Logistics...

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I think most of the grognards here appreciate the

role that logistics plays in a successful

campaign (or unsuccessful-Barbarossa e.g.).

I was wondering how logistics would be covered in

SC2. My main concern is that logistics seemed to

be "free" during a campaign (i.e. you don't

expend MPPs for unit actions, MPPs only come into

play when you operate a unit, or when you repair

it after it has taken battle damage).

Hence, to use the Eastern Front as an example, the

Germans in 1942 simply did NOT have the logistic

capacity to do a front-wide offensive, and had to

put most of their efforts into the south. Will

you then have to pay MPPs for any/all unit actions

other than operating, or will some other scheme

be present to properly represent the costs

involved (yes I know about Infrastructure tech)?

John DiFool

[Shaka of Carthage]

Hmmm... I understand what you are saying, but we seem to have a disconnect on what "logistics" means.

From your post, you relate it to the expenditure of MPPs.

The SC model relates it to your supply value, which in turn, controls your readiness percentage.

If we think of supply as water flowing from the capital to all of the cities, its a little easier to illustrate my problem with it. Currently, other than some partisans in Russia or Yugo, the water flow is infinite. The only constraint is if partisans damage the faucet in a specific city.

I'd rather see there be a limit to the water source. As units perform movement or combat, then they consume more water, than if they are on the defensive. Then, the concept of spending MPPs to refill or increase the water supply makes sense. Would also mean, that if you didn't plan ahead and fill that water tank high enough, you won't be able to conduct as many offensives (or any) as you like, because you can't supply them. And this eliminates the need for all those other things game systems use to represent this flow of supplies... like supply units, O-Chits, Special Actions, BRPs for campaigns, etc.

And now, you have the other reason (besides reconnaisance), that aircraft exist... to perform interdiction, shutting down the flow of supplies to combat units.

Very easy to do with a computer.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

You pretty much got it, yes.

JD

[Desert Dave]

Seems to me you BOTH are onto something here. :cool:

Alright, you have to account for momentum, or otherwise known as... initiative.

Currently, "plunder" is the one mechanism to mostly account for that... elan, or martial spirit that propelled the Germans deep into a stricken Russia.

Accumulate enough surplus war materiel, and you are able to undertake a gargantuan effort, as Napoleon did when he stood in awe at the icy gates of Moscow.

BUT. Where is that... "rude awakening," or the grit in the gears of the free-wheeling Panzers?

Good to have a mechanism to help the Germans get the Mean Momentum Machine underway, but on the opposite side, what is there to blow the shrill whistle and call a halt?

OK. There WILL be brakes on this initiative.

1) No more Uber units. Experience will be modeled in a different way so that it will NOT be so decisive. No longer will you be able to withstand countless blows from ineffectual Red recruits (... and, the tiles will help here, since there will be more angles of attack)

2) Germans may be accomplished at "the Blitz," but now that there are build limitations, there is decided need to secure the interior lines. Russia's force pool will have many, MANY Berserkers allowed... amassed infiltrations and partisan activity will likely blunt this forward thrust. A little.

3) Air Power will not be so obvious or decisive.

4) Somewhat compromised German Industrial Economy, in that there will be built-in limits (... which can be edited as a kind of "play balance tool for both HtH and solo play).

5) Winter effects.

Well, there are other limiting factors, as well.

But, that "river of supply" and the logistics in general could also be a way to "moderate" some of the unchecked momentum ?

May not be a worrisome issue, once full play-testing is under way.

But, it is something to keep in mind... as a way to insure that initiative does NOT last forever.

At some point, the forward leaning Panzers (... or, the Shermans and T-34s later in the war) just... sputter, and run out of gas.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Well, as a thought, why not simply eliminate plunder as a MPP value, and let plunder increase the water (ie supply) tank?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Well, my original thought was either

A) Unit actions would cost MPPs (even standing

still/in port perhaps has a small cost)

You would have to spend MPPs to maintain an

abstract sort of "supply reserve" which would then

be expended when units perform actions.

Plunder then would add to the supply reserve. And

while I am suspicious of anything which reeks of

micromanagement, all you would have to do is make

sure that your supply pool is adequate for you to

do whatever it is you want to do in your turn.

Perhaps the last action of your turn would be to

buy supply points for use during the next turn

(including your enemy's turn, as in when he

forces your units to defend).

I'm not sure we want or need supply depots tho.

Perhaps nothing more complicated than one depot

per front/continent. _shrug_

John DiFool, in brainstorm mode...