Post-France liberation command list

[Korut Zelva]

Since Gamelin and cie shouldn't be around after liberation

The france command list could have 2-3 new HQ available

how about

Marie Pierre Koenig - Rating 5-6?

Koenig served as Free French delegate to supreme Allied headquarters under General Dwight D. Eisenhower. In 1944 he was given command of the Free French that took part of the Normandy Invasion.

De Gaulle - Rating 6?

Just because he's awesome, now if there's no event that would give you a De Gaulle after France fall, he could make it into the buying list

2 HQ should be enough but if he had to stretch it to three...

Leclerc - Rating 5-6?

Well, just because of name recongnition

Discuss

[Edwin P.]

De Gaulle, a 6?

He did not have much combat experience during WWII, nothing that compares to the other generals of the period. At the most I would give him a 5.

[JerseyJohn]

Leclerc was a very able field commander. His march across the Sahara to join the 8th Army is one of the war's epic accomplishments. I'd give him a 6 rating.

De Gaulle was also a very able field commander as he demonstrated in France 1940 where his counterattack against Guderian was doomed from the start by others, yet he nearly succeeded. Additionally, he was a leading voice for reform and improvement in the French Army before the war. I'd give him a 6 as well.

In the old French Army, Francois Bilotte was clearly superior to both Weygrand and Gamelin, both of whom should have long before been retired. I'd give Bilotte a 6 also. Weygrand might have been good if he'd been appointed from the start but the situation was truly hopeless when he arrived on the scene. The only French general that we know for sure was completely out of it was their highest commander in 1940, Gemelin.

[Korut Zelva]

Yeah I agree on De Gaulle. I had in mind stuff he wrote before the war about the use of armor, forshadowing the use of the blitzkrieg.

Found out Bilotte seemed to be still in the picture for the free french, so he could make a return

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Billotte

Seriously wounded in the countryside of France, he was made prisoner in Poméranie, he escaped and gained the USSR where he was interned until the moment of the German attack. It becomes then representing free France in Moscow. With other French, he was exchanged against Russian citizens and embarks in Arkhangelsk on a boat which enables him to gain London.

Billote is then is a chief of staff of and secretary General de Gaulle of the committee of national defense in London. Brigadier general, it unloads in Normandy with the head of the armoured brigade of Leclerc division. He takes part in the release of Paris and captive fact von Choltitz.

I guess this means we can drop one between Koenig, De Gaulle or Leclerc

[ May 13, 2005, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Korut Zelva ]

[JerseyJohn]

Kurot,

Yes, I think Charles De Gaule would have proven a great general if he'd been able to fill that role throughout the war rather the largely political functions he was forced to take on.

I fear we're talking about two different generals. The one with the HQ in SC was Gaston Billotte (I mistakenly called him Francous earlier). He was the commander of the Allied forces in the Low Countries, 1940. He died as a result of a car accident during that campaign.

Naturally in game terms that doesn't mean he can't still be included. The real Italo Balba was killed in an anti-aircraft mishap at Tobruck very early in the war but is still available in the game.

Here's a bio of Gaston Billotte:

Frankrig, 1875-1940

Fransk general. Chef for 1. armégruppe.

Flandern, 1940

Gaston Billotte was born in Sommeval, France in 1875. After graduating from St. Cyr in 1896 he joined the naval infantry. He made steady progress in the French Army and in 1930 became commander of all troops in Indochina.

In 1937 Billotte was appointed as military governor of Paris and on the outbreak of the Second World War was given the command of the 1st French Army Group. After protecting the Maginot Line his troops into Belgium during the Western Offensive. On 12th June he was made head of all Allied troops in Holland. When the Dutch surrendered two days later, Billotte ordered all Allied troops to withdraw to the Escaut River.

Soon after leaving a conference with General Maxime Weygand at Ypres on 21st May 1940, Billotte was involved in a car accident. Gaston Billotte died after two days in a coma.

[Korut Zelva]

Thanks for clearing that out. Indeed, in the link I posted it said Pierre was the son of Gaston but I missed it on first reading.

However, now the question-> should the Billote son be included to remplace De gaulle in the list (since he was mostly a political figure anyway)

[JerseyJohn]

My pleasure, and thanks for providing that link, I really enjoyed reading the article.

I don't think it's too important about whose names goes on them. Probably it's okay to figure Free France as having two HQs, one 6 and the other 5. It didn't really have any generals with historical roles equivalent to army group commander so most of it would be speculation.

I'm not sure how many troops they raised from D-Day till the end of the war, but if an HQ can handle up to five armies, I'd say even one HQ should be adequate but it would be good to have a second HQ in case, after being liberated, the war drags on to it's time limit.

[Korut Zelva]

100,000 Free French soldiers fought on the Allied side in Italy in 1943. By the time of the Normandy Invasion, the Free French forces numbered more than 400,000 people, thus reaching a strength roughly equal to that of the Polish Army. The Free French 2nd Armoured Division, under General Philippe Leclerc, landed at Normandy and eventually led the drive towards Paris. The Free French 1st Army, under General Jean de Lattre de Tassigny, joined the Allies' invasion of southern France and took Alsace.

By September 1944, the Free French forces stood at 560,000, which rose to 1 million by the end of 1944, and were fighting in Alsace, the Alps and Brittany. By the end of the war in Europe (May 1945), the Free French forces comprised 1,250,000, including 7 infantry and 3 armoured divisions fighting in Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_France

Oh Wikipedia, is there something you don't know?

[JerseyJohn]

Excellent post.

It's true the Free French had a lot of people active but what I'm saying is the largest they went up to in the field were army sized units. To me that's splitting hairs, though. Presumably a capable army commander would be similarly capable commanding an army group.

So how many HQs do you suggest for Free France?

I'd say three is a good realistic maximum, same as has been alloted for the Third Republic.

-- A maxed Army Group in game terms would be about 500,000 troops.

One thing to be wary of when seeing numbers cited is that a large % is always involved in non-combat roles. Sometimes, as in the case of resistance fighters, they may not even be military in nature and would probably not end up in an army. An example would be those overaged and underaged who gathered and passed along information on occupying forces.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

De Gaulle, a 6?

He did not have much combat experience during WWII, nothing that compares to the other generals of the period. At the most I would give him a 5.

That does not mean he deserves a bad rating.

I don't know about De Gaulle. But a lot of people are born leaders and will be much better leaders than someone who has been for 20 years. De Gaulle sure knew the French military was outdate and no one would listen.

Take Napoleon, he was a genius from day one.

[Edwin P.]

Thats true, but the amount of combat experience and time in rank DeGaulee had was lacking in comparison to many other leaders of the time. In my view he was more of a political leader than a military one.

As for Napoleon he was a captain, then a Brigadier General and then in charge of the Army of Italy, which lead a series of battles such as; Montenotte, Mondovi, Arcola and Rivoli, where he proved himself as an excellent commander and tactical genius. He had the experience and record of victories which DeGaulle lacks.

I find it hard to justify awarding a 6 to DeGaulle, who served as Brigadier general in a combat role for under 2 months - May thru June 1940.

Getting back to topic, I would like to see a chance; perhaps 10%, 1 in 10 games, for the capital of France moving to Algiers when Paris is taken, instead of the Vichy Option occuring. This is what DeGaulle argued for.

"On June 6, 1940, Premier Paul Reynaud, who for many years had championed de Gaulle's ideas in the Chamber of Deputies, appointed him undersecretary of state for war. De Gaulle was one of the few in the cabinet to resist surrender and to propose that the government withdraw if necessary to North Africa to continue the struggle."

If this happens the French should receive a Free HQ unit; DeGaulle, in Algiers.

Germany would not receive plunder from France until Algiers is taken. The result is a race by both sides; Axis and Allied, to Algeria and a dramatically changed opening game.

I do agree with JerseyJohn that Billote was clearly superior to both Gamelin and Waygand, and his rating should be increased to a 5 in SC2 with Gamelin remaining a 3 and Waygand a 4.

[ May 14, 2005, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Korut Zelva]

That's why the division info is good to appraise the number of people involved. I don't know how much division a SC army unit represents thought.

Yeah 2-3 HQ was what I had in mind. Two should be enough. It's not like theirs a lot of person that would be eligible anyway to be HQ worthy. I'd prefer not to stretch it too much. As much as I like De Gaulle, he's been more a political leader.

I'd narrow it to two among the following

Pierre Billote (the son)

Jean de Lattre de Tassigny

Leclerc

Marie Pierre Koenig

[Blashy]

Germany would still receive some plunder IMHO.

You take ALL of the France mainland you should get at least 50%-65% of the plunder. The rest would have been moved but you can't move a whole countries resources, not like France's anyways.