JerseyJohn Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 In a recent PBEM game I moved a French HQ to Malta because I didn't have time to transfer him anywhere else. By sheer coincidence I had every unit of the French Navy in the port and around the island, all connecting with the HQ in their center. France Fell the following turn. To my amazment I was left with the entire French Navy. Has this happened with anyone else, and if so, at a different location, possibly Scapa Flow? I believe this is a game flaw and ought to be corrected. But then I also believe the present exit of French units should also be changed so ALL French units disappear with the Fall of France and instead of inheriting French units, the UK is allotted a number of MPPs representing the Free French who could have been expected to rally behind the cause. A different provision should be made for the French Fleet, probably dependant upon the unit's location and the number of French naval units still in existence. [ March 22, 2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin P. Posted March 22, 2003 Share Posted March 22, 2003 Very Interesting, Perhaps if UK spent some diplomatic energy (Diplomatic Points as mentioned in another thread)building relations with French Admirals this would have happened in real life. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 22, 2003 Author Share Posted March 22, 2003 Edward P In real life, I think some French ships serving with the British in Alexandria voluntarily docked and rigged their vessels with explosives, sitting out the war. Other French ships interned themselves principally at Toulon and Mirs el Kebir. A very powerful British squadron sailed to Mirs and gave the French admiral an ultimatum to eith join the British or be sunk in port. When the French didn't sail out the British opened fire, sinking most of the force and killing many French sailors. The fact Vichy didn't immediately go over to the Germans is one of the reasons I feel their Axis sentiments have been overplayed in subsequent years by British Propagandists. A French aircraft carrier in Martinique also took itself out of the war and was the backdrop for Humphrey Bogart's first movie with Lauren Bacall, To Have and Have Not -- the movie had almost nothing to do with the Hemingway novel, and there's some nonsense about the aircraft carrier sailing off to join the Germans. I think the crew, safe and sound, neutral in a tropical paradise, would have mutineed for sure! [ March 22, 2003, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Hah, I am the PBEM butt of his creative rescue of the French Fleet! LOL, I'm okay on land, but Jersey John is a much better admiral than I, even without several extra ships at his disposal. Now this is an interesting thing, I had no idea that HQ could have any impact whatsoever on naval units. However, unless it's a huge fluke, the cause and effect seem to be more than coincidental. All it would take is one more playtest to see if the effect repeats itself. Out of curiousity, maybe I'll try it against the AI and see what happens. The MPP instead of Free French would work, but the Free French do come in handy for garrison duty here and there. As long as this quirk doesn't get turned into a gamey artifice - "The French Navy Gambit", it's probably okay to let it ride as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 SteveC. Great entry, thanks for the admiral word but going by our other PBEM game I'd be better off staying at sea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza_35 Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 I have had all french fleet and a transport survive fall of france. You will find a post way back from the victim Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuniworth Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Sure it happens once in a while. No fun beeing axis when it occurs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 25, 2003 Author Share Posted March 25, 2003 It's possible that this was a fluke. SteveC. is right, The Maltese Salvation should be tested a few times to see if it's for real. [ March 25, 2003, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santabear Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Playing against the AI: I have several times sailed the French Fleet to British ports and had it survive intact. The manual says that units have a 20% chance of remaining, but my luck with the French fleet (even at "expert" level) has been exceptional if that percentage is correct. The worst I've done is to keep a battleship and a cruiser. And I haven't had an HQ involved. I wish I could transfer the same luck to Vegas. I'd retire! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hueristic Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I've had the entire french fleet survive. Course it was a size 2 cruiser surrounded by 2 Ictalian Battleships lol. Just use hot seat if you wanna test it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I just play-tested this against the AI. Built a French HQ and transported it to Malta, clustered the whole French navy around it. I then purposely evacuated Paris and handed the key to the city to the Germans. France fell, the whole French fleet survived. So based on the data we have so far, it appears that it's not a fluke. But, further playtesting revealed that it only works at Malta. I tried again at Scapa Flow, twice. In the first instance, I left the HQ on the transport in Scapa Flow and clustered the French navy around it. When France fell, they all vanished. I repeated the exercise by unloading the HQ in the land hex and then clustered the navy around that. Only the ship in port survived. Thinking the HQ must be in a fortress hex or city, I tried again at Edinburgh with the HQ in the city and three ships gathered around it in the sea hexes. France fell, they all vanished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santabear Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 The French ships have to be IN the British port hexes (not near them). I don't think French HQ's matter in Britain. But I've never tried the Malta thing...one more wrinkle to try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve C Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Heh, looks like maybe it was a fluke after all. Tested again in hotseat mode, tried the Malta thing without the HQ to see what happened, only one ship survived. Thinking that must clinch the HQ effect, tried it again twice with the HQ and darned if only one ship survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaWolf_48 Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Hi John Played a Ally AI game where when France surrendered (it's so easy for them to surrender, they do it every 20 years), and all the French Fleet was given to the Allies. There must be something there as a choice in the program. "To have and to have not", is my favorite Bogie film with "The big sleep" second, "Maltees Falcon" third. Lorin Bacals line "you know how to whistle don't you, you just put your lips together a blow" is one of the great lines in the cellulose screen era. You can't blame the British for blowing the sh_t out of the French fleet at Oran, they are so unpredictable and fickle as a people, in my mind there is no blame on the killing of french sailors. Also later on the French killed and wounded around 1000 US Troops when the US Army invaded North Africa. Even now if the French would have back us against Sadam, he would have had to resign, without spilling anyones blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyJohn Posted March 26, 2003 Author Share Posted March 26, 2003 Greetings SeaWolf The United States did something brilliant when landing in Morocco, word was sent to the French that if they agreed to join the Allies they should shine their spotlights skyward. The Americans immediately flew a plane over the city for reasons still unexplained, and all the French spotlights were, not surprisingly, pointed heavenward. Ike tood it to be the agreement signal and we landed, promptly being fired upon because the French never agreed to anything! I love those old movies myself and you're right about Bacall's whistling line. I think the sequel to that one was Key Largo where they dropped Walter Brenan (who played a great lush in ...have not) and added Edwin G. Robinson and Lionel Barrymore -- not a bad trade! The dialog exchanges between Barrymore and Robinson is incredible. That's definitely one of my era favorites, along with Casablanca and Citizen Kane. I've lambasted the British dozens of times for sinking the French fleet at Mirs el Kebir, but you make a good point, there was no way to predict what the French would do next. My overall complaint with the Brits is France should have been given the chance to make a seperate peace after Paris fell. Once Vichy announced it's neutrality I think Britain should have treated it as such. Of course, had I been in Churchill's shoes I might have done exactly the same thing. I know the British Admiral Cunningham did not enjoy carrying out that order. Yeah, I agree, the French behavior in this thing has been contemptable and Turkey's has be insane. What bugs me is all these countries that block the war against Hussein want to get in and have a voice in Iraq's post war affairs. I'm really hoping they don't screw this thing up, I think it would be great if Iraq formed a good and responsive government; it would help stabilize the middle East and put the pressure on Syria, Arabia and Iran to at least enter the 19th Century. With all that talk about the oil, I'm not a big believer in war reparations, but with the U. S. and Britain shelling out 100 Billion or so I don't think it's unreasonable to confiscate all of the Bath Government holdings and all of Saddam Hussein and son's ill-begotten fortune to help pay for things. At best it would only cover 25%, which is why I get a laugh out of these clowns talking about US/British Imperialism. If that were the game both countries could have been cutting deals with Hussein all along, like our French Allies. Anyway, enough with the soap box, no doubt I'll have twenty people quoting that like mad and making me out to be a warmonger. I'll have to change my signature, perhaps something suble, like JohnofJersey . SteveC. Glad you researched it. Maybe what it does is raise the percentage from 20% to 50%. Having Gamelin sitting on Malta might not be a bad idea anyhow. He'd be fully supplied, mostly with snails and other Frenchy stuff and could ignore the rest of the war to his heart's delight. Having shed all those annoying armies there would have been no need of telephones, or any other form of communication with the outside world. The occaisional mail dropped off by the occaisional battered supply ship would be more than enough. The Grand Old Marshall would have settled into a delux underground bunker and begun working on his memoirs over cherry and cheese during bombing raids. [ March 26, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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