aka_tom_w

Hi Rexford Keep reading those old accuracy threads and I hope you will keep posting here. New comments and insight into tank gunnery accuracy are always welcome. Its probably about time to start ANOTHER reallly long tank gunnery accuracy thread I sort of miss the old dead ones I used to participate in. The fact that Charles has made ANY changes at all to the chance to hit percentages in his algorythms really represents a substantial break through here, as he has been VERY reluctant in the past to change anything with respect to accuarcy and "chance to hit" probabilities in his equations. I do hope you will read all the responses from Steve and Charles in those previous threads I posted. I suspect that some time before Tuesday morning we will read something from Steve here. Please bear in mind Steve and Charles consider their calculations and algorythms to determine hits and penetration results in this game to be a trade secret. No actual numbers, formulas, calculations, or algorythms have ever been publically released about exactly how tank gunnery really works in his calculations. I respect their decision in this matter. So instead we all do little tank gunnery range "experiments" to try to get to the bottom of what's really in those equations and algorythms. Its somewhat of an elusive quest to get to the heart of how tank gunnery is coded in this game by observing the results of gunnery range tests, and recording those results and sharing them here with others who are equally curious, there are only a handful of us . It is my opinion that there has been a slight modification of some of the chance to hit percentages for some tanks in b24 as it is my opinion that tank gunnery at ranges less than 500m is now more accurate then it was before the release of b24. This is the first time in 5 patches and two public beta updates there was ever ANY mention of altering or updating ANY gunnery accuracy or chance to hit percentages or data. It is my conclusion that the game is now MORE fun because of this. I wish I could comment and say it is now more realistic, but I really have no experience or knowledge to make such a statement or claim. But I can say with confidence that more tanks brewing up quicker as a result of more first shot hits is MORE FUN! -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-31-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-01-2001).]

OK.... I would like to comment here as well. What Allied factor (unit, weapon whatever?) counter balances the German Panzerfaust? Those Damn things are plentiful and everybody and their brother as at least one or two of them. I Prefer playing the Allies, and I like the British, but in a tight fight or an "even" Meeting engagement I think the balance falls slightly in favour of the Germans because of the abundance of 'fausts? I can see this issue from all sides. Perhaps the Allies units are over priced? Steve and Charles are CLEARLY on record as stating that they are not. But the german tank killing ability with those short range 'fausts can be VERY irritating. But on the other hand Close assaulting tanks with German infantry with a few 'fausts in their back pocket sure is FUN!. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-31-2000).]

OK I admit I have not had time or found time to conduct some gunnery range tests with b24. I admit that my subjective opinion of (maybe) too many first shots hits could be, in error. I think that gunnery accuracy has changed. Perhaps it is MORE realistic now. Having looked at the results of MarkIV's tests, I must re-evaluate my opinion on this. MarkIV's tests look like there are still plenty of misses and I think that is a good thing. Rexford, We welcome your opinions and contribution to this discusion, and if I may, since you may not be aware of the history regarding this issue, I would like to suggest that you take some time (I mean this to help you with the background here) and read through these threads. Post's by John Waters and Steve and Charles are particularily relevant. There is a LONG history here of debate and discussion regarding gun acuracy and it has been VERY heated and detialed at times: If anyone one else know's of any other relevant threads that I have not cited below can you please post the link to that thread if I missed an important one for Rexford (or any one else new to this discussion here) to read. (this is a BIG one) http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009258.html (This one Started it all I think) http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/004572.html (this one, below, is HUGE about optics and long range accuracy, 24 pages long!! and somewhat recent, just before your time, I would say this thread is a MUST read for you ) http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011342.html more: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/009348.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/008896.html MarkIV, what conclusions do you draw from your test results? Do you feel there has been a noticable change in accuracy? do you think it is more realistic or less? -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-31-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panther131: Where did you get the interface skins aka tom w? They look great!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Deanco's Gunmetal interface, I love it. Mods from all over Starting with Gunslinger's toned down mods. I use every thing, some Panzertuppen houses, some Bergman. and some of Tigers vehicles. I have mixed and match them so much, I have lost track. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: No Tom see what happened was Charles & Steve got so sick of hearing us go on about LR gunnerey models that they decided to get revenge on us by doing the oposite ..... Regards, John Waters <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi John Yes, I can see that. I have not tested long range accuracy in b24, but at ranges less than 500 m, it seems ALL tanks are now REALLY accurate. It is VERY noticable in my opinion. I'm surprised more people have not commented on it. My experience playing here with Reg crews show they can now hit most non hull down targets, up to 90% of the time with their first shot. I think that may be a tad generous for Reg crews. But I could easily see those kind of Odds or better for Elite tanks crews. We'll see what Charles has to say when he returns. -tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panther131: 24 shermans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "VERY good , you win a cookie" you can count them here: [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo: Cheating at Chance Encounter? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No Cheating I should have posted a Spolier alert. sorry This is Rune's latest Chance Encounter 2 and its FUN! -tom w

There are no dead Sherms behind the victory flags, they are all in front of the flags. Some are smoking some are not. -tom w

Hi How many Dead Sherms can you spot? All killed at ranges less than 550 m, most with first shot hits by two Reg hull Down Panthers. Obviously anything without a green base is dead. One Sherm shows the base of its recently bailed crew close to it but its flaming so its not that hard to spot. -tom w

Hi Count the dead Sherms All killed at ranges less than 550 m most with first shot hits by two Reg hull Down Panthers. How many are there? [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-30-2000).] [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-30-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rexford: Should all shots hit at 200 meters? At 100 meters? At 500 meters? Never have 100% accuracy? Our calculations seem to be missing something. Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I completely trust Steve and Charles when they tell us that there are NO calculations or chance to hit odds or chance to DO anything in CM that is set to 100% for anything. They have been very clear in the past that no algorythms or chance to hit calculations ever equal a 100% result. MarkIV points out that tanks still miss, I played two TCP/IP tank battles yesterday for about a total of 9 to 10 playing hours, and I did see the odd miss against fully exposed targets less then 500 meters, so I know the chance to hit is not 100% but the first shot chance to hit is IMHO now alot higher, but it is not 100% -tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: Wednesday the 27th in b24.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK We have found agreement on these kinds of issues in the past, so please don't consider this a confrontational opinion, perhaps just an inquiry, but don't you think, (if you think back to those Stugs and Sherms missing each other in the Chance Encounter Demo scenario) that ALL tanks now target and hit with ALOT more accuracy in b24? (on their FIRST shot) I'm wondering (I could be wrong) if the accuarcy for all tanks at less than 500 m may now be unrealistically high? OR Charles may fixed it and it is just right now? But I would say Reg tank crews a ranges less than 500 m are hitting in the 90-95% range now on their FIRST shot. So I suspect they never miss their second shot, and I suspect Vet Crack and Elite (especially) are now DEADLY accurate on their first shot. Maybe this is more real? I don't know, but I would suggest the tank gunnery accuracy at less than 500 m is noticably different in b24 than it was before. Anyone else? Comments? -tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV: I have certainly had tanks, including those you mention, miss at ranges well under 500m and even under 100m. I had a Mk IV miss a Sherman under 200m in a tcp/ip game last week, and the M4 was broadside.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Recently? In b24? If you can you should try Rune's Chance Encounter 2 And see how the tank gunnery accuracy has changed dramatically at ranges less than 500 meters since the b24 patch release. -tom w

I was begin to wonder if I was the ONLY one concerned about this.. Here are the results of an earlier post regarding this issue: from the readme or b24: "- Gunnery accuracy equations modified slightly to permit greater accuracy at point-blank ranges." I have played b24 as much as possible since it's release. I have enjoyed it VERY much. It is stable and it is fun. Does anyone here know what Charles means when he says "at point-blank ranges"? I have now played a good many tank battles where the average range was 500 meters or less, and I would say, in my experience, there is a greater chance to hit modeled now for tank gunners. I like it, and I think it is noticable, reg, vet, Crack, and Elite tank crews now hardily EVER miss even their first shot at against NON hull down targets at less than 500 meters. Has any one else noticed this increased accruacy? Getting the first shot off quick now REALLY counts for something. AND with the additional use of the Allied Tungsten hyper shot, tank battles at less then 500 meters, seem ALOT deadly than before! I have no actual experience of whether or not this is now MORE realistic or less realistic, but in my own (limited) personal opinion, this NEW short range accuracy tweak, makes the game, and targeting aquisition, behave ALOT more like the accuracy charts of weapons tested at gunnery ranges, that have been mentioned in those two (very lengthy) Long range gunnery accuracy threads. I sort of like the way the tank gunnery accuracy "feels" now. But may now be unrealistically accurate? It does however make you even MORE careful with your tanks because you can't count on the likely hood of your oppenent firing a first shot miss that way it used to be. Getting that first shot off quickly seems ALOT more urgent now, making Vet Crack and Elite tanks crews EVEN more valuable! Thanks again! -tom w (NOTE) You'll notice I did NOT once use the phrase "superior gunnery optics" in the above comment. (edited here from previous original complimentary post) IP: Logged aka_tom_w Member posted 12-27-2000 03:28 PM Steve Replies: IP: Logged Big Time Software Moderator posted 12-27-2000 04:35 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tom, I think the tweak was only for VERY close range shots. Far closer than 500m. Something like less than 100m is my guess. Charles is out of town for a couple more days so I can't say for sure. Steve IP: Logged aka_tom_w Member posted 12-27-2000 05:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hi Steve, Thanks for the prompt reply. I may have been mistaken or all the tanks firing were just getting lucky, but in the 300 to 500 meter range ALL tanks seem to be getting alot more hits than they used to, lately. I notice that no one is posting to complain about how often their tanks are firing and missing several shots in a row. Maybe we have all just been getting lucky hits lately? Thanks again -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-27-2000).] IP: Logged aka_tom_w Member posted 12-29-2000 07:26 PM Remember the days of playing Chance Encounter with 3 Stugs vs 5 Sherms and you could not BUY a hit, as the tanks would miss two and three times in a row? Anyone remember those days? Well they are GONE now, for better or worse there are now ALOT more first shot hits at ranges less then 500 meters. Try it and see. Tanks now RARELY if EVER miss at ranges less than 500 meters, I woud say the game is now MUCH more leathal in this respect than it ever was. -tom w

Just watch Kelly's Heros and you will know ALL about how air support works in the ETO in WWII. IF you have not watched Kelly's Heroes it is an unofficial prerequisite for posting here So go out and rent it and watch it and memorize it! -tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joker: Do you mean the download from the site? Patch v1.05? I have downloaded that file, but still can't play by TCP/IP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> see the thread at the TOP of the list click the link for mac or Windoze which ever applies. Then read the read me -tom w

This one (bump) is for Joker

"They're Just a bunch of cheese eating Surrender Monkeys!" Works best in thick Scottish accent I understand. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-29-2000).]

bump

Sorry for the self serving bump BUT Remember the days of playing Chance Encounter with 3 Stugs vs 5 Sherms and you could not BUY a hit, as the tanks would miss two and three times in a row? Anyone remember those days? Well they are GONE now, for better or worse there are now ALOT more first shot hits at ranges less then 500 meters. Try it and see. Tanks now rarely miss at ranges less than 500 meters, I woud say the game is now MUCH more leathal in this respect than it ever was. -tom w

I must admit that in a recent TCP/IP match I was called to step away from the computer for an urgent phone call, fortunatly I had just finished giving LONG and detailed orders to all my units, I quickly requested a pause and then stepped away, withnout seeing the result. (True Story) We were on a two minute timer and my opponent did not know how to "pause" so the timer kept going and all my units kept on following my orders in my abense and after every 2 minutes the game went on without me. Guess what ? I come back about 12 -13 minutes later, about 5 turns have gone by and my opponent is ready to surrender. so if you deny a request to pause the game it will go ON anyway. And you basically play against the Tac AI with the last orders they were given. ALSO if you have the luxury of two computers you can play your self head to head via tcp/ip and give both sides LONG detailed standing orders then, having already set the timer to 1 minute turns, stand back and watch the two computers play themselves. I did it once just for fun. the game via tcp/ip goes on and crunches the turn FAITHFULLY every minute, rain or shine, winning or loosing, it doesn't care, but like the say in Show biz, the Show must go on. So Moral of the story.... Play TCP/IP and deny all pause requestes, ( ok only deny unreasonable pause requests ) the game will go one until you win or he surrenders. Just my thoughts -tom w

Hi Dogface I saw your screen shots. VERY pretty mods Who's tree's are you using? they are very nicely done. -tom w

To be fair to this issue, the unit roster was ONE of the first things several of my other wargaming buddies who play other wargames but had not seen CM yet wanted the first time they played. It seems the unit roster has come to be "expected" in this kind of game, as it seems fairly standard in other games, but since MOST of those "other" games Like Steel Panthers are PC only games have have no Mac counter part, I have never become accustomed to the use of the unit roster. While I like the game the way it is, I can easily agree that a unit roster would come REALLY handy while playing TCP/IP head to head games under a short tight time limit. I can, however, wait until CM2 for this possible feature without any problems at all.

I have been playing and commenting, (ok, at times RANTING) about this game since the days last year of the Beta Demo while the game was still in development. So I figured by now I had seen just about EVERY cool feature and indepth detail this game could reveal. BUT NO! I have never seen this before, Check this out! (Now THIS is REAL attention to Detail, it really made me think this game is so FULL and RICH with detail I was moved to post here ) Yesterday I was play a QB on a map with REALLY large hills, the only Victory Flag was at the summit of the biggest hill on the map and I was sure the OPFOR was just on the other side of the hill but I could not see any of them, I was the germans and there were sound contacts of light armour from that general direction. So I let loose with my 81 mm mortors, without LOS, via the spotter, and a few minutes later its starts raining death down the summit area and the area behind the summit that I have NO LOS to. NOW get this, after about 2 minuts of shelling in the general direction of those previous sound contacts, I can see a column of black billowing smoke, SO from my omniscient commander view I go over there and check it out, well there NOTHING that I can see (because none of my units have LOS to that area of the ground)that is casuing the smoke, it just looks like the ground is billowing smoke, but I must of nailed something good with one of those mortar rounds. SO my units can spot the smoke column but NOT the cause of the smoke, I thought this was REALLY cool! Later close inspection (via real LOS) revealed I got lucky and dropped one into a Half Track and Brewed it up! VERY cool Feature, I'm still impressed that there are new features like this that are still surprising me. -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-29-2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hans: Difference between the demo and the real game? Consider one the kiss and the other the honeymoon <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Very Nice Hans, Yes and if I may add, the demo is like a kiss at a high school prom and the full game is like a honeymoon with a centerfold nymphomaniac that owns a lingerie shop, and her father is LOADED and thinks you are the GREATEST guy his daugher has ever met. -tom w