Dandelion Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Ok, anybody know what model the US Carbines were that reputedly were sent to Crete in 41? Beevor claims that 3500 American carbines arrives to Crete as armament for the Crete reserve division being raised there after the defeat on mainland Greece. There could be no British arms sent due to German bombingraids in Midlands having knocked out small arms production, it says. I've tried to let it go, but I can't sleep. What carbines were these? Creten reservists with M1's? Yours Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 This source: "Greek ground forces in Crete and their small arms, Nov 1940 - May 1941" by Alexis Mehtidis http://orbat.com/site/history/open4/GreekGroundForcesinCreteandTheirSmallArmsrev.pdf suggests there was a misunderstanding, and they were "probably British 0.303 Nº 3 Pattern 14 built in the U.S.A. -hence ´American type´-" (in page 6, under Gendarmerie). Who knows? Either one, another addition to a logistical nightmare. - - - Off topic, note the use of the infamous "Chauchat" LMG. Regards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Hmmm. . . AFAIK, the US Army did not begin receive production M1 Carbines until mid 1942, so I find it rather unlikely that there would have been enough of the weapons in 1941 to send any significant amount to Crete. It is more likely that the firearm in question is the M1903 Springfield. There was a carbine version of the Springfield produced between the wars. I've never heard of the carbine version being used by the US military, but it's possible that some special formations of the US Army were equipped with it (maybe mountain infantry or cavalry?) and so there we enough lying around in 1941 to send a bunch over to Crete. Just a guess, but I can't think of any other likely possibilities. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 1950s sources refer to SMGs as Machine-Carbines. Might therefore refer to Thompsons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 I say, that must be a record in fast-answer-to-an-extremely-obscure-question. Many thanks. I didn't know about the bad rep of the Chauchat either. Had to look it up to understand what you meant. It said the Chauchat is regarded as one of the major engineering failures of history. Reminds me of the German counterpart: the "08/15", so famed for never working properly that the number combination is still usable for anything hopelessly misconstructed. The author in the Cretan document has a cool style, I'm not sure if its underlying humour of if he simply has refined manners. I particularly like the formulation "after the failure of the uprising the Cretans were asked to return their weapons to the authorities". Apparently some regretfully declined. I can just picture the scene Thanks again; Paco, I'm working my way through Beevors book on Crete and I always get annoyed when he leaves loose threads hanging like that. I couldn't help but peaking into your profile there, I'm afraid, and thus am kind of hoping you'd be able to help me out on another Beevor book, that on the Spanish civil. If you feel this topic is uncomfortable, I'll not insist. But I am looking for a qualitative OOB and TOE for the forces involved, and I have such a vague notion of uniforms and personal equipment of either side that any such source, even a less qualitative one, would be very valuable. Do you know of any good ones on the net? Regards Dandelion [ August 19, 2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Dandelion ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dook Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 The following account of an Australian soldier on Crete in 1941 suggests that there were American rifles distinct from American-made Lee Enfields used. Later on Crete, our Lee Enfield Rifles were taken from us and given to the Infantry and we were issued with a collection of American Rifles such as Remington, Winchester and another make that eludes me, but all were in the same pattern except for the engraved name and fitted with a bayonet that was not worth the trouble to make. Ill fitting and if you tried a couple over a fire to singe a bit of meat, they bent like bananas, not like the Lee Enfield which would have probably supported a Sheep. For the full text, see this site. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 That sounds suspiciously like the Springfield, which was indeed made by a variety of American manufacturers during both wars, with no substantial differences between guns coming from various manufacturers other than the nameplate. Cheers, YD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Could this be the culprit then? I see no bayonet attachements but it is presented as the rare 1903 carbine (and sold for 40 000 dollars! That Australian soldier might have been a bit more grateful). Regards Dandelion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Well, that's a 1903 Springfield Carbine all right. I don't know whether it ever came with a bayonet lug, but such a lug could easily have been removed at somepoint. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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