"1939 Fall Weiss Revisited" Campaign

[Narayan Sengupta]

Hi Everyone,

I don't know if I ever notified you all about this one or not, but it's a revision of Hubert Cater's excellent "1939 Fall Weiss", but with a lot more units...

I completed it back in April, 2003 and have been meaning to tell you all about it, but it has somehow slipped my mind.

"1939 Fall Weiss Revisted" Campaign is an upgrade to the excellent stock "1939 Fall Weiss Campaign" by Hubert Cater. I have used references such as the "Atlas of World War II", "Jane's Fighting Ships", "Hitler's Luftwaffe" and many more to add units that were historically correct.

I really hope you like it. If you do, then please let me know.

Narayan

[ July 21, 2003, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Narayan Sengupta ]

[Narayan Sengupta]

Here are some details:

Many units are under construction, and are represented as such by being very much understrength. It is your job to build them up if you feel it necessary, or to leave them to languish and never be completed as often happened during the war when priorities changed. There are also older units (many older battleships, for example), and they are also understrength (typically in around 5 or 6 strength).

The French OOB is now much more accurate, since I have added all of the Armies that were actually present at the outbreak of the war, General Bilotte, three French Air Wings, and a small reserve armor corps representing the three DLMs - the world's first armored divisions. But all of the French armies are rated at between 2 to 4 representing how understrength they were when the war broke out. It is up to you to try to make them up to full strength in time for the German onslaught. Chances are you won't. Instead of being able to delay the German AI indefinitely (I can usually do it for a year or more with the stock campaign), France will probably fall within a historically consistent six weeks.

Ditto with Poland. Its units have been decreased in strength, also to reflect issues in mobilization. Good luck holding on to Poland for more than two turns.

I have also done this with the other nations that are activated. I have added just about every ship that was either commissioned or under construction in September, 1939. So the Bismarck, Tirpitz and Graf Zeppelin are all represented, but at varying strengths (4, 2, 1 respectively) representing where they were in the construction cycle.

Germany: Bismarck, Tirpitz, Graf Zeppelin*, Scharnhorst, Gniesenau, Prinz Eugen, Hipper/Blucher, Graf Spee and several submarines (nine wolf packs in all of varying strength under construction), more air units, more land units.

France: Bearn, Jean Bart, Lorraine, Bretagne, and several other battleships and one submarine, Armies 1 through 9, General Bilotte, etc.

UK: Prince of Wales, King George V, Howe, Anson, Duke of York, Rodney, Nelson, Repulse, Renown, Hood, Malaya, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant, Warspite, Barham, Revenge, Royal Oak, Resolution, Ramillies, Royal Sovereign, Illustrious, Eagle, Hermes, Furious, Ark Royal, Victorious, Courageous, various other battleships and carriers, Fighter Commands 10 through 13, etc.

[Kuniworth]

Narayan! I´ve tried it and it´s great. However you need to give Russia more MMP to reflect the great army reserve of the soviet union. In an earlier thread I belive I counted it to be 1300 MMP.

[Tony Reale]

Originally posted by Narayan Sengupta:

Hi Everyone,

I don't know if I ever notified you all about this one or not, but it's a revision of Hubert Cater's excellent "1939 Fall Weiss", but with a lot more units...

Narayan

Is this compatible with 1.07?

[pzgndr]

Sounds good! I'll have to check this out. Please feel free to borrow ideas from the Campaign mods I worked on - tweaking research techs and points, unit experience, at-start MPPs, adding UK units to Egypt (because the AI won't), etc. There is a lot you can do with the editor, yes?

[Narayan Sengupta]

Thanks for the feedback Gentlemen,

Kuniworth,

I'll look into the MPP for Russia.

Tony,

I have no idea why it would be incompatible with 1.07. If it is for any reason, then please let me know.

Bill,

Thank you for your kind offer to exchange ideas. I have done all of those except for adding land units to Egypt. Hadn't even thought of that. That's a great idea. I may do that in future updates of this campaign. I did add more units to the British Mediterranean fleet outside of Alexandria and elsewhere, however.

Narayan

[Kuniworth]

Narayan, in january Ive posted this about the russian OOB;

Referring to the manual the following unit sizes are used;

corps; 40-60,000 men

army; 100,000 men

Tank unit; Not said but I guess 600-1000(4 pz divisions)

Airfleets; Not mentioned but my guess is 500-700

However lets say the germans throw the regular Barbarossa against the russians. Due to the low count on armies the german troops will be counted as barely 1,5 million men in the SC 1941 scenario. Thats half the size of the historical invasion force.

The russians though get the real problem out of this. They start with 2 tank groups, 6 corps, 3 airfleets and 11 armies. Lets do some math - that will give them approxamately 1,460 000 men with maximum 2000 tanks and 2100 airplanes. They get 1200 MMP which gets them a further 660,000 if buyin corps for the money or 500,000 if buyin armies.

This is way to low.

Historically the russians mustered a lot more troops in june, 1941. For their western war 4,700 000 million men could be assembled but only 2,5 million men at the border and western USSR. The airforce counted 1350 bombers(of which 500 modern) with almost 2000 old fighters and 800 recon planes. When it comes to tanks USSR as you know had a lot of them. But lets talk about modern tanks, they had 867 t-34:s and 508 KV-1:s. That gives them 1500 tanks.

The conclusion of this is that Russia is way underbalanced when attacked in SC. Lets compare;

Historically compared to SC

tanks 1500 or more, in game 2 tank groups(its ok)

Airforce 4000, in game 3 airfleets - (its ok)

Infantry 2,5 million, in game 11 armies and 6 corps(too low)

So as I see this armies should be counted higher for instance 250,000 men that would make figures accurate. But then we would have to underpower the setup in Fall weiss. Cause we want it as historically correct as possible dont we?

So my suggestion;

Russian infantry strenght is now 1,460 000. I want that figure increased to match 2,5 million men in 1941. I dont see this as a problem for the OOB if russians get that extra million, on the contrary the OOB today is lackin a lot in case of army names and positions. Givin them 10 extra corps(weak, reduced in strenght points) is not posssible. So we will have to give them MMP instead to rise the number to historical levels.

So time for math;

1,46 million russians + 1200 MMP = 2 million soldiers. 2,7 million are missin.

But that will be too much for the game balance and not take into account the low efficency of the red army. So lets raise it up to 2,5 million men instead, as that is what they actually had in western Russia. Thats 500,000 men which we will be able to get by buyin either 10 corps or 5 armies. Thats about 1200 MMP more.

CONCLUSION;

Red army should get 2400 MMP in 1941. This should be way lower if Russia joins the war or is attacked in earlier years. Those figures should be connected to the historical red army OOB in 1939 and 1940.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Hi Kuniworth,

Are these numbers specific for my campaign or the other campaigns?

I don't want to mess around too much with play-balance.

Narayan

[Kuniworth]

This figures are the soviet strength during the initial attack of Barbarossa june 1941. That should be lowered for the 1939 fall weiss campign.

The problem is that in your scenario Germany got jets level 2 and I think 5 airfleets which will make toasts of the red army. I really would consider to play your scenario with some kind of limitations on number of airfleets each country could raise. The german mobilisation in your scenario would not have gone unseen in Sovietunion so you use the eqvation of 2400 MMP which is what they should have in june 1941. Problem is here that SC will increase the amount of MMP that Sovietunion gains from year to year so this will make it difficult to give the SU the correct amount MMP.

However back to the Russian OOB at Fall Weiss 1939. The Sovietunion mustered around 170 divisions(1 division=15,000 men) of which many were understrength. 135 were regular infantry, 5 cavalry divisions and 20-25 motorized and armoured. In total it makes for around 2,5 million men that the Red army fielded in september 1939.

The Red army starts the 1939 scenario with around 100 MMP and 4 corps and 7 armies = approxiamately 940,000 men. That means that 1,560 000 men are "missing" and needs to be replaced by giving Russia extra MMP:s.

So we need to count like this;

In your scenario you have givin Russia industrial tech level 3 which means that an army(100,000 men) costs around 200 MMP and a corps(60,000 men) 100 MMP. Based on the corps cost that would mean that Russia should get 25 corps of 100,000 to make up for the missing 1,5 million men which would mean 25*100 MMP = 2500 MMP.

It´s up to you to determine if this would fatally unbalance the game. Russia starts the SC fall weiss scenario with only 1 airfleet. They should have at least to and thats another 340 MMP to add.

But my suggestion to simulate russian ineffectiveness and understrength units is to give russia 2000 MMP as an overall figure.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Hi Kuniworth,

You have done your research very well.

When you say 2000 MPPs, you mean including already purchased units?

Thank you,

Narayan

[Night]

There are a lot of problem's with the A.I. in this Campaign. After the fall of france, I launched a Sealion expecting to take massive losses and having to degrade the large Royal Navy. To my surprise, the Royal navy just sat around northern England, and barley dared to engage my very few cruisers and battleships, some of which start well below full strength! I landed all of souther England and even north of London and quickly captured the city, then simply drove on to Manchester. France was a harder fight and I didn't even have to cross the water! England fell and the game went on, soon the U.S. joined after Readiness shot up post-sealion. Spain joined me, and I figured I would eventually have to defend England and France while defeating Russia... Again I was surprised.

Right now in my game, i'm about 2-3 turns from capturing Moscow, and any Russin resistence at this time is just futile, only a matter of time before all the cities are captured. With Italy, I was able to run rampid all over the med taking Iraq, Invading Turkey, Greece, Etc. But the real kicker is that I'm only fighting one major allied power... while there are two left. the U.S. is just sitting in it's country, with just over 3000 MPPs. I sent a sub from my sub screen orginaly set up to stop American Transports to see just what the hell was going on, I got close enough to be attacked by 2 American level 4 jets, then turned around, But from what I can gather, the American's have a very good number of techs in many different fields, 3000 MPPs, a country filled with troops, yet they are just sitting there gaining money!!! The game is so easy that it was barley fun after a while. The A.I simply could not grasp both defending England with the fleet, and Liberating England with the Americans.

[Kuniworth]

Narayan;

I mean that the soviets should be given 2000 MMP in the editor.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Kuniworth,

Thanks. I'll take a look.

Night,

Are you saying that this campaign is easier than the stock Fall Weiss campaign?

When are you invading England? I can probably make the existing corps more entrenched, and maybe add some more Allied units, but then I have to worry about balance in the other direction. Still, I appreciate all of the feedback. I'm going to be making some revisions.

Thanks,

Narayan

[Narayan Sengupta]

One more thing... what do you all suggest I do to balance the campaign? Right now I feel that it is very well balanced when playing the Allies. But most of your suggestions are from the perspective of playing as the Germans instead. So if I make the Allies tougher, then they can roll over the Germans more easily when the player is the Allies.

I suppose entrenching certain units in certain ways will help.

Narayan

[Kuniworth]

It´s hard to get a balanced game with many units at the start. It´s very difficult, I think Germany is way to strong with jets level 2 at the start.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Kunniworth,

I appreciate your opinion on that and will decrease it to 1.

Have you tried this campaign as the Allies? One of the reasons Germany is strong is to prevent the Allies from staving off the Germans indefinitely. I found that as the French, it used to be possible to simply contain the Germans on the Maginot and Dyle. But now it's not. The German AI comes through and wins in about six weeks, just like in history.

Narayan

[JerseyJohn]

Narayan Sengupta

You've got some excellent ideas and I'm looking forward to trying your scenario in the near future.

I know you've got it at your own site but it would be good to also send a copy to Otto's so it can be easily downloaded by more players in the future.

He's already got quite a few 1939 Fall Weiss entries, of which I've always felt Bill Macon's was the best, but there's always room for another. Among the more recent additions, Immer Etwas added his version in which he attempts to eliminate the Italian Gambit by having Italy active but weakened from Sept. 1939 and I've added on designed to eliminate the LC Gambit -- I have to admit it's the least favorite of my efforts, perhaps because I already liked Bill's. Anyway, there's always Macy's and Gimbels within sight of one another!

A quick word of advice would be hold off a while on revising your original ideas. Make notes of what people suggest but let the basic scenario be played a while before making any changes. If you revise it peacemeal in response to every suggestion or set of suggestions you'll end up losing the balance it had in when you first released it. I'm not saying the players don't provide good input, because they do, but examine changes closely before putting them into effect.

A good way to evaluate it might be to organize a small PBEM tournament -- possibly in Oak's League -- where all the games use your scenario. We did something similar with one of mine and the feedback has been extremely useful in making a much better second version.

I'm looking forward to trying all the campaigns at your site -- and I have to say it's a great place! -- and hopefully we'll see more of your ideas added in the future.

[ July 24, 2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Night]

I invaded very soon after the fall of france. With my jet's I slowly cleaned up the english planes to about half of thier airfleets left, then I brought out the fleet, most of which was repaired, some not, and drew out only a few english ships, then actually went up into northern england after the rest! Winning the battle! The english carriers upon the eve of Manchester Falling, ran to canada along with the free french fleet! Many were sunk by my U-boats before they made it. England was a breeze, and with no England and the U.S. just sitting there, Russia was a matter of time, while Italy had the time to concentrate on all the minor countries in the region.

[Narayan Sengupta]

Thanks JerseyJohn,

That's excellent advice. But I would want to make sure it's okay before getting it into any PBEM tournament. It would be pretty embarrassing if it wasn't well balanced at that point.

Night and Kuniworth,

I've started making some changes per your feedback.

The English navy is much better now (and includes more subs and cruisers and stronger carriers, etc.) and is located more along the Channel.

I've increased Soviet MPPs to 2000.

And I've made another fifty or so changes so far.

More notes to follow...

Narayan

[pzgndr]

JerseyJohn, thank you for your kind words. For the record, we must acknowledge the original contributions of dgaad and Martinov (where ARE those guys??). My focus was mainly on subtle tweaks to the at-start tech levels and experience to help make the game more historic. And to help compensate for some AI weaknesses.

Narayan, the expanded OOBs are very interesting. I've always argued that having some low strength cadre units at start is one way to help balance the game, and at-start MPP's for the neutrals like USSR. 2000 MPPs for USSR sounds way high though. It might help provide balance with all those extra German units in play, but that's something to watch during playtesting. Kuniworth's analysis provides some interesting benchmarking; however, manpower numbers alone don't equal unit effectiveness and you should be careful not to give USSR too much up front. Extra research chits instead of MPPs is an option.

I'd also recommend you be careful giving out too much high tech at the beginning. There should be some room to grow with research, at least that's been my philosophy. Remember there's a catch-up bonus, so you're literally giving the enemy an advantage. Keep playing around with it and see how the longer campaigns turn out. If you're seeing decent games into 1944 and beyond for both sides, then you're on the right track.

[JerseyJohn]

Narayan You're right; the next stage would be to test it in a PBEM Tournament, for which I'd like to immediately enter if it will be done through the Oak League* & **.

*It would need to be independantly handled, can't burden Oak with these things in addition to what he's already doing on his own time.

**I think it's a good idea to channel all PBEM activity through Oak's Listing. We're fortunate to have someone who'll keep track of all these things and his database should be utilized.

[JerseyJohn]

Bill It's always a pleasure to acknowledge your contributions. You're right about dgaad and Martinov paving the way, although I remember quite a bit of your input influencing their efforts before your first MOD came out.

As to their whereabouts, dgaad seemed to vanish at exactly the same time as his nemesis EB -- fortunately predating the conspiracy theories or there'd be accusations that they were the same person! I conducted considerable e-mail correspondence with Martinov but we haven’t been in touch for several months; I think he just became busy with other things.

[Night]

Have all your updates after this thread been added to the file on your site or no?

[Narayan Sengupta]

Night,

Not yet. I have been playtesting and am not quite satisfied with the results yet. The pendulum has swung too far in the other direction since now France can hold the border, albeit with difficulty.

Narayan

[Narayan Sengupta]

Hi Everyone,

I am ready for a play-tester. If you are interested, then please shoot me an e-mail to newfrontiers@mindspring.com.

Thank you,

Narayan