Frustration

[Zanadu]

A few weeks ago I gave some encouragement to a newbie who was being shot down regularly. Just a run of bad cards, I told him.

Since then I've tried to start up some German pilots. I've played US and British pilots up to several thousand xp, losing a man once in a while. I've played Japanese up to about 60-70 missions, again I only lose one occassionally.

Not with the Germans!!! Every one that gets past about 70 xp is shot down within a few games.

Most recently, my best pilot was killed -- shot down in two successive (for him) games. In the first, his opponant (he was in a '109E) was a Hurri I who seemed to have an endless supply of low IMS cards and attacked head on every turn. In the entire game, he got only three defensive cards, no two of the same type. Every attempt to gain position was countered -- usually before he made it. He never got off a shot.

In the most recent game, his initial hand had no defensive cards at all. The Spitfire I wingman attacked with OOTS cards on three successive turns. Again, he never had an opportunity to fire a shot.

I've deleted by whole German squadron twice now, in sheer frustration. The game may be somewhat addictive, but it's certainly no fun this way, so I'm gonna let it rest for a while, until my blood pressure goes down!!!

[Zanadu]

My determination to stop playing didn't last long. Perhaps I just enjoy pain!!!

I have two German pains with enough xps to fly '109Fs. Neither has completed a mission without at least pilot or wingman damaged. In a total four games using Fs, Pilot and wingman were both shot down on two, the wingman shot down on wone, and the leader damaged on one.

Latest attempt: Fs vs Corsairs. Leader value: 9 for German, 11 for US plus four xtra draws.

Ger. entered at Hi, Corsairs at VH. German initial hand had only ONE defensive card.

Turn 1, corsiar dives and attacks achieves tailing position, uses up German's lone BR card and inflicts hits to just short of damaged. German wing draws nothing usable. German dives to Med. chased by Corsair. Draws NO defensive cards.

Turn two, Corsair wing does nothing. Corsair leader shoots down defenseless German leader.

German former wing plays HLoop and gains tair of Corsair ldr. Fires OOTS3:4. Corsair leader counters with VR.

Turn 3. Corsaid wing attacks with IMS2:D. German former wing plays BR, Corsair wing plays ACE. Game over.

If it was just once in a while, okay, but that's happened twice in four games using the '109F.

[Zanadu]

My latest attempt. Same leader and wingman as last game described, his previous.

Ger in '109F, against P40N. Both at VH.

Ger value given as 9, US leader as 10 plus 3 xtrD

Turn 1: Germ has original hand of one sciz, the rest shooting cards. P40N gains tailing posiion with 2 maneuver cards then plays IMS2:D. German leader shot down without playing a card.

His wingman lasted three more turns.

[Zanadu]

Next effort. The other of my two best Germans.

Values Ger.8, US (P40N) 10 plus 3 extra draws

Turn 1: German attacks with maneuver card, blocked with TT. Fires IMS1:2 head on, countered by VR. US wingman plays IMS3:3 against German wing. Ger. plays TT (only defense card), US Siz., US wing draws xtra and plays IMS2:3. Germ wing shot down.

Ger. leader shot down on turn 3 when US wing plays OOTS 3:4 backed by ACE.

This seems to have gone totally beyond bad luck. It seems that beyond a certain point, the program simply destroys my pilots systematically.

[Guest Mike]

No problems here - I took a couple of my german chaps out for a flight for the 1st time in several months & shot down 4 opponents without ever getting hit.

They were at 330 and 170-ish points.

[Zanadu]

I thought I'd beaten a jinx, but after a few good games, I'm right back to the same thing. My German pilots end up against higher value pilots with a fat bunch of xtra draws, and get smashed like bugs.

I just lost my best German (kia) when he was shot down (along with him wingman) in two consecutive (for him) games.

Turn 1. German at high, with a hand very lite on defense, dives to Med and attacks. HL, OOTS2:3. Beaten by VR. Brit wingman plays four cards (3 plut xtra draw) and uses up ALL of German leader's defensive cards. Brit leader than plays MAN, HL, IMS2:D. German leader killed.

I've kept count of two recent games in a row. Out of 33 cards drawn by my German leaders, only 5 were defense cards (TT, BR, VR, ACE). At one point there wasn't a single defense card in 10 draws.

I suspect that the recent changes in the price for skills has seriously unbalanced the game in the area 300 plus. They're going in with fewer skills against the same level of oppostion. You can't buy much if anything in the way of xtra cards if you want to EVER buy skills under the new, increasing price system. When your opponant is better than you are, and has 5-7 xtra draws besides ... !!

My top pilot (before his death) with a point value of 13-14 was put up against a Brit with a value of 34!! Twice!! The first time he got a Legendary Victory for NOT being shot down.

[Guest Mike]

There haven't been any recent changes in skills tho - not for a few months.

[Zanadu]

I haven't started anyone from scratch in a couple of months. Now I find that the price of getting further skills increases as you increase the number you already have. That wasn't the case when I was doing this the last time, with the Japanese sqd.

The result is that I'm now going up against the same people I could beat 2-3 months ago when I built up my Japnaese sqd., with Germans with fewer skills. Result is, they get beat to death repeatedly. Without a pack of skills, you just can't beat 4-7 xtra draws on top of a set of skills, and with the sliding scale of prices, you can't buy youself even 2-3 xtra draws and still have anything left over to buy skills anytime before the next ice age.

[Zanadu]

I think I understand what's going on. Since I did my Japanese Sqd. the price list for skills has been put on a kind of telescoping scale to discourage buying every possible skill for every pilot. All of my Japanese, US and Brits are at that point already, and have been for a least a few weeks, since before this change. When I noticed it, I assumed it was part of the most recent update, as I hadn't purchased a skill in some weeks.

Since I'm starting the Germans from xp 0, buying additional skills is much more expensive after the first two or three, under the new arrangement. As the pilot's xp total goes up, his average opponant gets tougher and tougher, but since his skills don't improve as quickly anymore, and improve less and less quickly as his xp's increase, you reach a point where the average opponant is so tough that even a very mild run of bad luck drawing cards -- the kind of thing you can have three or four games in a rwo -- gets you wiped out instantly.

I think the values set for the opposing pilots need some work.

[Guest Mike]

You must have started your japs ages ago - I can't remember a time when skill costs didn't go up for hte permanent skills as you got more of them - maybe in hte beta?

[Zanadu]

I got the game when it was formally launched. Never did the beta. My US and Brit pilots have about 130 missions each. The Jap. about 70, and run around 3000 xp. They have all the skills listed.

Any if you can go up against an opponant with twice as many skills, and seven xtra draws and win consistantly, your a better man than I am, Gunga Din.

[Zanadu]

My highest ranging Japanese pilot, Amagasaki (I borrowed the name from a comedy relief character in the Tenchi Muyo anemi) has 3074 xp. He has all the skills except 'target pilot'. Started him a few weeks ago.

Started my Germans about 2 weeks ago, maybe less. My top pilot, Kepple, has 373 xp and currently has four skills (besides escape death). The skill purchase prices for him are currently: Quick Reflexes - 256, Redline - 205, Power Dive - 133. If he gets a fifth skill, then those prices go up to 544, 436 and 283 respectively. More than doubling in cost. Assuming that the prices continue to double (or more) each purchase, it will cost about 3000 xp just to purchase those three for Kepple.

Clearly there has been a serious increase in the price, or the purchase system somewhere.

[Guest Mike]

As far as I can remember it's always been that way.

My top pilot is "Algy" - a Brit. He has about 35000 EXP IIRC, of which 10,000 or so are unspent. His next skill will cost something like 20 or 30,000.

I have another pilot who will get his next skill at 4400 or so - he's currently on about 3900 unspent points, but spends 40-50 on extra cards and redraws every game so is moving up slowly

the best way to get Exp is to run escorts where the opposing pilots start arounf 2/3rds you skill level.

However for Algy it's a bit of a nonsense - the highest points of any AI pilot is 49 or so, Algy's about 500 - yet those 49 point pilots often have a more impressive skill set than he does, since they haven't got 35000 points that has mostly been spent on "Draw an extra card"!!

[SamF7]

"but spends 40-50 on extra cards and redraws every game so is moving up slowly"

Interesting comment. My most advanced pilots for all sides are at about 500-600XP. With all nationalities, I've found that the progression goes pretty much like this :

* At start, things go "okay". I got shot down every 5-10 missions or so, but usually it's not fatal two times in a row.

* I hoard my XP points. I buy NOTHING. No cheap skills, no extra cards, no redraws. My first purchase is ALWAYS one of the biggies, Redline, Quick Reflexes, etc. I figure if I don't buy these early, I'll NEVER get them later.

* Once I buy the first skill or two, My pilots generally go on a RAMPAGE. I'm talking the next 400xp or so comes VERY easily. My boys just seem to pwn everything in the sky.

* Again, I buy NOTHING but skills during this period - no extra cards, no redraws, etc.

* And then.....well.....no matter what nationality, no matter what plane I'm flying, once my guys hit about 500-600XP, I hit a wall. I start to get shot down. A lot. I actually lose a pilot once in a while.

* Each time I'm shotdown, however, it always seems to follow the SAME pattern : I get dealt ALL fire cards at the start (my record is nine in my starting hand. NINE), and the NME invariable goes first, loops me, then pops me with the DESTROYED card. BOOM. Dead Plane. Turn one. Always.

I'm figuring that once the AI pilots start getting 3-7 extra cards, maybe it's time to start filling my hand with the same. 2-3 redraws, 2-3 redraws. I've even been buying a bloody vertical loop to help with the "first turn - all fire card blues". It's been helping - I haven't lost a pilot in awhile, but boy, the XP sure comes a lot more slowly when you have to buy all that bloody stuff every round.

SamF7

[Zanadu]

To SamF7: Will try your system of holding out for a high priced skill first. Can't work much worse.

Stalin: Yes, with my developed pilots I play mostly escort for that reason, and the usual load of consumables is: leader: ACE, 7x extra draw, 5x redraw, Wing: 6x extra draw, 8x redraw.

I've not done escort with my Germans because so far they've not been consistantly successful on interceptions, doesn't give me confidence taking on two opposing pairs when they can't handle one reliably, and in escort you LOSE xp's big time if you fail to protect the bombers.

[Zanadu]

Well, my current top GErman was shot down again. Same old -- same old. Hoplessly over matched. Rating of 14 vs a rating of 18 plus 5 xtra draws.

Obviously, the opponants were set up under the original purchase system, and have far more skills than a developing pilot with the same xp's available for purchase.

I estimate that an opponat of equal rating is at least 50 % more effective by the time you get to a rating of 12-15. An opponant 4-5 points higher is at least twice as effective.

As I said before, the game balance has a serious problem.

[Guest Mike]

Originally posted by SamF7:

I haven't lost a pilot in awhile, but boy, the XP sure comes a lot more slowly when you have to buy all that bloody stuff every round.

Yes it does - I have no realistic prospect of ever getting more skills for my top pilots!!

I did once susggest that gettign extra cards and redraws should be a permanent skill that could be upgraded - eg you might buy "draw 1 extra card" for 100 pts, be able to upgrade it to 2 extra cards for 100, then to 3 extra cards for 200, etc., and similar for redraws, but that didn't get adopted.

Having to restock extra draws and redraws for every game is a bit tiresome.

[SamF7]

SO - just out of curiosity, how many redraws and drawcards do you have your top pilots fly into combat with?

I know I'm a stingy SOB, so my top boys get a whopping x2 apiece. I still DREAM of another skill or two !

Also, do you ALWAYS fly with a bought ACE card? Those things are EXPENSIVE. I've been trying to get away with a VR.....but VR doesn't really stop a LOOP very well, does it?

SamF7

[Zanadu]

Back where this started. I've managed to get some Germans up into the 400s and even one into the 500s, but that just means that the AI a/c have that much greater advantage in capabilities.

I've gotten pretty tired of getting hammered by opponants with hopelessly superior capabilities. I suppose I'll just play what I've got until their dead, then go back to the US, Brit & Japanese pilots I developed before the change in skill purchase rules.

Not much point in getting the expansion pack as far as I can seen, unless you just enjoy getting beaten up. If something is done about the game balance -- say, by refiguring the point value of the AI opponant a/c, let me know.

[Guest Mike]

Sam I usualy buy up to the 16 pt extra card for my leader, nd the 12 pt one for wingmen. Leaders can only use a maximum of 5 redraws, as they only draw once perturn, so any more than 5 is investment for the next game.

Wingies can use a lot more redraws tho - concievably they might get as many as 28 draws in a game if they get attacked by every enemy every turn!! so I usually hold 9 or 10 or more for them.

Yes I ALWAYS buy an Ace - it is 9 pts IRC, which is a trivial cost when you've got thousands spare!!

[Inigo Montoya]

Just to weigh in that I do Sam's method of no cards at all and saving XP to buy Quick Reflexes, then Redline, then Marksman, then Power Dive.

Once I have Power Dive (saving to High Peformance), I start purchasing cards just as Stalin's O does (only my limit is 12 instead of 16 for my leader). I always get an Ace at this point too.

Important caveat to the above, if I have lost my Escape Death, I play *ultra* conservatively. What I do is select 1v1 dogfight and start at Very High altitude. Even if I'm saving for expensive skills and haven't officially started buying cards, I get Ace Pilot and 2 Draw Extras and 2 Redraws. On my first turn I discard damage cards and draw hoping for defensive cards. I don't worry at all about trying to kill - all I want to do is live because you get a 20% chance of respawning your ED if you simply survive. More importantly, if you live you don't have a chance to permanently die.

The Germans are very hard to level in that middle area. I remember it well. There's a time when you are facing hurricane II's or worse and all you have is the cruddy Karl. But once you are in the Fw-190 life couldn't be sweeter. It's all about delayed gratification!

[Guest Mike]

I completely agree with Inigo's comments about what to do when you have lost "escape death" - the only thing to pay for then is to stay alive and get it back.

190's are easy meat tho!

[SamF7]

Hurricane II's - I really HATE that plane.

It has blown apart most of my hi end aces - a truly evil plane.

My Brit pilots obtained "Marksmanship" early....and the top brit has quickly advanced and is currently piloting the Hurri II.

Hurri II + Marksmanship = SWEET, sweet revenge.

SamF7

[Guest Mike]

didn't work for you last night tho!!