Turn Base/RTS and Grand Strategy

[GI Jas]

I always wondered if your designers there at Battle Front ever considered making a game in the likes of Rome Total War?

I really can't stand to see all these great war games come out with nice graphics, physics, etc. but could be even better, deeper, more rich entailing world domination.

Thoughts.......?

[Salkin]

Check out Combat Mission Campaigns, CMC.

//Salkin

[Hensworth]

You can't have a realistic wargame set in the modern era covering both the grand strategic and the small scale tactical aspects.

Up to about 1850 or so wars were decided by distinct battles, which lends itself to Total War type games.

After that, the influence of each individual tactical engagement upon the outcome of the whole conflict went into sharp decline.

Thus, you can no longer cover both the tactical and the grand strategic in equal and convincing detail once you reach the modern era.

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

I tend to agree with Sgt Kelly on the point of a game that could handle the tactical and the Grand strategic aspects, but i think a more encompassing approach to tactical games such as TOW could be that

no more one off battles in multiplayer. Maybe if possible (and games like this usually attract committed players) a multiplayer design that allows players to fight a campaign. I say this because from experience you might play more then a few games, so really you could be playing a campaign.

Now i know there are some problems with this i.e

* Stable connection

* lag... oh the dreaded lagggggggg

* Time

Some positives

* Fighting over a series of maps

* supply becomes an issue Ammo and troops Need to control roads etc

* Maybe a short diplomacy phase between maps, obvious it would be timed, but allows for the creative players to calculate plans and make the team work together.

* Gives the game and multiplayer a whole different dimension

Im just throwing ideas out there i think its worth investigating because i think its the future 4 WW2 RTS

Imagine playing a game with a dozen others, talking tactics deploying troops formulating plans and committing to achieve a campaign goal over a series of maps. Not just hunt and kill on one map and talking to no-one.

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We cannot enter into alliances until we are acquainted with the design of our neighbours

Sun Tzu

[MorgTzu]

Yes and yes, the more dynamic and involved the campaign (muti and single) the longer life for the game... this has been a special interest for me since Shogun came out...I got into playtesting NTW for MTW, then modding RTW. Though I agree with the RTW concept not working the same for modern warfare..it's only true in a general sense that tactical cannot affect the strategic, but I'm not debating because, again, in general, sgt kelly is right. But I disagree with his opening statement "can't"...this is simply not true...and anyone who has been following the morphing of the CC "niche" genre over the years knows that more involved campaigns (even with their many abstractions de jeur is not only greatly desired but is going to happen. Why wouldn't we one day see a game that would involve several different scales, perhaps with each scale being controlled by different people in multiplayer representing Generals all the way down to Captains and privates representing individuals in FPS mode...all tied together in a sort of MMOG grand server. This may be stretching what can be visualized now... but when I played "Fields of Glory" in 1993, I darn sure coudn't imagine the massive strategic and tactical play of RTW. And none of this is directed at you, sgt kelly in particular, I just know that with TOW, not only are we going to have an enjoyable game(and especially because no "big mass market" companies are involved), but we are seeing the next step in a developement process that began many years ago and does not have to adhere to preconceived limitations or genre stigmas. There is no reason in the world why three years from now TOW couldn't have a strategic or at least operational layer that would rival any dedicated turn based grog game out there.

[Yahoshua]

You could always buy the rights for Axis & Allies from Atari and make something like that.

Pieces move on the board (basically an exact replica of A&A on the comp) and you then play battles in RTS (or comp decision either way).

[GI Jas]

Yes and yes, the more dynamic and involved the campaign (muti and single) the longer life for the game... this has been a special interest for me since Shogun came out...I got into playtesting NTW for MTW, then modding RTW. Though I agree with the RTW concept not working the same for modern warfare..it's only true in a general sense that tactical cannot affect the strategic, but I'm not debating because, again, in general, sgt kelly is right. But I disagree with his opening statement "can't"...this is simply not true...and anyone who has been following the morphing of the CC "niche" genre over the years knows that more involved campaigns (even with their many abstractions de jeur is not only greatly desired but is going to happen. Why wouldn't we one day see a game that would involve several different scales, perhaps with each scale being controlled by different people in multiplayer representing Generals all the way down to Captains and privates representing individuals in FPS mode...all tied together in a sort of MMOG grand server. This may be stretching what can be visualized now... but when I played "Fields of Glory" in 1993, I darn sure coudn't imagine the massive strategic and tactical play of RTW. And none of this is directed at you, sgt kelly in particular, I just know that with TOW, not only are we going to have an enjoyable game(and especially because no "big mass market" companies are involved), but we are seeing the next step in a developement process that began many years ago and does not have to adhere to preconceived limitations or genre stigmas. There is no reason in the world why three years from now TOW couldn't have a strategic or at least operational layer that would rival any dedicated turn based grog game out there.

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-MorgTzu

~MAY YOUR LINES BE STRAIGHT AND YOUR BATTLES DECISIVE~

There is a game out there already like this called "Battleground Europe" and I can say that I'm really addicted to the game play. However, it is a FPS and I'm looking for a TB/RTS with these features. I have found one and this is for all of you, check out a game called "Clash of Nations" and then tell me what you think?

[Sammy_Davis_Jnr]

I have played Battle ground Europe and yes it does have some good dimensions to it that are great...like the chain of command, but as you say GI Jas

'However, it is a FPS and I'm looking for a TB/RTS with these features' GI JAS

Clash of nations i have read and looked at for awhile. The only problem i can say about this game is that its combat system will be based on codename panzer.

they mention this:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=11111

"The second part will put players in a 'real-time' control of the battles that arise in the "MANAGER" phase and will be set within a 3D environment. This will be the "RTS" part of the game, closely resembling that used in the highly acclaimed RTS hit title "Codename: Panzers" will allow players a total freedom of actions and interactions"

I did not enjoy this game because the tanks had health bars..not what i would call realistic. It just seemed very arcade to me personally.

A game that i did enjoy was Soldiers heroes of world war 2 which is also connected with

IC.

As for the point of layering the game. I think the main point is to have a game were multiplayer can exist like WW2 online but play like Soldiers heroes of WW2. TOW looked very similar to SHOWW2 when i first saw it, then i realised 1C is involved with both.

Iam looking forward to TOW but maybe down the track they can look at making these games more then just fighting on the ground (tactical) but bring a true strategic elemment.

[MorgTzu]

I checked out what there is on "Clash of Nations". If it does not slip even further into the vaporware abyss, I wouldn't have much interest in a codename panzer type battle...but, like TOW is a further morphing of CC and what EYSA could have been, it is encouraging that the idea that games should be conducted at simultaneous levels and not just "cross genre" is catching on. TOW would be an excellent base for such an idea.

[Charlie901]

I think that a RTW style of Conquest could work in a Modern Era if it was broken down into specific Campaigns...kinda like the Close Combat series did toward the end.

Many successful Tactical Battles could be carried out in smaller Campaign map areas like the "Battle of the Bulge" or "Operation Barbarossa" with Army Group North's drive to Moscow, thus affecting that particular campaign.

[MorgTzu]

I mentioned it in another thread, but another model to at least consider is "Armed Assault", it's the next evolution of the Operation Flashpoint engine...400 km x 400 km open map, destructable environment..basically a total simulation involving all arms, and other than having maps in the same way a commander would have maps, the strategic and the tactical are all involved in the same space...it would seem that the IL2 engine would be ideal for this. Anyone?

[GI Jas]

I mentioned it in another thread, but another model to at least consider is "Armed Assault", it's the next evolution of the Operation Flashpoint engine...400 km x 400 km open map, destructable environment..basically a total simulation involving all arms, and other than having maps in the same way a commander would have maps, the strategic and the tactical are all involved in the same space...it would seem that the IL2 engine would be ideal for this. Anyone?

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-MorgTzu

~MAY YOUR LINES BE STRAIGHT AND YOUR BATTLES DECISIVE~

Yes, I would agree. Hopefully, developers utilize different game types and take a part from each to create a more immersive war similation.

I have heard about several new games using different game play styles but I remember how I was let down by the late Axis and Allies game that came out though other games seem more hopefull such as "Pacific Storm" which is scheduled for release early next month. This game has similar aspects to what this topic is about.

Moreover, I am looking forward to TOW but I hope in the future that these genre's are mixed and executed to form one immersive WWII game.

[MorgTzu]

GI Jas said:

"Moreover, I am looking forward to TOW but I hope in the future that these genre's are mixed and executed to form one immersive WWII game."

I couldn't have put it better...as more of a hobbyist than a game player, I want a big experience that I might play once a week with buddies, lasting years...TOW might have that potential, but then again...we'll see.

[copenwraith]

thats a awesome idea but smaller like battle of the bulge or operation market garden were you could move around divisions on a map