Has this been discussed?-Cavalry on the Attack [UPDATED]

[Skipper]

Related to this topic is the subject of polish mounted charges in the war of 1939.

According to genosse Guderian "Polish pomorskaya cavalry brigade, due to ignorance about characteristics and tactics of our tanks, attacked them with cold weapons and suffered horrible losses".

Actual story: in 1939, Polish cavalry carried out 6 mounted charges, only two of them were in presence of german armored cars (1 September, Kroyanty) or tanks (19 September, Vulka Venglova). In both cases, armor was not the objective of the charge. In all cases, this was local initiative, contradicting Polish combat regulations.

Particular case mentioned by Guderian (1st September, Kroyanty) was something like this:

Raiding group of 18th pomorski ulan regiment, commanded by major Maletski and consisting of 1st, 2nd squadrons and 3,4 platoons of 3rd squadron (~200 men) was carrygin out a raid into the rear of german 76th motorized infantry regiment.

At ~1900, leading platoon discovered about batallion of german infantry in bivouak, ~300 m from edge of forest. Trying to use the element of surprise, ulans formed up in 2 echelons, each consisting of 1 squadron, and charged. German batallion was not expecting anything like that and scattered in panic.

However, polish leading platoon did not notice several armored cars that were hidden in the forrest. These ACs moved out and opened up with flanking MG fire. Major Maletsky's group immediately withdrew behind the nearest ridge, losing 26 people KIA and about 50 WIA.

At 2100 of the same day, german 76th regiment resumed attacks on 18th ulans defensive positions (now occupied by 3rd and 4th squadrons). 4th squadron was cut off and destroyed. 3rd squadron withdrew in organized manner.

End result:

18th ulans lost about 60% of men and horses, 7 MGs, 2 AT guns and a radiostation.

So... not a brigade, by 2.5 understrength squadrons. Not tanks, but armored cars. Not attacked, but ambushing. Not horrible losses, but 26 KIA and 50 WIA. Guderian is quite a source!

[gatpr]

Didn't Panzer Leader say that first of all he understood that BTS would not model horses, and secondly that he umderstood that cavalry charges had been a rarity since the American Civil War. Impeaching David Glantz is a non starter to anyone with any knowledge of Ostfront history. Someone's probably using cavalry in Afghanistan today though granted charges are probably rare. seriously though Panzer Leader a few years ago I found a copy of a neat book entitled I believe Cavalry in World War II (original eh). I will see if I can find my copy and cite it for you. It had tons of interesting info not only about Soviet and German cavalry, but also Italian and other satellite forces as well. I am convinced your points are valid.

[Philippe]

Originally posted by gatpr:

Didn't Panzer Leader say that first of all he understood that BTS would not model horses, and secondly that he umderstood that cavalry charges had been a rarity since the American Civil War. Impeaching David Glantz is a non starter to anyone with any knowledge of Ostfront history. Someone's probably using cavalry in Afghanistan today though granted charges are probably rare. seriously though Panzer Leader a few years ago I found a copy of a neat book entitled I believe Cavalry in World War II (original eh). I will see if I can find my copy and cite it for you. It had tons of interesting info not only about Soviet and German cavalry, but also Italian and other satellite forces as well. I am convinced your points are valid.

This is not meant to be an entry into the great debate, but I think that it is important to keep in mind that there is a difference between American and European thinking about the use of cavalry, particularly during the nineteenth century, and the effect of this difference in thinking is still with us today, though in subtle ways.

Many followers of American military history tend to be a bit cavalier about the other way to use horses, and sometimes seem to suffer from mild amnesia when it comes to military events between the Great War and the American Civil War. Europe had several confrontations involving modern armed forces after 1860, and the cavalry of the major powers got to trot around in an increasingly difficult attempt to fulfill some of their traditional roles.

The American school assumes, probably correctly, that the only rational way to use cavalry in a modern nineteenth century setting is in the American style, which is more akin to using it as mounted infantry. The traditional European school argued that the nature of terrain in the Americas precludes the stirrup-to-stirrup approach.

As an aside, if you want to get a flavor for what cavalry thinking was really like at the end of the nineteenth century, take a look at the article on cavalry in the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1910). Besides being a goldmine for miniaturists who want to understand how to model the movement of large bodies of formed horse, it shows surprising sophistication about the modern environment.

The cavalry charge has always been a pretty weird tactic, but against disordered and demoralized troops it can be quite effective. Provided, of course, that you don't get shot to pieces in the process.

The real value of cavalry lies in other areas. Horses (and bicycles) have a few advantages over trucks and halftracks. They don't need gasoline, they're fairly quiet (though a bit smelly at times -- and eventually you get to like it), they can move single file at night in terrain that is impassible to vehicles, they are easier to hide in a forest, and they can help you stay warm in the winter. And they're great for patroling the wide open spaces between your fortified villages. And until recently there were still a few units that performed in exactly this way down in South America, on the Chilean-Argentine border. And they imported their saddles from Germany.

But cavalry charges against machine guns ? Well, I suppose if you put enought vodka or slivovitz in someone anything can happen...Which brings me to my own personal favorite that I think BTS should model: Bicycle Troops. They even had them in Normandy, and let me tell you, a bicycle charge is no laughing matter.

[lcm1947]

A mass bicycle charge would certainly not be a laughing matter. Sounds pretty darn serious to me. Can you imagine? :eek:

[Andreas]

Skipper, thanks for the info on the Poles. I had read either in von Luck's or von Mellenthin's memoirs that is was most likely manufactured by German propaganda, but I had not known the more exact circumstances.

[Andreas]

Was es nicht alles gibt...

Cossackweb

Site in English or Russian.

[Skipper]

Nice site, as long as you don't take too seriously its authors as historians...

E.g.:

QTE

At the beginning of war, most of the tanks in the Red Army were obsolete, in addition they were not organized in separate units as in German army, but were rather spread among infantry divisions as a support units. The cavalry were the only mobile troops of the Red Army.

UNQTE

Hmm... mech.corps, anyone?

[Andreas]

Hehe - I did not even see that one.