As my last attempt at posting has gone wrong - here goes for my second shot!

[Mark Gallear]

A plea for the T-28 to be added in the next patch and some questions on T34 and KV availability and rarity, plus a few other features I would like explained or added to the next patch!

I was a bit surprised by the inclusion of the T-34 and KV tanks from the start of the war but after doing some checking I decided the CMBB introductory dates were not far off.

The first KV-1 was encountered only three days after the invasion by the German Army Group North and the first T-34 was encountered on July 8 1941 – although game has three different T-34 available from invasion start in June.

I have seen various estimates for numbers of T-34s at war beginning from a few hundred still undergoing trials to a around 1000 operational. So depending on your source the T-34 could potentially be encountered in June. However everybody agrees they were very small part of the total tank force.

The game has the T-34 appears in June – T-34 M1940 & 41 only 20% rarity (not a very big rarity or penalty) and the version with cast turret 50%. This seems to make the T-34 a fairly common tank in T-34 especially compared with the KV, which was actually, encountered - KV-1 1940 30%, KV-1 1939 tank at 80% rarity, KV-2 65% rarity.

I don’t have any data to hand but would assume that the KV-1 1039 was the more common tank because it had been operational longer, rather than rarer because it was been replaced.

How does battlefront determine rarity?

I must make a plea for the inclusion of the T-28 – which must have been a more common ubertank at the start of the war than the T-34 or the KV. OK it is a multiple turreted tank and I have been told that the system can not cope with such tanks. (I will accept you cannot do T-32/T-35.) Can there not be a fudge the two MG turrets – must have had less than 180 rotation – so why the need to treat them as turrets. The big problem with multi-turret tanks is that commander cannot control all the turrets – this is a good excuse to let the AI fire the turrets at whatever target it wants. Please, please can we have it in the patch.

I noticed that the 81mm mortar is 41 points but the German 81mm is 33 points and Italian offboard 81mm mortar battery is only 53 points – how is this calculated?

A very big moan is that the a points game gives you some information such as amount woods etc, but not other critical information such as is it day or night, fine or snow and if memory serves me correctly if it is an encounter or defence game. Opponents rarely, tell you this information any more. Please can we have this info added to the start screens in the next patch, please…. please!

Many thanks for taking the time to read my moans and questions.

[Foxbat]

There were indeed almost a thousand T-34s in June 1941 (against 500 T-28s), the reason that the germans didn't immediatly blunder into them is because they weren't stationed at the border not because they weren't in production (would be hard to have a 1940 model in that case ).

The T-34 may have been a small part of the tank force (30.000 tanks! in total) but bthat didn't mean there were few, or that the T-28 was any more common.

The bulk of the tanks were lights. Mostly T-26s & BTs with a couple thousand recce tanks thrown in for good measure.

[ December 11, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Foxbat]

Oh and there were only 500-something KV's at the start of Barbarossa, making it the "rarer" tank by quite a margin.

[Mark Gallear]

So Foxbat are you agreeing with me that T-34 introduction date should be July not June?

[Soddball]

I think it's pretty unlikely that any further models would be included in the game, although I can see the merits of including the T-28. What about if the MG turrets were fixed with a front arc only, the same as the bow MG on most tanks? That might be an acceptable workaround - although if (as is being muttered) the Mediterranean theatre is to be done next we may well see multi-turreted tanks in that.

[Mark Gallear]

I think the arc of fire of the MGs is just to the front - and to one side. As you could only see the barrels in a Juju mod - I don't see why they have to move - arcs such as this must have been worked out for pintle MGs, etc.

I am still hoping somebody in high places will think oh we could have done that anyway and say make it so!

[rune]

Mark,

I do not know where you got the July information from, but I have seen records where the germans state they ran up against them in June. The russian themselves state that there was a counter attack using at least 181 t34s on June 26th. Valera also states there were T34s at the front before that. Here is the web page:

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_3.html

Rune

[Mark Gallear]

I tried to find my Zaloga russian Tanks of WW2 as I rember this source stating that russian numbers of T-34s were low at the begining of 1941 around 100 and were still undergoing trials when war broke out.

The source is my rather old Douglas Orgill T-34 Russian Armour - apparently the 17th Panzer Division the banks of the Dniepr on 8th July were the first to note the new tank. Your source says the offensive began on June 26th - which may be diffrent from them actually been in action and there may have been long range engagements in which the Germans did not notice the new tank - or my source could of course be completely wrong and not found an earlier sighting.

Hogg Allied Armour of World War Two tries to be as vague as possible.

Russian T-34 Profile AFV Weapons Jm Brereton and Major Michael Norman, RtR says that numbers of russian Tanks in 1941 are guestimates at best.

Your source - Russian? Clearly goes into some depth with Russian figures of the time and points out the trouble with pinning any figures down - although I appluade its efforts - the best i have seen.

[Hortlund]

I thought the Germans ran into T-34s on day two or three down in the south? I cant remember the place right now Radzwicou..something? I'll check my sources and get back to you.

[rune]

Yes, that source is definitely Russian.

I have the same thing, like the 22nd or 23rd was the first run in. I didn't want to say the date as I was trying to find my source.

Rune

Here I found one source:

In July 1942 the factory recieved the first blueprints of the T-34, and the first production model from Uralmashzavod was called "Comrade Stalin". The T-34 came as a sad surprise to the Germans when they encountered them in quantity in July 1941. (Even if the T-34 engaged the Germans for the first time on June 22nd at Gorki).

http://www.thehistoryof.co.uk/World_War_2/Weapons/T34_Tanks.html

Rune

[ December 11, 2002, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: rune ]

[Mark Gallear]

I surrender on the June T-34 (Although I still think they should be much rarer in this month than they have so far been set. (I thought Gorki was just outside Moscow – Germans got there Dec!! Although I am sure you will all prove me wrong on this one as well.)

Ok you have all successfully taken attention away from my moans and wants list!

More info on points games such as encounter/defend, weather, time of day, even if set randomly I think it should tell you before you buy and not afterwards!

A T-28 – pretty, pretty please!

Separate heads for Axis and Russians – the winter mod makers will love you! More pretty, pretty, pleases!

Slight rethink on rarity and points cost – why the expensive Italian 81mm mortar, cheapish T-34 in June 1941 etc. (I never give up! )

[ December 11, 2002, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[rune]

Mark,

I do have another source saying it was Grodno. I wonder if someone typo'd on the city name.

I am afraid if I mention the T28 one mroe time to Steve and Charles, they will come out of the mountains on Steve's weasel to hunt me down. They WILL hunt me down if I mention the Spanish Blue Division yet again. hehehehehehe

Rune

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Mark Gallear:

So Foxbat are you agreeing with me that T-34 introduction date should be July not June?

No not really, they did meet the occasional T-34 in the first week of combat and there were major ops in the month of June that involved T-34s so June is right.

It just took time to filter up through the intel channels, and the russians for their part obviously had little incentive to brag about the availability of the T-34 0bertank at the start of the war seeing how they were simply swept aside without the germans actually giving them much notice at all. Remember as long as they thought the T-34 would turn out to be the russian equivalent of the Mathilda/Char B-1bis alarmbells weren't going off just yet.

As for the mortars, I have no idea.. except the russian mortar is actually a bigger calibre at 82mm

But since the german and russian mediums are pretty equal it shouldn't be to hard to see what makes them different. I vaguely remember russians shells to be thinner walled, so maybe they have a higher blast value?

[Mark Gallear]

Go for Rune it - wrap it up in Christmas paper with bells and holly and good cheer!

Spanish Blue Division mod has been done - doubt a T-28 mod will be possible.

[ December 12, 2002, 06:09 AM: Message edited by: Mark Gallear ]

[Mark Gallear]

Some more moans and wants have occurred to me:

Can we have the hidden unit icons properly mirrored in the next patch - so they are the right way round in the game. I know I have mods out to fix this – but only a small minority of CMBB players visit my site.

I know you will not want to fix this one even if you could but can you limit the Russian SMGs in German use to the Recon units only and give a few MP40s to Russian Recon units from 1944 – this would be a lot more realistic and it would stop bugging me every time I play German.

[manchildstein (ii)]

t-34s were encountered in late june around dubno