Pzkpfw 38(t) - Penetration data, a help request =]

[Abteilung]

The penetration data for the Kwk 38(t) for 0° @100m is listed as 67mm.

Questions:

1.Is this for the same ammunition types that would have existed in the spring of 1940, e.g the BoF?

2. What are and where may I find the sources and documentation to substantiate this penetration data?

Thanks

[ November 07, 2002, 02:48 AM: Message edited by: Abteilung ]

[Abteilung]

Terribly sorry to trouble you all, but as you can see from my member number, I'm a longtime lurker and rarely ever post. I did several searches of the board and turned up nothing. Any help substantiating this number would be greatly appreciated, as it is now, i just don;t know what sources to look at. =) Cheers and thanks in advance.

[Priest]

There are many sources where you can get this. Probably your best bet though is to find the user on this forum called Rexford and see if his email is in his profile. He is a reknowned (and published) ballistics expert and will be able to provide you anything you need.

Also the Jentz books will have some info but how exact is up in the air. A good read none the less. You can also try

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/

Some others will arrive shortly with more info I am sure.

[Abteilung]

All data I've seen points to a penetration of 41mm RHA @ 30° and 100m. The CM:BB table lists the 30° and 100m values as 54mm of penetration. This would mean that sources including the suggested Achtungpanzer are a bit modest with their data. Also I do own rexford;s excellent publication on WWII ballistics armor and gunnery, but alas, there is absolutely no data for the 38(t) in that particular book.

[Priest]

Some sources are based on testing done either during the war, by the Germans, or in testing situations less than adequate or some combination of the above.

CM uses math and physics to apply their tables and not strict test data not done by them.

Also that is why I mentioned to contact Rexford directly, while he may not have written about it trust me when I say he knows the answer.

[TSword]

Abteilung,

Do a search for rexford and you'll find some recent posts including penetration of vanilla 3.7cm AT. The 3.7cm in 38(t) is only marginally better almost unnoticeable. 67 mm @ 0° and 100m is most probable wrong and more around 45-50 mm.

Greets

Daniel

[rexford]

My calculations in the past for 37mm German AP overlooked some factors such as big HE burster cavity and probable use of less than ideal metal quality.

Penetration estimates for German 37mm rounds have been downgraded for purposes of our book. Posts on this forum addressed possible 37mm penetration

revisions which could be examined by CMBB crew.

With revised figures, German 37mm AP doesn't appear to bust through T34 turret front armor as much.

We also revised 50mm APC penetration due to bigger than typical HE burster size, and inability of 50L42 on PzKpfw III's to do much against KV-1 75mm side armor.

Possibility that 50mm APC penetration needed some downgrading was noted in some posts.

German 75mm APCBC and Tiger APCBC had 0.2% of projectile weight as HE burster, which is really small. 37L45 AP has 1.9%, which is ALOT. 50mm APC had 1.2%, I think.

88L56 Flak rounds had 1.65% HE burster during early and middle war years, and metal was not so good based on penetration figures presented in Jentz' DREADED THREAT book. This may have been posted in the past on this forum.

[MikeyD]

One would assume all 37mm gun-armed tank should having matching performance with the 37mm Pak36. I believe they'e all L/45 gun tubes and chamber the same rounds. The Czech tank's penetration stats sound a tad high, in comparison.

[Abteilung]

The Czech 37mm round for the Kwk 38(t) A7 is both heavier at 815g, and has a higher mv at 750m/s than the German 37mm used in the L/46.5 (Pak, PIII, et. al.).

Not suprisingly the 38(t) has far better penetration at closer ranges. The figures displayed in CM:BB seem a bit too optimistic. The bursting charge on the A7 round is soemthing I haven't the sources to provide, but will continue to search.

[ November 07, 2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Abteilung ]

[MikeyD]

I've seen the 37mm pak gun listed at 740m/sec, not far from your Czech gun. Sometimes you've got to wonder about the original source of some of the stats floating around in books.

Do you mean the Czech gun chambered different ammo than the Pak? Well, you learn something new every day! You've genuinely surprised me!

[Guest Mike]

I'm not sure (have to check (sic)) but teh 38(t) may have mounted a Skoda gun that was NOT a copy of the Pak 36, hence it has different ammo & characteristics.

[Priest]

Could they have been re-chambered?

[Guest Mike]

Anything can be rechambered - the question was were they?

I doubt it - most equipment captured in sufficient quantities to be used kept it's normal ammo - especially when the factories producing it became part of Germany!!

I have no info on that, but there wasa Skoda 3.7cm AT gun - designated the 3.7cm Pak 37(t) - it and the Yugoslav versoin were "standard issue" to the Whermacht until they became obsolete.