Books on the Eastern Front

[Andreas]

Originally posted by cbb:

German censors - I am intirgued now. I was not aware that German censors checked books on their political content.

At this link to the German Verfassungsschutz (Constitutional Secret Service) you can find (in German) a debunking of the whole preventive war crap by the way.

Here is the text:

[JaegerMeister]

Talking of books, has anyone seen this site?

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/products.htm

I have no links with them, just thought i'd point people to a good WW2 book site. They seem to have some great titles there, but damn expensive. Anyone know if these titles are available elsewhere for sensible prices? I would like to get my hands on a few of them!

[funkybax]

Many thanks to Foxbat and Andreas.

I've read the Carell's books and I didn't know his background (here, in Italy his books have just been republished).

I've cleared many doubts I had before now.

Many thanks indeed.

Bye.

Funkybax :mad:

[Master Dullard aka flyingcursor]

I've Gantz on Op. Mars. He's put out a lot of material. His book on Leningrad gives the story from the operational standpoint as opposed to most other histories that deal with the plight of the besieged.

I just reread Clarke which suffers from the usual weakness (at least in the US) of spending most of the time on Germany and very little on Russia.

However, I'm looking forward to digging into John Erickson's 2 volume epic, "The Road to Stalingrad" and "The Road to Berlin".

I'll be sure to give a review of Erickson when I'm done. My main goal is to find good scenario material.

[cbb]

Originally posted by Sgt. Steiner:

I've noticed that none of Franz Kurowski's books have been mentioned. I recently read "Panzer Aces", and am currently reading "Infantry Aces". Both books seem to be very good accounts of infantry and tank combat. I was unaware of Carrell's background; is Kurowski similarly discredited?

I believe Fedorowicz is supposed to publish Kurowski's book on Kursk some time within the next few months.

[cbb]

Originally posted by Master Dullard aka flyingcursor:

I'll be sure to give a review of Erickson when I'm done. My main goal is to find good scenario material.

As I've said before, Erickson's books probably contain a lot more material for TOAW scenarios than for CM. He does not focus on small-unit actions. But if you're simply looking for dates and places of battles, his books will likely suffice.

[cbb]

Originally posted by Andreas:

It is a criminal offense in Germany to publish anything remotely considered "pro-Nazi". It is my understanding that Hoffmann's publisher sought and received a determination prior to publication that the book did not violate the law...

I'm not recommending Hoffmann's book to CMBB players -- I don't think it is relevant. I simply cited it to point out that there is another line of thought (albeit a minority view) regarding the issue of whether Barbarossa was a pre-emptive attack. Hoffmann's book is very good but I'm not convinced by his argument. The best part of his book, IMHO, is his discussion regarding the rabid propaganda of Ilya Ehrenburg.

[cbb]

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

Talking of books, has anyone seen this site?

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/products.htm

I have no links with them, just thought i'd point people to a good WW2 book site. They seem to have some great titles there, but damn expensive. Anyone know if these titles are available elsewhere for sensible prices? I would like to get my hands on a few of them!

Unless you buy them used, you won't find better prices on Fedorowicz titles. His books tend to be of very high quality (oversized, lots of photos). If you are interested in German armor, you will find none better.

[cbb]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

I agree with you. I'm not saying that background is irrelevant. I'm simply saying that an author's background alone should not be cause for a reader to summarily dismiss an entire series of books.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

Talking of books, has anyone seen this site?

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/products.htm

I have no links with them, just thought i'd point people to a good WW2 book site. They seem to have some great titles there, but damn expensive. Anyone know if these titles are available elsewhere for sensible prices? I would like to get my hands on a few of them!

They actually have a book on Bagration, who would've thunk it:

East Front Drama 1944 (Rolf Hinze). Hard cover, 9"x6", 360 pages, 100 photographs, 50 maps. In June 1944, the Russian Army launched "Operation Bagration", the largest offensive in military history—eclipsing even D-Day in its enormity. In a matter of days, a hole hundreds of miles wide was torn in the German front and Army Group Center was destroyed, with more than 300,000 casualties— the most costly German defeat of WW2. East Front Drama is a meticulous examination of how the German forces on the Eastern Front, under the direction of Hitler’s favorite Field Marshall—Walter Model—recovered from this shattering defeat. Rolf Hinze is one of Germany’s leading military historians and has covered this little known topic in meticulous fashion with detailed unit movements, analysis of command decisions and superb maps.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by cbb:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas:

It is a criminal offense in Germany to publish anything remotely considered "pro-Nazi". It is my understanding that Hoffmann's publisher sought and received a determination prior to publication that the book did not violate the law....</font>

It is not a criminal offense to publish anything pro-Nazi. It is a criminal offense to deny that the Holocaust happened, and it is a criminal offense to incite to racial/religious hatred. It is also a breach of the constitution to infringe on a human being's honour (Wuerde). If you want to say that the Nazis built great Autogbahnen, go right ahead, it is not against the law. If you publish a historical study on the Waffen-SS concluding they were the most efficient fighting force of the Reich, you are at leave to do so. If you however want to say that they built great Autobahnen, and the Holocaust is a post-war invention, the matter is slightly different.

Finally, this lawyer's statement they got sounds like cheap publicity to me. I do not believe that a historical study of whether Barbarossa was a preventive attack would be in breach of German law, even if it concluded that it was.

Anyway, getting a lawyer's statement is a slight difference from censorship, would you not think?

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JaegerMeister:

Talking of books, has anyone seen this site?

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/products.htm

I have no links with them, just thought i'd point people to a good WW2 book site. They seem to have some great titles there, but damn expensive. Anyone know if these titles are available elsewhere for sensible prices? I would like to get my hands on a few of them!

They actually have a book on Bagration, who would've thunk it:

East Front Drama 1944 (Rolf Hinze). Hard cover, 9"x6", 360 pages, 100 photographs, 50 maps. In June 1944, the Russian Army launched "Operation Bagration", the largest offensive in military history—eclipsing even D-Day in its enormity. In a matter of days, a hole hundreds of miles wide was torn in the German front and Army Group Center was destroyed, with more than 300,000 casualties— the most costly German defeat of WW2. East Front Drama is a meticulous examination of how the German forces on the Eastern Front, under the direction of Hitler’s favorite Field Marshall—Walter Model—recovered from this shattering defeat. Rolf Hinze is one of Germany’s leading military historians and has covered this little known topic in meticulous fashion with detailed unit movements, analysis of command decisions and superb maps.</font>

[Martin Rapier]

Originally posted by Andreas:

....interesting read together with the late Col. Adair's 'HItler's greatest defeat'.

Umm, I thought 'Hitlers Greatest Defeat' was a fairly awful book, managing to barely skim the surface of the battle yet taking a whole book to do so! The Osprey 'Operation Bagration' manages to pack a lot more detail into a much slimmer volume, and of course introduces us to such exciting units as the 78th 'Sturm' Division.

Cheers

Martin

[cbb]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I don't know that it was a "lawyer's statement" (such as a legal opinion) or whether they may have received some sort of pre-determination (such as a declaratory judgment) from a prosecutor or other legal official. And perhaps it was indeed "cheap publicity."

Nevertheless, if I were the publisher, I would fear that some prosecutor would make the argument that: 1) a book claiming Germany's attack on Russia was a pre-emptive attack is essentially a statement that Hitler's war policy in the east was justified; and 2) a book claiming that Hitler's war policy in the east was justified is essentially an endorsement of the Hitler regime; and 3) a book containing an endorsement of the Hitler regime is essentially an incitement to racial hatred...

That argument may not hold water in court but if I were the publisher I still would not want to run the risk of committing a criminal act (or of being prosecuted, even if that prosecution was frivolous). As has been demonstrated in this thread, passions run strong over these issues. I think the risk of prosecution is definitely censorship.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by cbb:

It is a criminal offense in Germany to publish anything remotely considered "pro-Nazi". It is my understanding that Hoffmann's publisher sought and received a determination prior to publication that the book did not violate the law...

Are you sure this relates to his work on the "pre-emptive" war? And not on his corroboration on a book that puts to question the manner and number of jews killed during the Holocaust (Herr Doktor Hoffmann isn't afraid to touch some rather controversial subjects apparently, he also wrote "Stalin's War of Extermination 1941-1945 : Planning, Realization and Documentation").

Disputing known (or assumed) facts about the Holocaust is touchy business as they are considered evident facts in a court session, and disputing them might get you into trouble with anti-Holocaust denial law.

I simply cited it to point out that there is another line of thought (albeit a minority view) regarding the issue of whether Barbarossa was a pre-emptive attack. Hoffmann's book is very good but I'm not convinced by his argument.

It would take another topic to discuss it properly, but it's fairly obvious that the praeventivkrieg is a bogus claim as no major soviet mechanized unit was capable of sufficent operational or strategic movement in 1941.

[ December 06, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[cbb]

Originally posted by Martin Rapier:

I agree. VERY dry stuff.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by cbb:

[QB I think the risk of prosecution is definitely censorship.[/QB]

You may think so, I would however point you to the dictionary:

censor

noun [C]

a person whose job is to read books, watch films, etc. in order to remove anything offensive from them, or who reads private letters, esp. sent during war or from prison, to remove parts considered unsuitable

prosecute (LEGAL)

verb

to officially accuse (someone) of committing a crime in a court of law, or (of a lawyer) to try to prove that a person accused of committing a crime is guilty of that crime

It is quite clear that one happens before, and one after.

While you are welcome to assign meaning to words as you like, communication is usually enhanced by sticking to the accepted meaning.

[Lawyer]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Anyway, getting a lawyer's statement is a slight difference from censorship, would you not think?

Your libelous remark has been noted and reported to the International Brotherhood of Lawyers Enforcement Bureau for punitive action. From now on, you will find that everywhere you go something will go "wrong", and there will be no legal recourse for you.

There may be no official censors in Germany, but the Legal Police are always watching you.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Andreas:

German censors - I am intirgued now. I was not aware that German censors checked books on their political content.

Apparently they do, from a review of dr Hoffmann's book (emphasis mine):

Because he followed certain official guidelines, the Freiburg Court Vice-President Johann Birk confirmed that this book does not violate any German law. This procedure was necessary in order to protect the author from criminal prosecution in Germany, where historians dissenting with official German myths are frequently subject to prosecution and sometimes even imprisonment.

Sounds like a scary place to work for those interested in the past. No wonder Carell had to disguise his real identity and seek refuge abroad

[cbb]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

That's pretty much Volkogonov's view -- at least for 1941. Of course, Volkogonov's book was written in the late '80s during the glasnost period but before many of the archives were open. Perhaps there are new documents available which shed light on the issue. (Volkogonov died of stomach cancer in the mid-90s I believe).

[Master Dullard aka flyingcursor]

cbb,

Yeah I figured that Erickson would be at a higher level then CMBB. But at least he's on a more practical level then Wertz or Clarke.

Considering there were millions of tactical events during the war suitable for CMBB scenarios, I realize there is no way to obtain the minute details for each of them. Therefore if I can get enough information from the actions of a brigade, I can usually come up with a fairly accurate portrayal of one of it's battalions. That's the model I've followed for years with other wargames.

So in that regard, I think Erickson will provide at least some fuel.

[Foxbat]

It get's worse:

Dr. Hoffmann also explains how Soviet propagandists incited their soldiers to unlimited hatred against everything German, and he gives the reader a short but extremely unpleasant glimpse into what happened when these Soviet soldiers, dehumanized by Soviet propaganda and brutality, finally reached German soil in 1945: A gigantic wave of looting, arson, rape, torture, and mass murder befell East Germany. After reading this book, the world should thank the German Army that they prevented Stalin from succeeding with his plans of World Revolution, despite all the wrongdoings the Germans allegedly committed themselves.

That puts a rather interesting twist on the idea that Carrell is not alone in his praeventiv-claim :eek:

Read the review @ Theses And Dissertations Press

To clarify: Theses and Dissertatioons Press is a small publisher that publishes books debunking the Holocaust, Hoffmann's book was published by them :eek: :eek: and this is their official review :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ December 06, 2002, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[cbb]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Allow me to do the same. Censorship is defined as the act of censoring. Censoring is defined as the suppression of something objectionable. Suppression can easily and quite effectively be accomplished through criminal prosecution (or the threat thereof)...

I don't understand why you are citing the definition of "censor", the noun.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by cbb:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Foxbat:

It would take another topic to discuss it properly, but it's fairly obvious that the praeventivkrieg is a bogus claim as no major soviet mechanized unit was capable of sufficent operational or strategic movement in 1941.

That's pretty much Volkogonov's view -- at least for 1941. Of course, Volkogonov's book was written in the late '80s during the glasnost period but before many of the archives were open. Perhaps there are new documents available which shed light on the issue. </font>

[cbb]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

To clarify: Theses and Dissertatioons Press is a small publisher that publishes books debunking the Holocaust, Hoffmann's book was published by them

You are referring to the publisher of the English edition of Hoffmann's book in the U.S. His book was originally published in Germany by F.A. Herbig.