Heartland Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: Now that's perception for you 15-20 minutes isn't long?Well, that wasn't what I think, it's from an interview with a Russian veteran... Sure it's a long reload time. On the other hand it would be nice to have it modelled realistically. We also have nuke-firing Sturmtigers, so I guess it's a pretty small discrepancy when looking at the big picture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Heartland: Well, that wasn't what I think, it's from an interview with a Russian veteran... I know, he thinks it wasn't very long, and he's probably right. Looking at the number of rails used and the weight of the projectiles it really isn't much time, but in game terms or compared to other types of artillery it definitly is Everything is relative Sure it's a long reload time. On the other hand it would be nice to have it modelled realistically.Realistic is broad term in this context We also have nuke-firing Sturmtigers, so I guess it's a pretty small discrepancy when looking at the big picture... Having SMKs to fight the Finns with is at least as realistic as those Sturmtigers So I doubt we should consider the Sturmtigers as representative of how realistic CMBB is... [PS] Isn't the squib a relative of the killer mink? [ October 25, 2002, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Foxbat: The game is "wrong" unless, there is a reason for this unit to operate differently. In this case it makes perfect sense as the russian rocket artillery can't reload (and rarely did so historically) and was historically often reinforced (and I don't think there is a FO in the game with enough tubes to replicate a Katyusha strike as would be used by a Gds Mortar division ). So the result of this "bug" is realistic, and there is no indication as of yet that it wasn't intentional, so I guess that makes it a feature . It seems we're approaching this issue from different directions. I'm looking at such issues firstly from a gamer's perspective and secondly as a programmer. When I first noticed this "feature" in a scenario, I found it irritating. Well, it is irritating. Then, not being somebody who likes to make unfounded claims, I tried to replicate it. It turned out that this irritating "feature" was easily reproduced in the scenario editor. From a programmer's perspective the most likely cause for the existance of this "feature" is that the programmer has simply forgotten about the possibility of giving a unit extra ammo when he coded the russian rocket artillery. This is supported by the fact that the default ammo level can be fired in a single salvo. Now, again from a gamer's perspective, I still think that even if the "fire all ammo in one volley" behaviour is realistic (and evidence supporting this has been brought up), displaying "unlimited", the actual number of ammo rockets or the maximum amount of ammo allowed in the editor as the number of tubes would be better than the current number because it wouldn't cause these "my spotter fired more rockets than it has tubes" irritations. Now, I admit that I maybe should not have called this a BUG, but I still think that CMBB is so complex that it shouldn't be made any more complicated by things like that. Apart from that, hardly anybody ever seems to take notice of my posts anyway. I guess people are much too busy discussing new mods... Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Fly Pusher, After a barrage the launchers normally did relocate into a new area for fear of counterbattery if there was nothing to shoot at it i guess, if not your apparatus had to be ready to fire, as you might know the front is not a holidaytrip. What happened after a launch ? The guys operating the tubes would run and reload until they collapse on the spot, then being replaced by another, to be ready again in the shortest possible time for another barrage, that's more likely i guess. Btw. Being subject to Counterbattery fire was an artillery man's daily business, meaning the german (and most probably the russian) artillerists had to man the guns no matter what fired at them, they suffered accordingly, because if they didn't they were waxed for sure.... Greets Daniel [ October 25, 2002, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: TSword ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 Whether or not the rocket chaps relocate, go to the pub, put on the dress of a Finnish ubertrooper or not makes no difference. You can see from my post on the first page that the delay is still the same, whether or not you wait five or ten turns. Now, I've just retested this wierdness. I launched a barrage a 280mm rockets on turn 1. They took 60 seconds to arrive. Turn 2, the rockets arrive, as promised. Reloading will be 6 minutes. Fine, no objections to that. I now cancel the target and fast-forward to turn 25. I retarget the rockets. Reloading and targetting will be 6 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: It seems we're approaching this issue from different directions.Apparently I'm looking at such issues firstly from a gamer's perspective and secondly as a programmer. When I first noticed this "feature" in a scenario, I found it irritating. Well, it is irritating.Whether it is irritating depends imho on how you look at it. But that's a different discussion. Then, not being somebody who likes to make unfounded claims, I tried to replicate it. It turned out that this irritating "feature" was easily reproduced in the scenario editor.That's at least one thing that set you apart from certain people :mad: who like to cry wolf. From a programmer's perspective the most likely cause for the existance of this "feature" is that the programmer has simply forgotten about the possibility of giving a unit extra ammo when he coded the russian rocket artillery. This is supported by the fact that the default ammo level can be fired in a single salvo.I would think that there are at least 2 possible reasons: 1) it was a mistake, or oversight as you say. 2) when it was decided that russian rocket artillery would be one shot (as opposed to a 30+ round reload) it was decided to keep this "feature" in (perhaps to allow scenario designers to route a bigger barrage through one FO, so players can't abuse it too much). 3) it was intentionally coded to represent the fact that the amount of arty used in one strike was often bigger than the default value for a FO. This would of course have been good, except you can only increase ammo in one round increments. So it isn't entirely realsitc and thus never made the official features list. I would think that all three are realistic possibilities of how this feature came to be, and we won't know what really happened unless someone from BFC tells us Now, again from a gamer's perspective, I still think that even if the "fire all ammo in one volley" behaviour is realistic (and evidence supporting this has been brought up), displaying "unlimited", the actual number of ammo rockets or the maximum amount of ammo allowed in the editor as the number of tubes would be better than the current number because it wouldn't cause these "my spotter fired more rockets than it has tubes" irritations.I agree, but that's probably a game engine limitation. I would think the info window was not changed because it would mean changing the code for one specific -and probably rare- use of a few specific units (besides unlimited would probably confuse people as well ). Now, I admit that I maybe should not have called this a BUG, but I still think that CMBB is so complex that it shouldn't be made any more complicated by things like that.I guess with a game as complex and varied as CMBB you'll always have "undocumented features" Apart from that, hardly anybody ever seems to take notice of my posts anyway. I guess people are much too busy discussing new mods...Or playing the game I agree that there seems to have been a big drop-off in discussion about 'real' issues (not that mods aren't imortant, but for me gameplay and realism are the most important aspects of the game ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Soddball: Whether or not the rocket chaps relocate, go to the pub, put on the dress of a Finnish ubertrooper or not makes no difference.I don't think the german units actually relocate, afaik they were used much like regular artillery (they use tubes, so they don't have the launch signature of the russkie stuff). [..] Turn 2, the rockets arrive, as promised. Reloading will be 6 minutes. Fine, no objections to that. I now cancel the target and fast-forward to turn 25. I retarget the rockets. Reloading and targetting will be 6 minutes.Obviously that means they only start reloading after you give them a new target, in a way that makes sense. In real life you would probably ask them to stand by for further action within X minutes. But since that is not the case in the game the rocket teams don't know if they'll be firing more rockets within a reasonable timeframe, and they certainly can't afford to stand around with the rockets armed and engaged in case you might give another firing order before the battery runs out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soddball Posted October 25, 2002 Author Share Posted October 25, 2002 Well, that's possible, but I'd like to hear from the experts on this subject, since I'm definitely not one. It just doesn't seem logical to me that if the rockets are loaded and ready to use on turn 1, that they won't be loaded and ready to use on turn 25. If you're following one doctrine for the start of the game, why change doctrine after your first salvo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSword Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Foxbat, The german Werfers produce very visible smoke trails, there are actually photographs. But i also agree they most probably stayed as long necessary for a given mission for example a prep barrage of 45 Minutes or continuing harrasing/defensive fire into an enemy assembly area for hours. With relocation you loose to much time and you have to dig a new entrenched emplacement which takes a day. (Certainly the Werfers have lower vulnerability when being subject to counterfire then ordinary arty because they have a very low profile, not to mention the wurfrahmen (throwingframes) for the big ones. So in conclusion i go with Sodball that the rocket arty delay on TRP is most probably a bug. (However who would ever use the big mean ones in a QB on the german side ? They are so unbelievable expensive) Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Originally posted by Soddball: Well, that's possible, but I'd like to hear from the experts on this subject, since I'm definitely not one.Me too, but I'm afraid they're busy It just doesn't seem logical to me that if the rockets are loaded and ready to use on turn 1, that they won't be loaded and ready to use on turn 25. If you're following one doctrine for the start of the game, why change doctrine after your first salvo?I think the first shot is considered a "special case" by the game (or the seond shot is, depending on how you look at it) since it doesn't have a load/reload time associated with it. AFAIK every weapon in the game is considered to be "on standby" when it is first used and only then do load/reload factors come into play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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