Are the german equipment nerfed and russian favored?

[winqvist]

Excellent game. Best tactical simulation for a long time. I've played few single missions plus the tutorials and I've made few observations:

- 7,5cm (L48) Kwk 39 has too poor penetration. At the single mission "steel torrent" the game gives the penetration ~90-100mm from the 100m distance. Other sources give much more for the same gun and for the same ammunition (panzergranate 39). for example, 144mm in the "wehrmach anti-tank gunnery data" website. http://www.miniatures.de/int/shells-german.html

And Wikipedia says this:

"With the KwK 40 L/43 and L/48 the tank carried 87 rounds. The standard Panzergranate 39 APCBC shell weighed 6.8 kg, had a muzzle velocity of 750 m/s and could penetrate 85 mm of rolled homogeneous armor plate at 60 degrees from horizontal at 1,000 m." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV#Armament

Only difference betweem kwk 39 and kwk 40 was that kwk 39 did'nt have muzzle break while kwk 40 did.

- Stug III E's and later models don't have MGs.

- Russians use too many automatic small arms and too little mosin-nagants compared to the manufacturing numbers, especially on the early stages. At least half or 2/3rds of the squad and even more on the early stages should have Mosin-Nagant 91/30 as their primary weapon. Some figures:

1. Mosin-Nagants: over 17 millions made. This

figure goes only to the model 91/30. It doesn't

count model 38 and 44 carbines.

2. Svt39 & 40 + avt40: about 2 millions made

3. ppd 34/38/40: about 1 million made?

4. Ppsh41: over 6 million made

Thanks. Now it's your turn to nail me down.

[theBrit]

From my experience..... I would say yes!

[Reichenberg]

Originally posted by winqvist:

...

- 7,5cm (L48) Kwk 39 has too poor penetration. At the single mission "steel torrent" the game gives the penetration ~90-100mm from the 100m distance. Other sources give much more for the same gun and for the same ammunition (panzergranate 39). for example, 144mm in the "wehrmach anti-tank gunnery data" website. http://www.miniatures.de/int/shells-german.html

And Wikipedia says this:

"With the KwK 40 L/43 and L/48 the tank carried 87 rounds. The standard Panzergranate 39 APCBC shell weighed 6.8 kg, had a muzzle velocity of 750 m/s and could penetrate 85 mm of rolled homogeneous armor plate at 60 degrees from horizontal at 1,000 m." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV#Armament

winqvist, welcome to the forums and its slow, but heated debate about patches, add-ons....

I looked up some numbers of the Panzergranate 39 in the Kwk40 in Gepanzerte Feuerkraft, Wolfgang Fleischer. He mentiones the following:

Penetration values with 60°:

100m - 99mm

1000m - 81mm

ToW numbers:

100m - 96mm

500m - 83mm

1000m - 69mm

1500m - 58mm

2000m - 48mm

Additionally for comparison are the numbers for the Pak40 with Panzergranate 39 (muzzle velocity 792m/s, so slightly higher than with Kwk39) at 60° and at 90° from Die Deutschen Geschütze, Senger und Etterlin:

60°:

0m - 121mm

457m - 106mm

915m - 94mm

90°:

0m - 149mm

457m - 135mm

915m - 121mm

So, while the wiki data is somehow in range with the data I have mentioned (that is a bit higher than the ToW data), the first source of yours has significantly different penetration values. Maybe they do not have their angles wright?? I can not dig deeper on the side of your source, because there are no sources for their data mentioned. It just says:

...using carefully researched gunnery data...

Uwe

[winqvist]

Salute Uwe!

Thanks for a quick reply. I have to admit that you are most propably right. Gun stats are really not my speciality and I don't have any good statements to argue with you. You have convinced me because your sources of information seem to be much more detailed, accurate and authorative.

All these years and thousands of gaming hours with various wargames I have lived with false information and I have thought that 75L48 pak's/kwk's are more powerful than they really were.

What do you (and other people) think about the statements from the soviet automatic small arms I mentioned?

Ps. My mis take. Svt38, not Svt39.

[Reichenberg]

winqvist, it comes down to the same question: What are your sources for your small arms issue?

When I just look at the numbers you give (and I do not havy any numbers or sources regarding Russian small arms) you must be right and there are too many automatic weapons on the Russian side.

But maybe we have to look deeper than only the production numbers..... A few more questions - maybe you can answer them:

What are the production figures by year??

Were all the weapons in the same "production" proportion handed over to frontline units in Europe??

Or were they used during basic training in different production proportions??

Or equipping of troops in the east of the SU with "non" automatic weapons??

Or export of small arms to other countries??

Depending on the experience of Russian commanders after the struggles with Finland and Japan in 39/40 it is not so unlikely that fighting front line troops were prefereably equipped with automatic weapons. But this is just speculation of mine. I got no hard data on the subject. Just some hints were to dig deeper if you do not have some kind of Russian guidelines of how an infantry unit has to be comprised in 41/42/43/44/45.

Uwe

[winqvist]

My most authorative sources of information of soviet small arms:

"Sotilaskäsiaseet suomessa 1918-1988, osat I-III" (Military Small arms in Finland 1918-1988, parts I-III.)

Author: Markku Palokangas

Publisher: Suomen asehistoriallinen

seura / The arms historic

society of Finland, 1991.

English translations: Robert Hutton, David J.

Penn, Herbert Woodend

And

"The ak47 story"

Author: Edward Clinton Ezell

Publisher: A Stackpole book, 1986.

Following production figures are from these two books. Most of them are from the Markku palokankaas's book number III where weapons are sorted by model.(when there's no source of data) and few lines from Edward Clinton Ezells book (When the source of data is written). These figures correct some mistakes and errors I mentioned on my earlier message.

1. MOSIN NAGANT M1891/30G: From 1934-1937

100 000 - 300 000 rifles per year. From

1937-1940 about 1,3 milloin rifles per year.

From 1940-1943 at least 8.6 million rifles.

Total Production: 13-17 million pieces.

These figures don't count the Mosin-Nagant

models older than m1891/30g which were on

stocks and use at the 1939-1945.

EDIT: Older Mosin-Nagants like M1891, M1907

carbine, M1891 Dragoon rifles and Winchester

M1895 were used by Red armys 2nd line troops

and partisan formations. Partisan troops even

used occasionally older Berdan 1871 rifles.

2. M38 Carbine: Produced 1938-1943 about 2 million

rifles.

3. M44 Carbine: Production started at february

1944. Same time M38 Carbine and M1891/30g

production ceased. Numbers of rifles produced

between 1944-1945 is unknown.

4. SVT 38 & SVT40: Svt 38 numbers unknown to me.

Svt40 and Svt40 snipers versions total

production from July 1st 1940 to the end of

1942 was 1 377 000 rifles. Production declined

dramatically after 1942 but continued until

1945. Total production for Svt38 and Svt40 did

not exceed 2 million rifles. (Edward Clinton

Ezell. p: 93.)

All the rifle production declined after 1942-1943

when the production of smg's increased.

5. PPD 34/38: Production between 1934-1939 was

4173 weapons.

6. PPD40: Produced 1940-1941 maximum of 100 000

pieces, propably less than that.

7. PPsh41: Production 1941 was 92 779 weapons,

1942 1 499 269 weapons (Source: Markku

palokangas). Produced between 1941-1945 more

than 5.0 million weapons. (Edward Clinton

Ezell p. 106)

Other questions, I really can't awnser realiably. As far I know, Mihail Kalashnikovs one motivation to invent ak47 was the red armys lack of automatic weapons during the early stages of Barbarossa compared to the wehrmacht. (Edward Clinton ezell p. 104)

As far as I know, soviet infantry doctrine did'nt rely on smg's before the late 1939-1940 when they countered finnish troops using smg's on the fierce battles of Winter war 1939-1940. Finnish troops used smg's as squad support weapon in infantry squads and in small, 4-5 men assault teams in forest battles, night encounter and on counter attacks when attacked enemy fortifications and positions.

Infact, soviet 70 round drum magazine seems to be copy of finnish 9x19mm Suomi smg's drum magazine.

Soviets also had plans in the early 1940s to replace 30% of mosin-nagants in infantry formations. These figures were rarely met in reality. Unfortunatetly, I don't have any source to indicate this information. EDIT: plans to replace 30 % mosin-nagants with SVT rifles.

For your awnser how the soviets equiped their forces on the different borders I cannot really awnser. Propably no one can awnser that, because that kind of information was propably classified as top secret information in the closed, militarized society like soviet union was in the change of 1930's and 40's.

Some conclusions can be made from stories we all have heard, read from books and seen from the movies. Some Soviet formations did'nt have at least too many infantry small arms in stocks at june/july 1941 if one thirds of the men were equiped with rifles, one thirds with rifle ammo and one thirds with molotovs.

[ December 25, 2007, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: winqvist ]

[winqvist]

More information from the book "George Markham: Guns of the reich - Firearms of german forces 1939 - 1945. Arms and armour press 1989."

- "By late 1930s, Russian rifle division were

simply hordes of riflemen rather than the

sophisticated mixture of rifles, automatic and

support weapons that characterized Wehrmacht

equivalents." (Page 28)

- "As more than one Russian commander remarked, a

rifle is a rifle, and the concentration of such

weapons permitted commanders to develop

particular form of warfare; this they did with

increasing skill and the manipulation of rifle

required no sophisticated training. When the

strenght of division fell trough combat or

natural wastage, new riflemen could be provided

from the vast Russian manpower reserve with a

minimum of delay." (page 28)

- "Whether the SVT was ever considered for

universal issue is moot, as it seems to have

been confined to NCOc, snipers and elite units

such as Russian Marines. The jam-prone Tokarev

was too complicated for average russian

soldier's grasp of preventative maintenance;

However in the hands of better trained

Wehrmacht personel, the gas-operated SVT was

much more popular than the 'perfected' Gewehr

41." (Pages 28-29.)

This "elite" theory seems to be realistic. Finnsh troops destroyed Russian Skibrigade of approx. 1800 men, commanded by Colonel Vjatsheslav Dmitrievitsh Dolin, in the fierce forest battles of the Kuhmo region in 12-16.02.1940. This Dolin's skibrigade was formed from 9th, 13th and 34th skibattalions and reinforced with one NKVD company. Brigade was armed with SVT38 and AVS36 rifles, which failed to work in the freezing frost because the factory lubricants of the rifles freezed up.

And finally some lines from PPD40 smg's...

- "German mp38 and mp40 were not only technically

superior to the russian ppd40, rarely seen in

july 1941, but were also available in far

greater numbers." (Page 30)

[Sneaksie]

How about favored allied equipment? Don't you have any doubts about 102mm front hull armor of Shermans-76, thickier than Tiger I? And it's sloped:)

Semi-automatic rifles are more widespread in the game than they were, yes.

[winqvist]

Sorry to say Sneaksie, but allied weapons are not my expertise. I know best soviet weapons and I have some information from German and Finnish small arms.

Im far from expert when talking about Tanks, especially allied tanks. My sources indicate that M4a3e8 (Which might be the same as Sherman 76) had in the thickest areas front hull armor of 96-108 mm and it had extra armor plates added to to the front hull.

This source might not be valid or accurate, but it's best what I have.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/tanks-medium/m4a3.asp

[winqvist]

Hey Uwe, You asked me if I have any information of russian infantry units weaponary during 1941-1945.

I have some info, but I don't have any sources. All the following is "hear-to-say" information and I don't have any proofs for historical accuracy:

1. Russians replaced some mosin-nagants in

infantry squads with ppsh41 smgs during the mid

years of the war. They modified their doctrine

so that Red army concentrated even more for

close combat encounters and they decided to

maximize their short range firepower.

2. Russians formed specialized assault battalions

for assault spearheads, armed only with smgs

and loads of hand grenades. These battalions

co-operated closely with tanks.

3. These exclusive experiments with smgs inflicted

some of probles like the lack of middle and

long range firepower and inflicted a lot of

misfirings and friendly casualties among the

own troops. For these reasons, soviets

increased again the use of rifle caliber

weapons later in the war and this led to the

development of sks45 rifle (with german

influence of StGs of cource.).

[Sneaksie]

Additional armor plates were added in Jumbo versions, in the game there are ordinary 76mm variants. They had armor plate with over 100mm thickness, but it was situated in lower hull and it was less than 30% of front projection Other front hull was sloped ~50mm armor plate.

[winqvist]

Originally posted by Sneaksie:

They had armor plate with over 100mm thickness, but it was situated in lower hull and it was less than 30% of front projection

That might be the same reinforced plate which makes small part of the front hull armor 96-108mm thick. Can't really say. If I remember right, Tiger I had something like 100mm of front hull armor, more than that on front turret mantlet, and little than that in the sides and rear. Not so exceptional especially on late war standards, but good all-around protection, more than enough against low-velocity 75/76mm guns allied used on T34s and earlier Shermans. And of course Tigers armor was excellent on 1942-43 standards when first units appeared to the frontlines.

[Reichenberg]

winqvist, thanks for your information about the the Russian small arms and the change (and partly back) from rifles to SMGs. And as Sneaksie commented already - you were right with the statement, that there are too many SMG in the Russian squads.

Uwe

[winqvist]

Your welcome Uwe. Not only too many smg but too many semiautomatic SVTs also. If we compare the manufacturing numbers (2 millions vs. at least 13 millions), six rifles out of seven should be Mosin -nagants on the russian side. 6:1 Ratio to Mosin-Nagant against SVTs. Now it seems to be that three Soviet riflemen out of four are carrying SVTs in game.

EDIT: Actually "only" half of the Soviet riflemen have SVT's in the formations of 1941.

And to be picky, russian ingame characters should also have their Mosin-Nagant spike bayonets fixed, like their military regulations ordered at that time. Soviet russia didn't bother to manufacture scabbards for the Mosin-Nagant bayonets.

Again Uwe, i'm pleased to help you. I wish to you and all the other people happy holidays, new year moments with TOW. See you at the Forum.

Salute!

[ December 25, 2007, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: winqvist ]

[Freeboy]

sneaksie, type in eastern front footage and see the ten minute youtube bluerb on the use of Tiger ones at 2000 3000 meters against red army armor in 42 43 44 and how until the larger gunned t 34 85 and js 1;s the tigers smply stood off and killed the enemy tanks in large numbers.

BVery interesting bbc, I think. documentary with some great footage.. if you can not find it I will provide the link... it seems silly to talk about what gun could do what at 500 meters in the East.. at least for the heavies... and in the West had the Germans used there armor and troops differently more long range battles would have been fought. a 100 plus mm slopped sherman was still a pile of flaming debris at 2000meters ,far beyound the range its gun could scratch the tigers... Simple numbers and logistics in each front favored the Allies.

[ December 26, 2007, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Freeboy ]

[winqvist]

Hello Everybody.

Time to raise my old topic. I found some new information of soviet formations armed with automatic weapons, especially with smgs. Like i've stated before, soviet formations have way too many smg's in their inventory in the early stages of theater of war. This mistreatment of Germans and favoring of Russians gives too much firepower and unfair edge for the Russians. Last few days i've been playing entirely Russian campaign and I have to say that the Russian firepower is way too high compared to the realistic figures.

D. N. Bolotin 1995: Soviet small arms and ammunition:

-Page 91:

"Mosin-Nagant rifle performed reliably throughout the Great Patriotic War. Though the importance of smg and then assault rifle grew as the war progressed, the effective range of of the former was too short to be universally effectual and the latter was never available in sufficient quanity."

-Page 91:

"Output of Mosin-Nagant rifles and carbines in 1942 exceeded that of Tokarevs elevenfold"

-Page 54. This quote shows the lack of smgs during the early staged of barbarossa, and it also points out that most of the soviet troops were still in 1944 armed with M1891/30 Mosin-Nagants:

"By the beginnig of 1944, therefore, soviet front line troops had nearly 26 times more smg's than had been available three years earlier. It had became possible to arm one platoon in every infantry company entirely with smgs, and one company in every infantry regiment"

Anton Shalito, Ilya Savchenkov & Andrew Mollo 1993: Red Army uniforms of World War II.

-Page 54. Following Quote gives quite exact numbers for smg and rifle rations in different formations in 1943 and beyond:

"Ppsh41 smgs were lavishly issued to the motor Rifles (Tankoviy desant, Tank riders) as the war progressed - 57 smgs and 27 rifles, per company, instead of the normal infantry ratio of 12 smgs and 85 rifles plus nine DP lmgs"

Not all the soviet troops were Tankoviy desant, but incorrectly in TOW it seems to be so! Are all the germans armed like panzerjaegers, waffen SS or Fallschrimjaegers? No way!

I Wonder when the developers will fix this unfair and ridicilous thing and why it was made so to the game in the first place?

Correction? Propably never. In the end, this is a russian game. They have favored their own equipment delirebately and they won't gonna fix it.

[ April 06, 2008, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: winqvist ]