SlapHappy Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 From what I have been able to gather from some research, the US Army employed a satchel charge consisting of 10 pounds of C-4 explosives for an equivalent of 4.5 Kg. Since C-4 is about 1.13 times more powerful than TNT the equivalent resulting warhead is about 5 Kg of HE. That would put it somewhere in between the typical 122m and 150mm artillery shell for equivalent warhead capabilities. The resulting explosive model would be almost entirely a blast effect weapon unless otherwise modified. Or what the game designers designate "splash" range. What would be the desirable "toss range" for such a modelled device? At ten pounds, not particularly far I would imagine. Also, unlike the typical grenade, I would think any "bounce" effect would be negligible. This would (on the surface) one of the more easily replicatable weapons that is not currently modelled in the game. Although a more appropriate in-game graphic would appear to be the most challenging part of the equation, or so it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Hi Slaphappy Well, Most time I read stuff that sometime soldier with satchel usually creep up then armed fuse before or after as place it on tank/bunker then run to place to take a cover. I think it have do with Hollywood movie effect as people see "hero" throw satchel to tank even comic book as see Sgt. Rock do that. LOL as weird to see Sgt Rock pop in my head as I type in. Do you know who Sgt Rock? if not then ask us. Ummmm...how about modeling a Waffen's bundle grenade "gebalte ladung" that I often see in pictures of Waffen soldier hold it in hand in early war. I understand that it is semi-offical as improvised makeshift AT weapon carry. I wonder if it is only carry by pioneer engineer in early which they may had idea how to attack KV tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 I think slinging the weapon a short distance was done. Especially since the satchels I've seen had a strap to facilitate this. Although I'm sure you are right that they were more often than not carefully placed in position then armed. The grenade bundle would have been an early war blast-effect anti-tank weapon. Not a very effective one unless you are talking about use against lighter armor, but then again there was quite a bit of that in the earliest portion of the war. I'm sure it had it's other uses as well. I agree the gebalte ladung should be in the game as well. Quite common. It would give the early war infantry a little more punch as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Oh good reading material: http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/OTHER_AT_WEAPONS1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 9, 2007 Author Share Posted June 9, 2007 The Finns ingenuity seems to have given the Russians fits in the Winter War (for a while anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 I just checked the loadouts for the Germans in the editor. The grenade bundle is already in there ( I hadn't seen it yet). Interestingly enough it has the same blast and fragmentation ratings as the regular (single) m-24, but it is rated as APHE rather than HE ammo type. This will certainly help it's anti-tank capabilities, but won't account for the effects of six vs. one warheads when used against other targets. Needs some tweaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 OK....I just tested the grenade bundles in my "tank trap" ultimate proving ground scenario. Started off with a T-26 since I considered it puny enough to see what the bundles were capable of. Each soldier in the entire squad surrounding the tank with 2 bundles each. Most of the bundles bounced a bit as they were striking the tank directly at the close range. Still, some 25% of them went off directly on or near the tank. Result? Nada. Not one tracked tank in several tests, let alone a destroyed one. No gun damage. Nothing. Ran it like a dozen times. The T-26 has max 15mm of armor. So, assuming that tank was just too tough for these tank-killer bundles, I tried a T-40. Just a bit more of a pushover with even less armor rating. Nothing. No tracking, casualties, nothing. So then I switched to the homely BA-64. 20 grenade bundles more than KO'd the guy in the turret. But again, no wheels blown off, or other damage to the vehicle. That's the equivalent of SEVEN large defensive grenades and 20 of them couldn't take out an armored car. tain't right folks.................just tain't right...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 I see...thank you for test it. I guess CB game are much so diferent that I sometime I feel miss play it. So let's waiting to see what new patches come up to see what can do even maybe add new some new small arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnN Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 There's quite a few missing weapons, but it's difficult to say which ones can be modded and which ones will need the devs to work on. I think one problem with some of these things is that they'd be most useful thrown under vehicles rather than at them (eg teller mines) or are missing the magnetic grabs. Didn't get a chance to continue with my infantry database until yesterday so a bit behind with the new infantry sets, hoping to get a first export done today or tomorrow (without modded graphics). I've also now started on the German uniforms by making a kit of elements that can be combined into different variations and periods. It feels a bit silly doing things like correcting the number of buttons on 1943 tunics considering I mostly play from up high - but why not! Have fun Finn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Does the game include Haft-Holladung (spelling?) magnetic antitank mines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinnN Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Nope, here's a complete list of German infantry weapons in ToW, interesting to see the Faustpatrone (an early Panzerfaust) in there: PzB_39 M_24 (Grenade) MG_34 Luger_P08 MG_42 Walter_P38 Mauser_K98k M_24_(GeballteLadung) (Grenade Bundle) Panzerschreck Faustpatrone Panzerfaust_30 Panzerfaust_60 Panzerfaust_100 Mauser_K98k_Sniper MP_40 StG_44 M_39 ('egg' grenade) PWM (AT grenade) So no Hafthohlladung (or more importantly rifle grenades or other early war anti-tank weapons). I don't think the allies have any equivalent weapons in ToW either, but I could be wrong. Have fun Finn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 Magnetic stuff will be tough. You can model percussive (impact) grenades or timed but not both at the same time. At least I don't think you can. In the DETONATE value (the thing that controls this) there are two values listed side by side for timed grenades. For impact grenades you use -1 value. I just fixed my Gammon Bombs to be impact. They were originally coded to be timed. Turns out their real life counterpart could be either depending on which fuse you used. I'm having a heck of a time balancing the Grenade Bundle, RPG-40, and Gammon Bombs. They are giving the RPG-40 a blast effect of 15000 which was intentionally used because it represents an 20mm penetration effect. That's based on 30000 splash penetrating 40mm. You can see it in the code comments section. The RPG-40 used 795g of TNT for the warhead. The Gammon could be stocked with up to 900g of C4. Yet the Gammon has a rating of only 4050? The German M24 bundle is even worse, given the same penetration as the single M24?? But when I balance the Gammon Grenade to the RPG-40 using a value of 16,950, I'm able to top kill PZKWIV's fairly easily. Who needs a PIAT? Jeff, et. al. Any suggestions for balancing these values? Is the RPG-40 over-modeled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 I've done some calculations and it seems that the game models blast at a rate of 4500 "blast units" per 1 Kg of explosive warhead. With the exception of the RPG-41 which has been tampered to produce a 20mm penetration despite it's warhead size. Does anyone have hard data concerning blast wave effects against RHA armor? I've looked in vain so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 Based on the calculations the game is using it takes 750 grams of TNT equivalent to penetrate 1mm of RHA. This seems a bit high. According to this measure it would take 3.75 Kg to destroy a truck. Time for some more tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted June 11, 2007 Author Share Posted June 11, 2007 Originally posted by SlapHappy: Based on the calculations the game is using it takes 750 grams of TNT equivalent to penetrate 1mm of RHA. This seems a bit high. According to this measure it would take 3.75 Kg to destroy a truck. Time for some more tests. My mistake, it takes 750 "blast units" to destroy to penetrate 1mm of armor. Big difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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