while I was dreaming

[Freeboy]

I was thinking of the tanks / infantry / assualt gun / anti tank gun equation.

I was thinking about the "gun dissabled " hits that are FAR too frequent per hystorical records see other threads re this issue. I was reflecting how with my desire to see this engine mature, it is still a damn fine engine for those with high to higher end machines.

A. If the sighting and variable sighting issues are tweeked, so that even when in a siteable spot non moving troops can vanish,

B. gun hits are done away with

C. a freindly editor for maps including but not limited too non enterable terriegn, ie bocage etc.

I think this game, while differnt from Panzer commander, see MAtrix, while regain the crown held by the first two CM IMO.

[bus]

You got a point.

I think that the possibility to choose where to shoot on targets is a bit detailed. It is slowing down the game.

[Stoppelhopser]

I like the ability to choose which area of a target to hit. Historically the knowledge of weak spots was often used by gunners. I also like how detailed the damage system is.

But Freeboy has a good point. Gun damaging hits are much too frequent. I have seen the occasional photo of a damaged or pierced gun tube. But in TOW it happens in every battle. That IS wrong.

[Gnasher]

Yes, it would be better in terms of game play if only say 30% of hits disabled the gun & for the other 70% of the time accuracy is reduced cumitively by 50% per hit, to similate a hit on the optics of the gunsight. Thus after a few hits in the gun area the crew are either reduced to aiming down the barrel or the gun is eventually disabled. IMO this would work well as a comprimise, & wouldn't stray too far from the realism we've grown to expect from ToW.

[Freeboy]

I did not even mention smoke LOL

Soon, I can feel it in my bones !

For what it is worth,imo cm was a good run and unfortunately failed myself with the third release which was not backward compatable for owners of the first two! PC, see Matrix, is a VERY diverent take on the same ideas found in Tow, somewhat larger scale, but orders structure much differnt.. So, whle I like PC and hope withthe "patched" next release I do not think it compares to TOW...

I like it, I love TOW

Now where did I leave my tiger?

here kitty kitty!

[Sneaksie]

Regarding gun disabling - we don't try to balance something by setting some % for disabling the gun. It's kinda complex modelling, not some probabilities.

Gun is not just simple barrel - it consists of numerous mechanisms in the turret, etc. Because of that a hit into turret side can disable the gun in addition to killing/wounding crewmen.

For example, Panther's gun gets disabled a bit more than, say, T-34s. Why? It's big gun mask occupies entire turret front, and a hit into turret which penetrates the mask will disable the gun. The mask itself is thick (110mm), but if Sherman 76 shoots from close (100-200m) distance it will penetrate it or at least severely damage gun mechanisms and kill crew behind it by internal spalling. And it's difficult to miss at 100-200m even for regular crew... go figure.

It's one of the cases when physics model show it's teeth... we would like to be able to balance it as we please, but it can't be done easily without introducing artificial 'helpers', thus making model accuracy questionable.

[Stoppelhopser]

So this is more than just barrel hits which can't be that common. Thanks for clearing up Sneaksie.

I still have it happening quite often even on big tanks but maybe my engagement distances are too short. Have to play some more .

Some small doubts stay.

Maybe the AI gunners hit this area slightly too well on high experience levels? Maybe the damage model area for some guns is slightly too big?

I also understand that trying to balance out might lead to much worse results and I don't like balancing in historical games. In the ideal world you would feed a physics engine (flight sim or tank sim) with the right numbers and get right results.

On the other hand, factors such as good small unit wireless communication and better visibility in say, german tank cupolas are certainly hard to reproduce convincingly at all.

[Freeboy]

I am not convinced the formulas are correct, I still think, the engine needs to be tweeked and "optics" not just gun dynamics need to be included.

When tigers could stand off at 1500 plus meters and kill "tip your hat to the tiger " 34's all war, this engine seems to have been over "Russianized" giving anti tank and other red army guns FAR too accurate hits. I remember seeing a picture of Wittmans tank, or another tank at VB in Normandy with someware around forty hits, it just kept going before quiting, disabling a gun should be tweekable by adding to the physics model.. stating that the model as a justification does not wash in my book. IF it is so ridged, like the large tank block of space, then perhaps the basic design is flawed?

I am not looking for perfection, just realistic results. At 500 meters sure, but those numbers should not happen as a RULE in the eastern front.

The red army would overwhelm defenses in men and tanks.. assult gun.. if you where running at a German fixed defenses with heavy tanks, "fire brigades" with anything less than a 4 or 5 to one ratio forget about getting through, air and amo being equivalent.. any thoughts this is off should refer to the historical records. All through 42 43 the Germans employed heavy tanks and they where the "stoppers" pretty much untouchable over 1500 meters and GREAT optics and high powered guns, like the dual purpose 88's aa gus allowed far greater accuracy and ranges. This cannot be disputed.

It is even more pronounce via the Allies, save in Normandy where distances should be shortened , but the Engine suffers FATAL eror of no cannot see cannot travel through Bocage. there where raises "walls fence trees" that essentailly stopped armor.

Allong these line if the editor could be enable to make a height differrence. "mini" cliff, five feet or so it could emulate a Bocage by then adding bushes.. simply have the height differnece, along a line. with a small width, then again down so your paralel dimensions creeate a crest with bushes that stop line ove site and mobile movement

ok back to the non dreaming world!

Again, I am not a bitter cm lover of pc freak,just think that to get where it could be these may be issues addressed.