M Hofbauer Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 I have a question for the armor experts out there. Picture a Pz IV or a Tiger I or a StuG III / StuH. between the lower fron hull armor and the upper front armor there is a "step" of almost horizontal armor. What I am looking for is the strength of that armor plate for the respective vehicles. So far I could not find that data. All references do distinguish between the lower and the upper frontal armor plate and slope, but this characteristic "step" area is apparently neglected so far. I would find it hard to believe that this area, although it represents only a small area of the visible frontal silhouette, would have only the thin top armor strength, since it is situated at the most endangered location of the vehicle. If however it would be of a rather respectable strength then this area due to its almost horizontal angle would represent a practically invincible area. Most hits there would likely ricochet onto the upper vertical plate of the hull/superstructure. specifically: (1)In the case of the Pz. IV Ausf. H the lower hull is 80mm at 14° for the lower "vertical" hull and 80mm at 10° for the upper "vertical" hull/superstructure. What I am looking for is the strength of the almost horizontal area between these two areas. (2)In the case of the StuG III there is a similar horizontal area between the frontal lower hull and the superstructure, directly beneath the main gun. I am looking for the strength of that horizontal plate. (3) In the case of the Pz. VI Ausf. E Tiger there are also two distinct and rather vertical armor plates at the front hull, the lower one being 10cm at 24°, the upper one ("superstructure") 10cm at 10°. What I am looking for is the plate strength of the almost horizontal area of the step between these two almost vertical plates. any and all help is appreciated to solve this mystery. btw I do not have rexford's book, if he reads it I would be happy for info on where/how I can buy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 A quick search reveals: Pz VI H From below: floor: 10 mm lower front plate: 30 mm @ 29 degrees (European) middle front plate: 80 mm @ 76 degrees upper front plate: 20 mm @ 18 degrees driver plate: 80 mm @ 81 degrees -- StuG III G Looking through two dedicated StuG books I still can´t find the number but measuring cut away drawings by H. Doyle, one in particular dealing with these plates, I am pretty sure the surface you are looking for is 30 mm thick. Its interesting, and puzzling, because that would make it 10 mm thicker than the plate on the Pz IV which is actually less inclined. Other than that... There are four surfaces on the hull front, as opposed to the three found on the Pz IV. The middle two, including the big flat one is 80 mm thick. The right (in the direction of travel) vertical superstructure plate is 80mm and the left is 50+30. The welded gun mantlet was 45-50 mm. This was considered a weak spot until partially remedied with the Saukopf mantlet. -- Tiger Again Spielberger miraculously manages to leave it out or the book is simply too thick (Indexes not being his strong suit). However I do have a cutaway armour layout drawing off the web showing the armour in question to be 62 or 68 mm thick, luckily the drawer decided to make this very number the only unclear in the drawing. In any event, I have sent it to you. -- M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted April 8, 2002 Share Posted April 8, 2002 Or i could have checked Rexfords book from the outset There the numbers are: 20 mm @ 72 for the PzIVH 30 mm @ 86 for the StuG III G 60 mm @ 70 for the TIger IE -- Have to give this book a more colorful binder so that I can find it M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted April 8, 2002 Author Share Posted April 8, 2002 Mattias, you're a genius! Thank you very very much! The -authoritative- figures you give are a treasure for my quest/riddle! Besides, they seem very credible to me. My initial assumption that these areas, which are not of neglectable size even from the near-horizontal, represent a considerable armor strength (using geometry alone one arrives at figures of 65mm for the Pz IV, 430mm for the StuG and 120mm for the Tiger, and this toally neglects the added bonus which slope offers beyond the geometrical increase) that exceeds that of the usual frontal armor ratings, seems to carry some weight, at least in the case of the Tiger, and, to a limited degree because due to the sharp angle it represents only a fraction of the area visible, the StuG, but even the Pz IV would probably benefit when you consider the extreme slope. What do you think? Nochmals vielen vielen Dank, Markus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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