Version 1.01.15821

[rich12545]

Still being snarky I see. You really aren't capable of carrying on a normal conversation.

I can't figure you out.

The AI has a serious problem. It's not just me saying that. Brit has said the AI has a problem. He promised to fix it. He has now broken his promise and, essentially, told his customers screw you, this didn't work out the way I hoped, so you can all go jump in the lake.

Of course I understand Brit is no longer able to work on this game full time. He needs to make a living. That's fine. I completely understand. But there's nothing keeping him from working on it in his spare time. In a few weeks or a few months he could keep his promise and fix the AI.

Yet you and a few others don't like that. Don't you think the AI has a problem? How can you think that when Brit said it does? And Brit should know, right?

You don't want Brit to fix the problem? For what reason? Why not?

And all you do is make snarky comments.

[Slaver]

No, the AI is not a significant problem! You would not be able to win if it was.

But it appears you have a serious problem. There is no point in ever reading any of your posts.

[rich12545]

The AI has a serious problem. It's not just me saying that. Brit has said the AI has a problem. He promised to fix it. He has now broken his promise and, essentially, told his customers screw you, this didn't work out the way I hoped, so you can all go jump in the lake.

Of course I understand Brit is no longer able to work on this game full time. He needs to make a living. That's fine. I completely understand. But there's nothing keeping him from working on it in his spare time. In a few weeks or a few months he could keep his promise and fix the AI.

Yet you and a few others don't like that. Don't you think the AI has a problem? How can you think that when Brit said it does? And Brit should know, right?

You don't want Brit to fix the problem? For what reason? Why not?

Hey slaver, you're just like pzgndr. The only thing you're capable of is making snarky remarks.

What part of the above don't you understand?

BRIT said the AI has a problem. Do you understand that?

It was significant enough that he said he would fix it.

Apparently you two guys aren't capable of understanding anything. At least anything that's written in English.

[Scott_WAR]

rich, just like a parent with young children, you have to accept the fact that sometimes people are completely unable or unwilling to comprehend a concept. If it doesnt affect them it cant possibly affect or be important to anyone else..............

Brit HAS said the AI seeing everything is a problem and that he would like to fix it,....meaning IT IS A PROBLEM AND EVEN THE DEVELOPER KNOWS IT.

Just ignore those who would like to ignore what even Brit says about the game. He's the developer,....why would he know anything about the game he created alone...............

At this point its probaly best to just forget the game, but remember the developer, in order avoid his products in the future since we know he is willing to abandon a game before its fully completed. Which is really sad,....this game is 98% complete,.....and that 98% is really great work,...but that remaining 2% is too important to leave out and consider the game finished.

[rich12545]

Scott, I've just about gotten to that point. It's like talking to 10 year olds. It's a real shame though.

[Magitek]

It's actually uncommon for game AI to use actual fog of war.

As far as continuing to work on the game full-time, I think you'd understand and sympathize with my situation better if I explained what happened financially - and how much of the development cost I ended up taking as a loss. So, I'll post that information tomorrow.

There are so few games using true fog of war for the AI. I don't understand how anyone can contest this. If you played games for 20-30 years then you may want to revisit those titles; next to all of them are not using fog of war or intel properly.

I can't even remember the last game that didn't cheat in this fashion, many games might seem as if they don't know you're there, but often it's simply the AI not understanding that your incoming forces are a threat- it's just following it's goal.

The issue in EOS is slightly exaggerated due to the fact that its very transparent to player, with submarines, and how it engages the player in general.

I hope that Brit continues to work on the game from time to time, even with its lack of popularity/income. I would also really like to keep modding EOS.

Some suggestions for the future:

I wanted to expand the 1900-2030 rule set some more, but it's really difficult to create unique units and structures without overlapping existing units.

Might we see a few additional abilities for units?

Amphibious movement type.

Adding our own tags, like parachute/nuclear: I mainly want this so I can add units with unique icons.

Ability(and chance per turn) to subvert specific units. (all units with certain tag/modifier)

Research branching: one type of research prevents the other. (nuclear/green etc)

[pzgndr]

The question about the omniscient AI: I don't think it's feasible for me to get together an AI that's using real fog of war. It's something that's a real challenge to do, and getting it working properly would be quite a bit of work. And, by "working properly" I mean that the AI can compensate for this lack of knowledge with a much increased skill in playing the game.

This comment from Brit leads me to believe the AI in EOS never used FOW, so it's not like Brit "broke" it and now needs to "fix" it. If he did have it using FOW at one point, then it should be relatively easy to turn it back on again and improve upon it from there. That does not appear to be the case? So, backfitting the AI to implement FOW would be a real challenge as Brit says. And not worth it at this point. The computer opponent provides decent gameplay as it is.

[rich12545]

There are so few games using true fog of war for the AI. I don't understand how anyone can contest this. If you played games for 20-30 years then you may want to revisit those titles; next to all of them are not using fog of war or intel properly.

This is so ridiculous you'll need to provide some evidence. What games use this all-seeing AI? Which ones? If so few games use true fog of war then you should easily be able to name at least 10-20. Let's see the names.

Brit just did a test and found that Empire Enhanced does NOT cheat and uses true fog of war. If EDEE can do it so can EoS.

This comment from Brit leads me to believe the AI in EOS never used FOW, so it's not like Brit "broke" it and now needs to "fix" it. If he did have it using FOW at one point, then it should be relatively easy to turn it back on again and improve upon it from there. That does not appear to be the case? So, backfitting the AI to implement FOW would be a real challenge as Brit says. And not worth it at this point. The computer opponent provides decent gameplay as it is.

Totally asinine. As stated several times in this thread, Brit said he was going to fix the all-seeing AI. Watch my lips on this one. Brit said he was going to fix the all-seeing AI. So it was broken. Brit admitted it. Then all of a sudden he's quitting the game so it's too much work to do.

When the AI doesn't use fog of war, it sees all the cities. It doesn't have to search. It automatically sends land units to capture them. It automatically sends transports to the best cities nearby. When it sees your transport coming toward it, there's plenty of time to send a SS or BB to intercept and sink it. When it sees your SS coming after its BB, there's plenty of time for the BB to flee or to send in some DDs. Anybody with at least half a brain who understands what's going on wouldn't want to play a game like this. Just knowing what the AI is doing without fog of war takes all the fun away. There's really no way to use strategy or tactics because the AI sees what you're doing and can easily counter it. All you can do is use overwhelming force to beat the AI. If that's what you like then fine.

Question for pzgndr. Does Strategic Command use an all seeing AI? Apparently you were a beta tester so you should know. Does it?

If Brit felt the all-seeing AI was important enough to fix a few months ago, then it's just as important to fix now.

I wasn't going to comment anymore in this thread, but this misinformation is too much.

[pzgndr]

As stated several times in this thread, Brit said he was going to fix the all-seeing AI. Watch my lips on this one. Brit said he was going to fix the all-seeing AI. So it was broken. Brit admitted it. Then all of a sudden he's quitting the game so it's too much work to do.

So what? "Fix" as in make a feature enhancement to implement FOW, or fix as in it was there and then he "broke" it so now he has to repair it? Methinks it is you spreading misinformation here, not I. Every game programmer would ideally like to provide the perfect computer opponent, but most maintain more realistic expectations. And so do most players for that matter. Why not find yourself some pbem friends??

Question for pzgndr. Does Strategic Command use an all seeing AI? Apparently you were a beta tester so you should know. Does it?

See post #48. And what do you mean by "apparently" and "were"? My posts clearly show me as an SC Beta Tester, but you simply cannot accept anything provided to you in black&white? I know a thing or two about the challenges of AI programming and AI scripting based on everything Hubert Cater's been through since about 2002, as well as my own Advanced Third Reich mod efforts. It's not trivial.

When Brit and others tell you point blank how challenging it is to reprogram an AI originally built to not use FOW, listen to them. And to think Brit will commit to hundreds or thousands of hours of additional effort for free for some piss-ant whining about "moral obligation" to provide some marginally better AI, you must be high on drugs. Too bad for you, eh?

I wasn't going to comment anymore

Please don't. Bye bye.

[rich12545]

Brit only said this point blank AFTER he decided not to fix it. Before that he said he was going to fix it. That has been said on this forum several times. Where have you been? How could you have missed that?

So if Brit said he was going to fix it, listen to him. It wasn't a big deal. He was going to do it. Hundreds or thousands of hours is a dumb thing to say. Talking to you really is like talking to a 10 year old.

SC2 is a lot more complex than EoS. If you don't know that than you're even dumber than I thought.

The game is 98% finished. The AI already knows how to explore, expand and attack. All it needs is how to search. Brit wrote about that a few months ago. It's not a big deal. He was going to do it. If he was going to do it then, he could do it now.

Here's what Brit said two months ago:

"Originally Posted by rich12545--

Wondering if you'll be removing the ai cheat that allows them to see all units in the game.

Brit:

Yes, I want to. It'll take some more code to allow the AI to deal with the uncertainty, plus the AI might play a little worse, but I'd like to remove it. Having the AI play without knowing the placement and strength of the enemies adds more strategic possibilities (like more interesting submarine warfare, increases the need to remain unseen before an invasion, etc)."

Even Brit acknowledges the advantages of having the AI use fog of war. It's only now that he is abandoning the game that he's giving excuses and you're acting like a groupie to a rock star. Brit did NOT complain that it would take him hundreds or thousands of hours. The way he wrote it didn't look like it would take a lot of time. It's not a big deal. Problem is Brit is abandoning the game and doesn't want to do ANYTHING.

[pzgndr]

Rich, I was your age for a whole year once. Maybe someday you'll grow up and act a little more mature than you have been here. If you think insulting folks and throwing temper tantrums is going to get you anywhere in life, then I recommend you check out a Dale Carnegie book or two.

The AI already knows how to explore, expand and attack. All it needs is how to search. Brit wrote about that a few months ago. It's not a big deal. He was going to do it. If he was going to do it then, he could do it now.

It is obviously a bigger deal than you are capable of understanding, and not going to happen for free. Sure Brit "could" do it, he could probably work himself into total bankruptcy and early death too, but it ain't gonna happen. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Anything else, kid? This is entertaining in its own perverse little way. We all got time...

[Scott_WAR]

And to think Brit will commit to hundreds or thousands of hours of additional effort for free for some piss-ant whining

For FREE? I dont think so. How about delivering a FINISHED product that I paid FULL PRICE for? Not an 'almost finished' product. I didnt 'almost' pay full price................

[shauny1987]

Rofl this 'AI iz broked' dead horse has been beat. Give it up guys. This is what happens when developers get too friendly with the consumers - some of them give themselves false airs and an aura of authority. There is no authority, you bought a game, you have no weight here to throw about.

Your Ideas have been noted by all parties. Give it up.

[rich12545]

This is what happens when a developer doesn't deliver a finished product and then abandons it while refusing to finish.

And when his groupies continue to defend him.

The game has been out for more than a year. Maybe a hundred updates. And it's still in beta.

[rich12545]

It is obviously a bigger deal than you are capable of understanding, and not going to happen for free. Sure Brit "could" do it, he could probably work himself into total bankruptcy and early death too, but it ain't gonna happen.

Obviously????? Now you're just making stuff up.

Total bankruptcy and early death????? This is too funny.

Somebody must be paying you to make these kind of statements. Really. Nobody could be this stupid.

[pzgndr]

This is so sad it's almost funny. Almost.

The really sad thing is that any aspiring game developer who might be considering a jump into this niche market is observing an ugly side of the business. If your first effort isn't brilliant and perfect, be prepared to be abused. Cuz some kid who spent his lunch money on a toy wants it to be perfect.

Ah well. No horse is too dead to beat. Rich, go ahead and lob a few more insults and get yourself in the last word. Enjoy yourself. I'll just sit back and watch....

[rich12545]

I take it back. It is possible to be that stupid.

You are the epitome of the game fanboy.

Everybody has to do it YOUR way.

See, I don't care if you want to play a game with a crap AI. Not at all. I don't care if you think Brit has done a great job. That's your opinion and you're entitled to it as long as you don't continue to post bs. Just be honest for once. If you can.

Point is I don't want to play a game with a crap AI. Is it really a crap AI? Yes, just read through my posts on this forum. Even Brit admits it. He wanted to fix it. It's a crap AI. Nobody expects it to be perfect, just right.

Keep in mind the dev at Empire Enhanced was able to make a very good AI with NO cheating. If he can do it, so can Brit. It's not all that difficult. Brit could do it with just a little bit of effort. But he flaked out. It's screw the customer time. And you think that's just fine.

[Brit]

Hey guys, it's nice that people are interested in the future of the game, but remember that people tend to behave with reciprocity: treat someone well and they'll respond in kind, attack someone and they'll respond in kind. It seems like we're getting into a cycle of the latter. The solution is to avoid responding in kind when someone attacks.

[Scott_WAR]

The solution is to avoid responding in kind when someone attacks.

Actually a better solution would be for you to do the right thing and finish the game in your spare time. As said above we dont really care how long it takes,....we have waited over a year for the game to get where its at now,...we are willing to continue waiting for you to fix the last big problem with the game.

[rich12545]

Actually a better solution would be for you to do the right thing and finish the game in your spare time. As said above we dont really care how long it takes,....we have waited over a year for the game to get where its at now,...we are willing to continue waiting for you to fix the last big problem with the game.

+1

Again you got it exactly right.

[shauny1987]

I suggest someone lock this thread, it kills braincells just reading peoples replies to Brit.

[savoldi]

HAHA. I'm not surprised the AI player hadn't left his starting island. That's a lot of what I complained about back then. The AI was simply terrible. Still is, the game default script hasn't changed. I don't know if it's possible to use mods in the demo, but if it is, I suggest you download my mod and try it. You'll find a 180 degree difference. The last game I played, by 70 turns or so the AI had me beat and I resigned. This was a case of watch out what you wish for. It took me five+ years to get the AI script along with the unitdb and config to this point.

Is there a way to download your AI without having to join the yahoo group? I applied for that but they refused membership.

[StellarRat]

All this ranting about the AI is pretty amusing. Brit has given far more than the original content and still people say the game is not "finished". That's just crazy talk. How many free patches and added content/functionality did you all get with Oblivion? Civ? I can guarantee you 99% of all games have some cheats for the computer. Programming a true AI is an immense task. Two of us spent one year working about 10 hours a week doing an AI for a game that was far less complex than EOS. We had no terrain to worry and only two simple objectives, destroy all enemies encountered at a certain point in space or avoid destruction. The basic fire control system for direct fire weapons design for AI (no code just calculations and diagrams) alone was someones entire term project in college. We had improve upon that later then add navigation AI, objective AI and a module to decide when and how to employ unguided bombs. Since it was a tactical game we didn't have to worry about building units or supplies. We're not even talking all the other programming GUI, game design, etc... the two guys I worked with on the project were both physics majors and we all had at least 10 years of programming experience. If you want see how good other games AIs are look at the credits for any major game you're going to see very few programmers and tons of artists ... that should give an idea of how the major producers think about good AI. It's easy and quick to write a semi-competent AI if you allow massive cheating so that's what they do. All really care about is flashy graphics and sound.

[Scott_WAR]

I suggest someone lock this thread, it kills braincells just reading peoples replies to Brit.

You mean to say "people dont agree with what I am saying so I dont want them to be able to say it" Typical brown noser attitude.

All this ranting about the AI is pretty amusing. Brit has given far more than the original content and still people say the game is not "finished". That's just crazy talk. How many free patches and added content/functionality did you all get with Oblivion? Civ? I can guarantee you 99% of all games have some cheats for the computer. Programming a true AI is an immense task. Two of us spent one year working about 10 hours a week doing an AI for a game that was far less complex than EOS. We had no terrain to worry and only two simple objectives, destroy all enemies encountered at a certain point in space or avoid destruction. The basic fire control system for direct fire weapons design for AI (no code just calculations and diagrams) alone was someones entire term project in college. We had improve upon that later then add navigation AI, objective AI and a module to decide when and how to employ unguided bombs. Since it was a tactical game we didn't have to worry about building units or supplies. We're not even talking all the other programming GUI, game design, etc... the two guys I worked with on the project were both physics majors and we all had at least 10 years of programming experience. If you want see how good other games AIs are look at the credits for any major game you're going to see very few programmers and tons of artists ... that should give an idea of how the major producers think about good AI. It's easy and quick to write a semi-competent AI if you allow massive cheating so that's what they do. All really care about is flashy graphics and sound.

The problem with your points-----

1- Yeah Brit did a lot of work on this game. He also asked us to answer a poll about what we wanted worked on...AI won by a landslide,...but we got african maps and large factories and several things NOBODY asked for. Fix what the people want fixed.

2- Brit said he wanted to fix the problem,...meaning he knows its a problem (why do I have to keep repeating this,...people need to stop with the selctive memory), which means....ITS A PROBLEM

3- other games have no relevance here.....I didnt buy other games. Brit didnt promise to finish other games, Brit didnt say the AI needed fixed in other games. Its about THIS GAME.

4- I dont care how hard it is for you and others to create an AI for a game. If you cant handle it,....DONT START IT,... Brit decided to make the game, Brit decided to add fog of war, Brit made the claim that the AI needs to NOT be all seeing,.....Brit made promises to finish the game completely before he walked away,...and he is going back on that promise,....no matter how you want to try and spin it.

[shauny1987]

You mean to say "people dont agree with what I am saying so I dont want them to be able to say it"

No I mean this thread is attracting idiocy and in any other forum would have been locked long ago.