Henri Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I am just about to finish a TCPIP game with this huge scenario, and I am getting my ass handed to me. Not to denigrate my oponent's upcoming victory, but it she had played the scenario beforehand and I had not, but I don't think that is is the significant difference. This is an combined forces assault scenario in heavily forested terrain against prepared enemy positions including foxholes, mines, barbed wire, road obstacles, pillboxes and so on. The ground is soft and all of the roads are blocked by mines and obstacles, so it is impossible for tanks to reach enemy positions by means of the roads. There is only one place on the whole map where tanks can get between forested areas into enemy positions, so this is easily defended with tanks and panzerfausts.I have six tanks bogged down and immobilized and therefore useless due to the hilly forested terrain. The Allies have no air support, and most of the artillery is onboard, which means that the heavy forest prevents the artillery from firing most of the time on suspected enemy positions. The Allies have about a 2:1 advantage in points which is usually considered inadequate for an assault against prepared enemy positions. Even moreso since ab out half of these points are for armor which is practically useless for the Allies since few of them are likely to see any enemies at all. I have succeeded in knocking out a half dozen pillboxes, but the attrition in moving towards unknown enemy positions and battling against entrenched enemies has left my forces inferior in numbers to the Germans, who still have armor support and a couple of pillboxes to defend their flags, whereas I have no armor left to support my battered infantry and only a few 60 mm mortars who refuse to fire because their HQs cannot see the enemy positions.As usual my 240 mm rockets killed more of my own men than of the enemy. If I had known the locations of enemy pillboxes, I might have had a better chance, but still I don't think that I could have carried the day against a competent opponent, because in addition to the other advantages mentioned above, the terrain on his side of the line of defense is fairly clear, which allows him to move his reserves quicly to any threatened sector on the large map, whereas my units have to slog through heavily forested terrain. Has anyone actually won this against a competent human player? Henri [This message has been edited by Henri (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 CONTAINS SPOILERS!!!!! - - - - - - - - - - - - - >Not to denigrate my oponent's upcoming >victory, but it she had played the >scenario beforehand and I had not True, but needs a slight clarification; I had played about 1/3 of the scenario vs the AI and played as the Americans, which is why I played the Germans this time because it seems to me that much of their defense hinges on, as you've said, ambushes, mines, unknown locations of pillboxes, etc. If I had played as the Americans I would have already known the locations of a lot of these things and thus, I felt would have put you at an even greater disadvantage. >my 240 mm rockets killed more of my own men >than of the enemy They aren't rockets. But btw, when I played the AI the same thing happened to me. I think it's probably due to the weather conditions and the experience of the spotter who, if I remember correctly is either green or regular. >This is an combined forces assault scenario >in heavily forested terrain against >prepared enemy positions...ground is soft >and all of the roads are blocked by mines >and obstacles...impossible for tanks to >reach enemy positions by means of the >roads. The Allies have no air support...the >heavy forest prevents the artillery from >firing most of the time on suspected enemy >positions. From what I've read about the battles in the Hurtgen Forest, which is what this scenario is supposedly based on, it sounds like the designer's done a pretty good job of simulating the conditions. The on-board artillery thing you mentioned is kind of frustrating though. I have about 3 81mm mortars that I've beeen desperately trying to position somewhere that they can fire the whole game and haven't found a spot yet. >I have succeeded in knocking out a half >dozen pillboxes Umm, no. You've got four bunkers and one pillbox. >the attrition in moving towards unknown >enemy positions and battling against >entrenched enemies has left my forces >inferior in numbers to the Germans I'm curious how exactly did you advance? By that I mean did you have a recon screen on a broad front and then select what you thought were the weakest spots of my defese to commit your main body against, or did you have a specific plan in mind before we started, etc.? >the terrain on his side of the line of >defense is fairly clear, which allows him >to move his reserves quicly to any >threatened sector on the large map, whereas >my units have to slog through heavily >forested terrain. True enough, that is a big help. I'm not sure if you know though, and since there's still a few turns left I won't say where, you know exactly how close you've come in places to achieving breakthroughs in a few places. I think that this game is a lot closer than you think it is in terms of the outcome. We'll see. I can understand your frustrations though as I experienced a lot of the same things you listed vs the AI. That's the reason why I quit playing 1/3 of the way through; it was fairly obvious to me I was going to lose, and I didn't want the computer to gloat over having beaten me its second time. =) That was when I first got the game though and thanks to a couple "expert advisors," I've learned a lot since then about tactics (although I still need to learn a lot more). I haven't played this one vs another human opponent besides you, but I'm fairly certain that there are at least a few players out there who could win it against a "competent opponent." I forget who made this one, I think it was Rune's son maybe, but I may be wrong. Anyway Rune said it's a fairly evenly matched scenario . . . like I said game's not over yet. =) Kitty ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website Jesus Dress Up! The McNoldy Group [This message has been edited by Kitty (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Yep, it was my 12 year old son who made that one. It was play tested by a few people, and the Allies can win, but it isn't easy. About 60-40 towards the germans according to the feedback i got. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Ladies and Gentlemen, First of all, who is Rune?My Dad's name is Luis and he is no longer with us... Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez is the name and I designed "These Hills are Alive". I believe it says in designer's notes to play from either side? I never recommended the scenario for Human vs. Human and most of my scenarios are based historical terrain and units, weather, and so on, including extensive reasearch of the Hurtgen Forest! Spoiler * * * * * * * * * * The Tanks actually can enter through three different locations, Artillery must be used agressively once you have infiltrated with scouts from the American side. Because of the weather and other conditions of this scenario DO NOT Move your FOs forward keep them hidden. If you want a great Double Blind Scenario for equal play with NO Flags I would be glad to e-mail to you "Meeting!"(Very Enjoyable from both sides). ------------------ "Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur." General Guilio Douhet 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by GonzoAttacker: Ladies and Gentlemen, First of all, who is Rune?My Dad's name is Luis and he is no longer with us... Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez is the name and I designed "These Hills are Alive". I believe the confusion lies in that there are two different scenarios being discussed here. Yours being, "THESE Hills are Alive" and Rune's being, "THE Hills are Alive." Yours, Gonzo, is the one that Henri and I are playing. =) Kitty Ps - rune always tries to hog glory for himself and his kin. ------------------ Hamsters at War! Chicks With Tanks Lorak's FTX "I'd rather the Bees than your Mask of Shame." - Stuka The True Blue Aussie Slang Source The Unofficial Vic Bitter Website Jesus Dress Up! The McNoldy Group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted February 14, 2001 Author Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by Kitty: I'm curious how exactly did you advance? By that I mean did you have a recon screen on a broad front and then select what you thought were the weakest spots of my defese to commit your main body against, or did you have a specific plan in mind before we started, etc.? Since I had absolutely no information about your dispositions, I felt that I had no choice but to advance on a broad front initially then to adapt. As it turned out, you had a broad front defence except for your undefended right flank; I felt that I had almost broken through a couple of places, but it seems that reserves were brought up to plug the hole. I captured the flag on your extreme right which was undefended, but getting my platoon hung up on barbed wire, ambushed and wiped out in one minute by a single machinegun on the way to the center put an end to my intention of using this platoon as a flanking force.At that time, your center seemed on the verge of collapse and a falnking move as early as possible by this platoon seemed worth the risk, since I had seen no enemy units at all in this area since the beginning. The two places where I have almost broken through are both protected by the two remaining bunkers that I know of, supported by tanks and machineguns, and one of them has impenetrable wire defenses tht have already cost me a full platoon or more. The battle-worthy units that I have there are the remnants of my reinforcements that apparently arrived there at the same time as your own reinforcements. I tried firing smoke to cover a rush for the flags, but my remaining 60 mm mortars refuse to fire smoke. At this point, my choices are a suicidal dash in the open for the flags through barbed wire and bunkers, machinegun fire and tanks, or to stay put and wait for the end while saving as many of my men as I can. The designer says that there are 3 places where tanks can reach the enemy rear positions; I can see only one, right in the center to the left of the road, and three of the tanks that I tried to send there bogged down before making it far enough to shoot at the enemy, and the other two and a halftrack that made it were easily killed by bushwacking tanks and infantry covering the opening. The designer says that the game is balanced for play against the AI, which is probably true, but I would like to hear how an Allied player who has not seen the scenario should go about winning this against a human who knows how to defnd and how to use inner lines. Knowing what I know now, I would do a number of things differently. Here are some of them. 1)I would use my 240 mm artillery early firing blind on suspected enemy positions before my infantry got close enough to be hit by shells that stray up to 100 m. 2)I would use my engineers to remove mines from the roads (I lost 2 tanks to mines on the roads). 3) I would use less of my 75 mm and 81 mm artillery firing for area fire and hold most of it to fire on known concentrations of enemy infantry. 4) I would try to find a way to use my numerous bazookas to better effect (they were all killed without firing a shot). 5) I might try a feint in the middle followed by throwing everything at the enemy left flank where there is the only somewhat open terrain in front of enemy defenses (which include 2 bunkers and mucho wire), hoping to break through before he can bring up the reserves.Problem is this strategy is fairly obvious and the roads and open terrain behind the enemy positions allow rapid shifting of forces for the enemy. 6) I would try to find a way to reduce infantry casualties in the advance, possibly by more concentration of units. This would probably require more micro-management than I like to do in a huge scenario like this. In any case, I still believe that a numerical advantage of 2:1 in points with much of it in armor against an entrenched enemy in terrain like this where tanks are at a major disadvantage due to soft terrain and impenetrable forest and blockaded roads, without any air cover and knowledge of enemy dispositions amounts to a decisive advantage for the defender. The forward bunkers are not a major handicap for the attacker, since they can be taken out by tanks, it is the ones deep within the enemy position that are a headache, because they cannot be reached by tanks. This is not to criticize this fine scenario. To balance it better, the Allied attacker should be told to look at the scenario from the German position before playing it (I played it fully blind), and the ground should be made less conducive to bogging down.I am not sure tht would be enough, but it certainly would help. Finally kudos to Kitty for her excellent handling of the defensive; particularly decisive were her ambushes and counter-attacks on my left flank, which left me there with all of one 60 mm artillery unit and a crew to hold the flank. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Yep, I didn't know there was another scenario with almost the same name. So, I'll drop of of this conversation. Rune Pak 5 comming to a download near you soon. Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Spoiler!!! = = = = = = = = = = = = = Wise use of engineers is important as well as bypassing Bunkers in left center, you can skirt these bunkers to the right and will lose some troops to mines and some ambushes. Tanks can follow in same direction while knocking out bunkers but have to keep them moving once slowed down they will bog. Tanks can also support on American right flank too but again you must wait for support. Most important is knocking out middle wooden machine gun bunker, infantry gun, and infantry. Once that is complete and wait for reienforcements you can attack to center right of the road and tie up most forces to the center. timing is important in this case...... BUT if you have not played this scenario you would not know what you were up against. Against a human the odds are in favor of the AXIS, if you notice the date of the scenario it was designed as first attack in the H. Forest. So if you have not ever seen this scenario before and you play as the americans you will lose against the human oppenent. Then again, if you played this scenario as an American and switched to the Axis you would be at a great advantage. You would be able to manuver all reserves to weak spots and plug all holes. So for Human vs Human?? I have no answer for you. All I can say is good luck, and keep your head down. BTW when I play as axis my flamethrowers become effective because they can ambush like crazy! Kitty and Henri thanks for the post. Of the 1000 plus downloads for this scenario it was great to see an AAR finally from a outside source other then from play testers! I wish more would do it. Really you two sould try my "Meeting!" scenario, i think you both would enjoy it, send me an e-mail. gonzoattacker@prodigy.net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 SPOILERS ALL THE WAY THROUGH. To the designer of this battle, excellent design. I am playing the battle blind against a very capable ranking player on the RD ladder who I believe have played it before also. It is difficult but I feel I have done pretty well in killing his defending troops. I have lost my share of men but I believe he is down to his last 3 or 4 inf platoons. The tanks are of little consequence and I lost most of my tanks to mud and mines, but no problem. I still have 3 tanks and 2 halftracks and they are all getting into position to support my push when I'm ready. I haven't seen his tanks just heard the sound contacts but he's hampered by the terrain as much as I am and it would be difficult for him to get to my units without becoming exposed to my bazookas. This is hand to hand and by going slow with scouts on sneak and troops close behind to follow on and fight whoever the scouts find, I've been able to win most of my engagements with moderate casualties vs his getting wiped out. I'm currently on the move to root out a pioneer platoon in the forest leading to the rear of his town and VL. In one particular battle in the main forest on the allied left where the pillbox is, After destroying a Volksturm platoon there,I rushed my force towards the center and stopped 20 meters from where my motar unit had stumbled on a regular inf platoon. I believe he must have been surprised as he was running his units to outflank my force, (thinking I would still be laagering around his dead Volksturm) but instead ran into a hasty ambush. I lost 2 platoon hq units and another 7 men in various squads but he lost his whole platoon in 2 minutes. I also have my share of casualties but after just receiving 2 reinforcements in the last 6 turns I'm feeling confident again. I know I have enough force to take his pioneers out and push to his rear. Come to think of it I hope he's not reading this! ') Once I get behind the town I don't think he'll be very happy. We are at turn 26 and I'm pretty sure he's got his tricks up his sleeve but he's running out of room to maneuver and men faster than I am. Of course if he gets any major reinforcements or any additional artillery I may be speaking prematurely. Even if I did lose it doesn't matter since I know I put up a pretty good offense and I am enjoying the the tactical and intellectual challenge of a very fine scenario. All best Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted February 15, 2001 Author Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by lucero1148: . We are at turn 26 and I'm pretty sure he's got his tricks up his sleeve but he's running out of room to maneuver and men faster than I am. Of course if he gets any major reinforcements or any additional artillery I may be speaking prematurely. Hold on to your hat (this is a long scenario...) and let us know how you make out. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted February 20, 2001 Share Posted February 20, 2001 Ok My second scenario is to the PBEM-TCP Only series is almost ready. I have posted at MANX site "Meeting!" and waiting for it to hit MaddMatt's site. The second "In the Woods" is being edited as we speak. I will probaly post it this week sometime. the next in the series is being play tested as we speak, it is called "Town Meeting". All of these have no Flags and are equal play for equal pain.. All of these can also be played AI with Flags placed in the proper place! I think I will release them for AI only also! Thanks again for your AARs and if you want to be on my play tester team please e-mail me and I would like to have some PBEM-Tcp/IP feed back or AI feed back. Michael "Gonzo" Gonzalez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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