Xerxes the Great Posted April 11, 2011 Share Posted April 11, 2011 In Multiplayer maps, many settlements and bunkers are placed on top of a hill where there are actual roads leading to them. However, none of the vehicles can go or climb these roads to get there. Only infantry can go there. Now, logically this doesn't make sense and from game engine perspective, I don't see a reason why developers won't allow/support this. How am I supposed to get my AT guns up these strategic hills? Ask the poor souls to haul them up there while being sniped to pieces? So much promise, yet so many shortcomings and annoying tidbits. Any logical explanation for this? Over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes the Great Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 Can anyone from 1C development confirm that vehicles cannot climb the hills even on the road? I am seeing major path finding issues with vehicles specially when issuing movement commands for long distances, say move behind a hill or go through a city and exit the other side. I find myself micro managing every vehicle even if my driver's skill is high. Even the smallest of hills with roads are not taken by Vehicles. So, strategically and tactically, a 20 meter trip over a small hill (with a road going through it) would now need to be diverted to a journey of 1000 meters around the hill and into the path of enemy ATGs to reach the other side of the hill. All I need to know whether this is a bug or there are other variables and elements involved. I have tried tanks, armored cars, HMVs and all these vehicles refuse to go over a small tiny little hill (less than 10m in altitude). Only infantry can go. There goes the infantry support idea for this game! Not only armor cannot protect infantry due to these pathfinding fiascos and limitations, but also armor vehicles cannot carry certain infantry types with heavy gear which is also completely unrealistic and frankly an embarrasing attribute for what is supposed to be a realistic military simulation game. Please acknowledge and fix these issues. TOW's user base is more sophisticated than your typical RTS game and these things are noticed and matter quite a bit. I can sense that some users are already giving up hope and going AWOL on TOW. Don't add to our frustrations by not responding to simple logical questions. Over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Fisher Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I'm not from 1C, but when I have playing the game I have seen the same thing sometimes. I think that it was special case by map designer for representing the mountain terrain - not friendly and heavy duty for vehicles and tanks, but possible for men. P.S. If I have met this problem I always successfully had found another road passable for vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes the Great Posted April 12, 2011 Author Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think that it was special case by map designer for representing the mountain terrain - not friendly and heavy duty for vehicles and tanks, but possible for men. P.S. If I have met this problem I always successfully had found another road passable for vehicles. Well, in my case, it happens in 100% of cases. I play Multiplayer maps. There are 9 maps in Multiplayer and 8 of them have some sort of a hill/mountain with roads that can be taken to hilltop or mountain top. In none of the maps the vehicles are able to climb/drive over even the smallest of the hills. So, it is not a exception case. It is a general rule, at least with the Multiplayer maps that come with TOW3. Over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemonade Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Below a small fragment from "US tanks in North Korea" article by Michał Fiszer and Jerzy Gruszczyński published in vol. 3(20)/2010 of "Poligon" magazine (my translation, so please be forgiving): Korea doesn't have a suitable terrain for armoured formations. The whole peninsula is covered with mountains (...). Some of the mountains and valleys are forested while some others full of midget plants. There are however also areas with no vegetation at all. Wider valleys are used as rice paddies crossed by roads that lead over steep banks. Driving down from them is impossible. During the war, finer roads were very rare and even if, they were just a simple dirt, gravelled or, even rarer, cobbled roads. Tanks were tied to the them for it was impossible to leave them because of quaggy fields, steep mountain cliffs or forests. (...) bigger armoured formations were unable to relocate quickly. (...) many rivers flow across the peninsula, perpendicularly to main assault routes. Irrigation canals that watered rice paddies were also a serious obstacle. (...) bridges could only handle the weight of men and horse carts and not tanks or other armoured vehicles. Therefore AFVs crossed the rivers by fords, although not all rivers were shallow enough. (...) The main unit used in The North Korean War was good, old infantry.]So, I think vehicles being unable to drive over hills and banks, no matter if there's a road present, are historically correct. The problem is, that in every mission there doesn't seem to be enough infantry slots for a true infantry combat. PS. I think you should be glad that your tanks can actually leave the roads and still drive with almost full speed ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes the Great Posted April 13, 2011 Author Share Posted April 13, 2011 Below a small fragment from "US tanks in North Korea" article by Michał Fiszer and Jerzy Gruszczyński published in vol. 3(20)/2010 of "Poligon" magazine (my translation, so please be forgiving): So, I think vehicles being unable to drive over hills and banks, no matter if there's a road present, are historically correct. The problem is, that in every mission there doesn't seem to be enough infantry slots for a true infantry combat. PS. I think you should be glad that your tanks can actually leave the roads and still drive with almost full speed ahead. Thanks for the research. I think you may be giving too much credit to 1C developers here as I don't think they intended to prevent access for all vehicles from ALL hills. I could understand if some of the steeper hills were not accessible by vehicles but shallow hills that infantry can jump over, should be passable by vehicles. It is limiting the tactical aspect of the game given the low limit of units allowed per map. I think this is a bug! Over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shocker28 Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 Having been in Korea and been a driver in a mechanized unit I can tell you that while its true there's mountains all over and doesn't invite large tank on tank scenarios. Driving on hills and edges of cliffs is just an everyday event that cant be avoided due to the terrain. So I would have to agree that its a bit annoying that you cant drive up the hills to get to the small villages on top. Though some cases should not be accessible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Fisher Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 ... I play Multiplayer maps. There are 9 maps in Multiplayer and 8 of them have some sort of a hill/mountain with roads that can be taken to hilltop or mountain top. In none of the maps the vehicles are able to climb/drive over even the smallest of the hills. So, it is not a exception case. It is a general rule, at least with the Multiplayer maps that come with TOW3. Over. May be we have playing in different games... As I know in TOW3 there are no special maps for multiplayer. There are 9 maps in the game only. I have played most of them in campaign mode and my tanks always had found the wright way to the enemy strong points and positions. But these ways were not the straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Fisher Posted April 13, 2011 Share Posted April 13, 2011 May be this "after action report" tell a little more about tanks in the game. Sorry for Google made translation... On the 7th of the mission, the AI almost put me into a blind alley. As I mentioned above, the case was a "province" of Pusan, where the original UN and the remains of South Korean troops have established well-fortified bridgehead depleted continuous occurrence and losses from the fighting and American Aviation North Korean troops have not been able to cope with it had lost momentum and the initiative, which happened successful counter-attack UN troops. And I must say that the card and conditions of the mission very clearly demonstrated by at least of all the missions so far, this was the hardest. If it were not passivity of AI, to the same immobilized reserves, not sure that the general could not pass muster with guaranteed success. Briefing before the battle did not bode okay: Fighting Group Tank Regiment is to take the commanding heights in the mountainous region, defending ourselves part of the American Cavalry Division. However, even cursory glance at the map in the mode of arrangement did not promise anything good (See screenshot [IMG]http://s010.radikal.ru/i314/1101/88/7b35c6bd214a.jpg[/IMG] http://s010.radikal.ru/i314/1101/88/7b35c6bd214a.jpg): at the height of the zone of the initial deployment of troops a player (in the trough the bottom of the card in the middle of map) led the road-Serpentine, roofed in two places layered line of defense in the trenches, and caponier engineered barriers (the first line where the blue in the screenshot tanks and armored vehicles, and the second line is a little higher, just between the first line and the numeral 1 in the red circle marking the final goal offensive). At the very height too long trench m engineering Boom. Get a layered defense forces 4 tanks T-34-85, 2-BA-64 armored personnel carriers and six infantry divisions, supported by two mortars, "the horizon" mortar battery and managers Stormers somehow not impressed ... Little encouraging to see that the two tanks at the behest of the four designers of the mission were placed in the rear of the enemy's defense (in the text box in the center of GRASS screens, behind the second line of defense). But he decided to try, in the hope that would be a chore for a long time, but true. Not so fast! Only two of my tanks climbed the hill and appeared in sight of the enemy's advance line of defense includes two self-propelled guns M-36 and three 57mm PTO does not Considering the infantry in the trenches, as a clapped my anti-aircraft gun and high in the sky flown by American bombers filled my technique with heavy bombs, easily destroying the 34-ki ... Complete failure. Uploaded mission first. I tried to act in two tanks that were in rear of the enemy's defenses. Slipped past their flank, the second line of trenches Defense, with one tank was destroyed, most likely bazookas infantry, just not had time to notice), he brought a tank on a hill tried shoot pillboxes first line of defense from the rear and top. Not bad: one self-propelled guns and two guns VET managed to destroy without interference. Further, it was discovered that the tank down the hill can not. I had to keep him on the way down. Again, the tank had to slip by trenches second line of defense, but fortunately a quick movement and ignorance of fire on the enemy to ensure the success (and cell reserves AI is not necessary! ). At the bottom right of the bend in the road suddenly revealed the position of the American ZSU and two 105mm howitzers. Successfully with straightened them (especially with the ZSU that almost from the first shot pumped up 80 + gunner shot), the tank in the familiar manner proceeded through the trenches of the average position of the first line of defense along the way survived an inaccurate shot from a bazooka infantry (the second do not had, for the tank walked straight into the trenches, where he was a soldier with bazooka). Well, it has successfully won a duel with the latest ACS and the last 57mm VET (all still go to the rear of the AI in this helps a lot). But here take advantage of success again failed: as soon as the first line of defense in front of the other two went to my tank, as flown American bombers bombed and all ... Again fail, again Loading mission almost from the beginning ... The third time, decided to move one of the two tanks that were in the rear, to explore in the direction of top height, which is required to take. Before the enemy positions tank arrived without problemma as patrols were not, and the men second line of defense ago, not too closely watched to see flashed a couple of times on mountain serpentine North Korean tank. But here tank had only come in sight of the enemy on the top of the height, on it opened fire in two places. and the tank was quite unable to determine where and what to shoot him. I (and judging from tankers throughout) seemed to have a height of at least one gun and VET one tank ... While hoping to see from where they beat, the tank was hit and destroyed ... Did not wait for failure, and loaded in the fourth (!) times on the site where the tank has not yet reached the enemy's defenses on top height ... The truth had already opened the outlines are defensive positions of the enemy: the first line of maximum anti-tank + support + Aviation mortars and infantry on the middle and howitzers with ZSU the rear positions on the second line of infantry, at an altitude of unidentified funds VET (possibly tanks or ACS, guns PTI) and infantry. And also realized that operate with large forces and the classical style does not give vyzyvaemah AI deadly bombing Aviation ... Hence it has matured a plan: the second tank of those that were in enemy's rear, sending in a raid on the rear of the first line of defense in order to it is their sabotage a hunt for scalps obtained the right to call Stormers, reinforcements and mortars of "victory" points, and all the infantry to send along a mountain trail to the left of home page player's position in the rear of both lines of the enemy's defenses and continue along the path first climbed into the rear of the Yankees to the top of the tank height. At the same time problem was the infantry into battle with the forces of the second line of defense not to join, and concentrate at the top and unexpected blow to capture it, previously conducted the exploration capabilities of the enemy at a height Forces headquarters platoon (in which there are two sniper with good skill of the scout). Thought out, done. The second tank in the exhaust style made diversionary raid to the rear of the first line of defense, destroying All 5 guns (3 PTO on the front and 2 howitzers in the rear), ZSU and both self-propelled the Yankees. In this case, was surprised that the tank overcomes (SIC!) anti-tank obstacles. I do not know because if it was intended or is it another glitch in the style of nezavalivaemyh trees after loading saved the mission. The results of this "Saboteurs" in the armor can be seen on screen: - The first self-propelled guns destroyed, the shots were taken from the terrace, which is visible in the background Scrin [IMG]http://s006.radikal.ru/i214/1101/24/e1e2695a8580.jpg[/IMG] (intersnyh that SAU building was knocked 85mm armor-piercing projectile through!) - The second destroyed by ACS, which was shot down from behind at the end Raid: First, the mask gun shot, then the tower, then to the side of was finishing [IMG]http://s003.radikal.ru/i202/1101/e7/62f6e77aabd8.jpg[/IMG] - It is the same, but just a close-up (the tower remained deployed in the rear, because it jammed, and the body all the same self-propelled gun on a tank dovernula Koreans) [IMG]http://s004.radikal.ru/i208/1101/29/818dc3dcd0bb.jpg[/IMG] - Destroyed by one shot ZSU: Do not have time to make a single shot and bleed too [IMG]http://i016.radikal.ru/1101/7d/563c3a494eff.jpg[/IMG] - It is the same, but the general plan behind the position of one of the 105mm guns just crushed by a tank without firing a shot ... [IMG]http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/J0Vp5iXm.jpg[/IMG] (Double [IMG]http://s010.radikal.ru/i313/1101/a5/e39d678f21ae.jpg)[/IMG] - And this 105mm gun got from the fire armor-piercing (which is rules of the game can only defuse the shot) and several OB shells ... [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/nFHjWX7n.jpg[/IMG] - Well, the hero - an armored saboteur North Koreans, thoroughly pinched 105mm shells ... [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/C8Ocx9D5.jpg[/IMG] Then redeploy the platoon control to the top of the height and using sniper has discovered the enemy's position. It turned out that my fears were vain: tanks, self-propelled guns, or guns PTO was not there. Only infantry and two ... recoilless guns. It turned out that they are staying invisible terrified at the tank in the last time ... Decided try to turn them off by a sniper as he was in 300 and 250 m from the first and second shells. It turned out that for such objectives of the sniper rifle is not effective ... With its help, 10-20 patrons were able to destroy only one fighter from the calculations. Decided SCS try ... And that due to the high rate and density fire (or higher skill accuracy in comparison with the exploration, which affects the sniper fire) quickly solved the problem of both calculations recoilless guns. Back rifle fire infantrymen Yankees proved to be ineffective - the sniper just hands hurt ... And here lucky lucky sniper position: [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/o211asZa.jpg[/IMG] Further tightened all the infantry at the foot of the top ... And while she tightened all still decided to try to take the first line of defense opponent. For this, first held in one tank, both with a starting position in the first line of trenches in the depths of the first line of defense. Held the right flank, as far as possible without engaging in protracted firefight with enemy infantry, fearing that she is deadly bombers. Nevertheless, with a machine gun bunker destroyed just in case. Hereinafter called the infantry reinforcements, in the amount of about 5 branches, and brought him to the foot of the terrace to attack the trenches forefront Yankees. To support the attacks decided to use both armored vehicles, which also pulled down the slope to the right flank of the line trenches of the enemy. Then, as usual leaned thick chains, and armored cars, machine guns behind the fire support. As a result, despite loss of infantry trenches took, but then the desperate Yankees led to his and my head ... artillery and mortar fire. A lot of Korean soldiers died because of it captured in the trenches. But the few remaining Yankees Yankee too heroically died under friendly fire ... Here are screenshots after taking the best positions: - Armored vehicles also are useful: to effectively support their infantry in combat devoid of artillery and tank support for infantry the enemy and do not attract much attention of the enemy, to send to combat the bombers ... [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/YCW5YD4Z.jpg[/IMG] - Korean infantry reserve in the captured trenches forefront the first line of defense of the Yankees: Despite the progress made by destroy enemy tanks, saboteur of all artillery firepower and destruction of machine-gun bunker, Pyrrhic victory clearly - the Koreans are incapable of to further develop its success ... [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/UMSjU6JU.jpg[/IMG] Deal with the continuation of the assault on the first line of defense (and still remained infantry in the trenches in the middle position), we finally came to a halt when all the same someone spotted my tanks and bombers flew ... K Luckily only lost one tank ... but with an experienced crew ... Okay, with a victim has decided to accept all the same: not all the time to replay the wrong time ... Returned to the foot of the height and organized there by an infantry attack support a 34-ki. Here are screenshots before the attack, and extension at abroad assault: - General bird's-eye view [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/TFR4blve.jpg[/IMG] - Korean marines are poised to surprise attack in the rear the enemy (at the bottom of the second tank can be seen, the saboteur, who successfully leaked into the rear of the Yankees) ... [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/C9WWEYUc.jpg[/IMG] - The same ... Koreans, the only "profile" [IMG]http://s1.ipicture.ru/uploads/20110109/6p51rW2e.jpg[/IMG] Storming height, where the positions were explored, and the calculations recoilless guns destroyed sniper was easy. Corps under cover of relief turned into a chain in front of their trenches and went crawling to overcome engineering obstacles, passing firing on opponent. Tank slowly crawled first in the infantry masses, and then get ahead. Fortunately PTO funds the Yankees were gone, and bazookas again proved to be not accurate. After overcoming the lines hedgehogs and barbed Wire infantry climbed into the attack and finally a quick throw captured the trenches with minimal losses (all the same veterans, and not reserve, as is the case with the first line of defense). But for some reason, the mission did not ... end Checked the camp at altitude - the Yankees do not. Well, I think have cleaned the entire map. Began to move the tank from the top of the second line of defense, but he noticed on his way to the bunker on the flank of the line trenches a few lurking American infantrymen. Those fast destroyed as a preventive measure, and ... voila, mission completed victory! Mopping up the entire card is not needed! Moreover, for the victory (If you know in advance the winning plan from seeping into the rear amerikantsenv to the top of the height) in general could do without tanks. Only competent use of infantry and mortars. Such a mission, even something author recalled from the previous games in the series, as explicitly steers detour when the main forces of the Yankees in general no the need to fight. The only pity is that while the AI in the defense of extreme passive and has no moving reserves, which could hold sharp counterattack on the daring raid by the player.[/HTML] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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