The distribution of special ammunition in Red Army tanks?

[SS-Kommando]

Hi,

I initially posted this in the General Discussion forum, but after being recommended to post it here, I thought that I would do so.

Original topic: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=91894

"First off I would like to say hi. I just registered to this forum, but I have browsed it for some time.

Anyways, the reason I registered was because I would like to ask for information on usage of special ammunition in Red Army tanks.

Much like the OP in this thread requested: http://www.battlefront.com/community...ad.php?t=91051

Like him, I'm also developing a mod. Since I'm striving to make it as realistic as possible, I would greatly appreciate any information that I'm given.

For instance, to what degree was HEAT and APCR ammo used by the various tanks? Information on the distribution of standard HE and AP ammo would be appreciated to. So far, I have only read vaguely that T-34/76 models were often equipped with APCR when they were obsolete in the late war since the introduction of the T-34/85, though to what extent wasn't mentioned."

[Michael Emrys]

...I'm also developing a mod.

A mod or a scenario? This could get confusing. From the content of your post I suspect a scenario, but it needs to be made clear, otherwise you may not get the answer you are looking for.

Michael

[SS-Kommando]

A mod or a scenario? This could get confusing. From the content of your post I suspect a scenario, but it needs to be made clear, otherwise you may not get the answer you are looking for.

Michael

It is a mod. However, it is for another game (Men of War). The mod may be found at ModDB: http://www.moddb.com/mods/commanders-of-war-ii

[Michael Emrys]

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. Good luck with your search.

Michael

[dieseltaylor]

There was a similar request but on US tanks recently. The feeling I got from the comments was that there was no correct load-out as such. The underlying reasons would seem to be applicable to both cases.

On any given day the load ot would be a function of what the supply echelons had brought up. The fighting of the previos day or anticipated fighting of the current day would affect what commanders might load up with. After all if finding a German tank was rare but ATG's, infantry etc very common it would be reasonable to see the AP diminish s a %.

That would be a general rule all other things being equal. Against that there might be STAVKA orders, or regiment orders. I suspect if a commander decided the correct loadout was x,y,z he would have the ability to enforce it.

Special ammo, if in short supply, one would expect to go to where the need was greatest - so in late war around Berlin. And many units would never see the special stuff.

Not very helpful I am afraid as I think there are just too many variables to allow one to be dogmatic about what was right or wrong. There are some good Russian sites where access to Russian memoirs might possibly give a snapshot of a loadout on a particular day for that tank/unit.

[SS-Kommando]

Thanks for your response, taylor. I have already read that in the other topic about Western Allied load outs, and it certainly makes sense.

However, there are some numbers that may give a rough idea. For instance, in Germany's case, this information was a goldmine (shell production): http://www.sturmvogel.orbat.com/GermWeapProd.html

It doesn't tell exactly to what extent the special ammunitions were used, but it gives a good overall view of the quantities available.

Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification. Good luck with your search.

Michael

Thanks. I'm sure that everything goes well. I'm not in that much of a hurry to find the information. If I have to, I will improvise and fix errors in a later patch.

[dieseltaylor]

I was aware that the German and Allied stuff was available but I hesitate to draw any conclusions from what is produced to what is actually available on a specific front line often thousands of kilometres away.

The reason why I am cautious using statistics is someone once posted that it took x rounds of ammo to kill x people. This is something that commonly occurred from Napoleonic and ACW battles. Extrapolating this to something like the Polish Campaign I found hard to swallow and by some research I found the quoted figure of used [rifle calibre ammo of expenditure] was incredibly similar to the authorised issue at the campaign start. The assumption made was this was the total expenditure of ammo to get the kills. Dubious reasoning.

So to revert to my point. What is produced and how fast it gets to the sharp end are something to conjecture with - I am sure in the Russian case the pointy end fighting the major German armour would have got all of the early supply. I know the Germans at the beginning of war were distributing munitions to main arsenals from factory and then moving it to lower supply arsenals for areas, then to formations ..... whether this changed or they ended the war with lots of ammo sitting in arsenals with no way to send it to the front lines I can only suspect.

There remains one other sticking point and that is the Russian supply AFAIK was not above losing trainloads of kit. There is also the Russian habit of exaggerating production - now they may have improved for counting shell production : ) However for your purposes that could be irrelevant and depending on the scenario you are planning the load-out could be pretty much what you want it to be - allowing for some time lag from first production and what Front you want the battle to occur.

I simply think that ultimately though you could average across the entire tank force that would be as wrong as looking at an individual tank/unit on a specific day and deciding that was representative. I think it might be possible to find memoirs where tankers get excited about their first special shells, or may remark how uncommon they were after introduction. Or if there was a maximum permitted number. Or the ideal loadout. But at end of day that is still only one unit.

[SS-Kommando]

Taylor, I definitely see your point, and I'm aware of that equipment may have differed significantly from unit to unit, tank to tank, etc., but sadly that can't be reflected fully accurately in a game with limitations, so I will have to be pragmatic and settle for generalizations.

I'm however able to reflect different loads to a minor degree, but since there's no way --as far as I know-- to randomize the load-out of each tank in the game, I would have to overcrowd the game's buy menu with several versions of the same tank for a detail that would ultimately not have a that large impact on the gameplay.

[Der Alte Fritz]

I think you also have to bear in mind in the Russian service the unit that the tank comes from. Tank/Mech Corps tanks assigned to Tank Armies were top priority and got preferential treatment for their deep penetration battles. Tank Brigades/Corps/Regiments/Separate Regiments assigned to Combined Arms Armies were expected to provide infantry support and probably had different ammo loads/priorities.

Likewise the Front made a difference in the priority. An active Front would receive ammo but an inactive one might not. This was certainly the case with artillery where the Russians have a lot of guns in place but they only supplied the ones that were on the offensive. It made up for the lack of transport lift by the need to only move the ammunition and not the whole battery. Apply this to tanks and you get some units getting all the ammo and others relatively poorly off.