other game companies have sadly shyed (sp again?) away from using "Nazi-related" units in their games, playing stooge to the waves of political correctness that have permeated the industry. Close combat even removes the hakencreutz (or swastika as many people call it) from the Vermacht Standard used in various objective RP's. My question is this: Are there plans on including Gebirgsjagers (mountain troops) in the game as well. I haven't seen much mountainous terrain in any of the screen-grabs, but Gebrigs were pretty much in the forefront of many campaigns (Krete, Afrikakorps, Narvik, etc.) some of which I believe you are recreating in the game. My unit in particular is the 137th Gebirgsjagers, 2nd Mountain Division. I'd love to see some guys running around in the game from this unit, although I'll understand if you've already laid out the unit specs & haven't included every single little group involved in the war. Any insight on this? Thanks much.