The Gate Keepers - how to win? (spoiler)

[istari]

Sigh.

I used to think I was a pretty good tactician, but CM:BB continues to kick my a-- over and over. Just spent an evening playing "The Gate Keepers" as the Germans vs AI, with the recommended +25% force and +1 experience for the Soviets.

I won't go into the gory details, but I managed to kill 9 T-34s, severely damage several others and hold up the advance while losing all 7 PzIIIs - that sloped armor on the "Little 34" is unbelievable! (37mm shots bouncing off repeatedly at 113m!) I had managed to hold them at a distance to the stated game limit of 25 turns, but of course the game extended to 31 turns (grrr), by which point my line had ruptured and the Sovs poured through --> Minor Defeat. I would have had a Minor Victory if the game ended on 25, but it was clear the Soviets had fatally weakened my line.

What is so frustrating is that when I reviewed the Soviet side, they had *26* T-34/40. Given the poor penetration of the 37mm and 50L/42, I can't pull an M1 Abrams vs T-72 and stand-off and destroy them. Letting them get closer sees my PzIIIs overwhelmed by sheer numbers, no matter how I tried to "bite off" small portions with terrain and smart use of Shoot & Scoot.

I clearly have some ideas for round 2 (mass all armor on one side of the map and pounce, defeating in detail), but I like to try to beat a scenario the first time, as that best mimics the real uncertainty of a battle. Did any of you beat this scenario the first time out? If so, how did you do it?

Signed,

A frustrated tanker ;>

[Tankist]

I played it once vs. the Russian AI and got a Major Defeat.

The recommended +25% AND +1 seems too unbalanced for me.

I think giving the AI +25% (for more units) OR +1 (for better shots and less panic) would be a more equal challenge.

The AI in CMBB does a better job than in CMBO, so the SOP of giving it +X%/+X experience is not longer valid IMO.

Tankist

[istari]

Tankist,

Totally agreed - I would have had a much better showing without that +25/+1 balancing. I ended up losing 4 of 7 PzIIIs AFTER the 25 turn limit was exceeded, largely to the pressure of infantry and T-34s getting close. (Jeez - I sound like a poor loser... to the AI. ;>)

Good point though. Of course, the author does thank Fionn Kelly for playbalancing, so that may give you an idea of the expertise used to balance. I'm certainly not in Fionn's class of skill.

Chris

[Longchamps]

Playing Germans vs. AI with the Soviets getting +1 and 25% I got a tactical victory. However the game for me ended on Turn 29 with the Soviets achieving a breakthrough on my left, had the game gone on 3 more turns I was finished.

I put 5 of 7 III's in hulldown position and the other two hidden as best I could on the far flanks. I placed 1 III hulldown close to and left of the main road, a mistake in hindsight as it engaged far too early and was toast quickly.

When the 105's arrived I moved them into firing positions to cover the end of the bridge on my side, but they engaged Soviet armor well in the rear. They made some kills but as you can imagine were fairly quickly destroyed. The 20mm anti tank gun was hidden in the woods and was used to good effect with flank shots and ran out of ammo before being destroyed.

Early in the scenario 1 34 ventured across and was taken out quickly, the remainder of the armor did not begin moving across until around turn 20 or so by my estimate. The mg's on my III's and the half-track did a good job of holding off the Soviet infantry as did my 3 squads which I kept hidden until the infantry was in the open wheat fields. I kept all three squads on the right side of the road with my LMG.

As I said a few more turns and I was done but this did net me a tactical after 29 turns.

Hope this helps,

Longchamps

[istari]

Longchamps,

Sounds like you used the same strategy I did with similar results - I too hid the infantry in the wood and sprung a nasty ambush, while using the 105s with oblique angles to pick off infantry and tanks that came too close to my line.

I actually had the greatest AT success using the 20mm and 45mm (or was it 50mm?) AT guns colocated in the forest - they scored the most kills in the battle.

Perhaps it was designed to be a near thing by Turn 25 if you fought well, and I just had the misfortune to have it randomly extend to 31, wherein my defensive line collapsed.

Still can't figure out how I could've won using my PzIIIs against those well-armored T-34s (vs just holding at bay until time ran out). Any thoughts?

Chris

[Longchamps]

If I had been pushed to Turn 31 I would have had the same result as you I am sure. There was nothing left to stop the breakthrough they had on my left. My 105's engaged the 34's across the river and scored some kills, I think that helped in delaying the inevitable, but it also cost me the guns earlier. I got a lot of kills with that 20mm brought on by the Kubelwagon, I kept it deep in the woods and it got off excellent flank shots for kills.

With regard to the III's I probably engaged them too early, and clearly put one in a death trap on the initial setup. I lost my 50mm AT (the one brought on by the halftrack) before it ever fired a shot. The only way I could imaging the III's surviving is to keep them totally covered from the front and waiting on flank shots, difficult to do on that map though.

Sounds like I got a good break from the AI on the scenario length.

[landser]

Hi, first post here. Love Combat Mission! I played this scenario last night as well. Scored a major victory with computer experience +1 and no strength bonus.

I set up the two best PzIII's in some scattered trees near the road at the far left flank, two more in the center, maybe 200 meters behind the tank hunter team, and the remaining 3 37mm PzIII's on the right flank partially screened by the forest to get flanking shots at any armor that managed to cross the river.

I deployed the infantry to the forest where they have good sight lines to the field in front. When the 105's arrived I sent two on a mad dash to the far left grain field to support the left flank. I put the other two on the right flank. This means two are out of command, but what the heck? I exposed one of these too much and the Opel was knocked out in short order, and the howitzer as well before it could complete setting up. The remaining 105's deployed and I got the Opels back to cover behind the forest.

When the 20mm and 50mm AT assets arrived, they were deployed into the forest to bolster the position held by the infantry platoon, and to achieve flanking shots on any enemy armor that crossed the bridge.

The 105's were quickly spotted and two were knocked out, but not before knocking out 3 of T-34's. One of my PzIII's in the center was spotted by Soviet armor and after a short exchange had it's gun knocked out and sustained a casualty before I could withdraw it to a safer spot.

When the first T-34's reached the ravine I opened fire with the PaK. Infantry had crossed the ravine and were attempting to infiltrate through the rightmost grain field. These were taken under fire by the 37mm PzIII's on the right flank. Due to the heavy fire they were unable to penetrate closer than about 200 meters from my positions.

The 105's on the left flank opened up on some enemy armor on the far bank near the bridge, not scoring kills but causing the T-34's to button up. By turn 25 or so I could see only 2 or 3 T-34's on the far side of the ravine. And the Soviet infantry was now pinned under fire from the 37mm PzIII's and the infantry platoon in the forest. Two more of my 105's were knocked out, leaving one, which was giving the Russian soldiers in the field a hard time.

By turn 25 the enemy advance appeared to have been stopped and I counterattacked on the left flank with the elite and crack PzIII's, which unitl now had not engaged the enemy. To support their attack on the left, I brought the one good tank in the center forward.

As the counterattack moved ahead they were surprised by 5 T-34's that had made it across the river, but were hidden behind the river bank. A vicious engagement errupted at a range of 200 meters. Caught in the flank, 3 T-34's were destroyed, but 2 of my tanks as well. I withdrew the remaining PzIII. This seemed to take all the fight out of the enemy, and the last few turns rolled by marked only by machine gun fire at fleeting infantry targets trying to reach the cover of the ravine.

Altogether I lost 2 tanks destroyed and two damaged or with casualties. All four 105's and one Opel also destroyed. If I had given the computer the 25% bonus things may have turned out quite differently. As it was the Russians were unable to get close enough to make things tense. But with stronger forces who knows?

[istari]

Landser -

Good tactics - excellent food for thought there. Haven't played it again yet, although I may try to implement some of your ideas.

I expected more out of the 50mm in head-to-head engagements, and was unpleasantly surprised at the effect of the sloped armor causing numerous ricochets. Now that I realize how underpowered the PzIIIs are, your ideas of sitting off to either flank to catch broadside sounds good.

How did you hose down the infantry with the PzIIIs without exposing them to volleys from the T-34s behind?

Istari

[landser]

How did you hose down the infantry with the PzIIIs without exposing them to volleys from the T-34s behind?

Hi, and thanks. Good question! The enemy armor was concentrated tightly around the road leading to the bridge. From there they had no LOS to my right flank armor. If they had moved along the river toward my left then I would have been forced to withdraw my tanks behind the forest. In this case the enemy infantry would have been more successful I think. I don't believe my 37mm equipped tanks were engaged by enemy armor at all.

[Massattack]

Hi, enjoyed reading this thread as I have just finished this scenario. I managed a major victory as Axis, giving the AI the recommended +1 exp and +25% forces. I accepted the setup postions, and rushed the 105 reinforcements to keyhole postions on the right flank and centre, moving the infantry platoon up the forest to watch over the near end of the central wheatfield. I kept all units with LOS of 2-300metres, and used shoot and scoot with the 50mm Pz111's to engage the T34s at 5-650 metre ranges, and kept the 37mm ones where they could supress the Russian infantry. I moved the Co Hq over to the far right to keep a watch. The 105mm managed to engage and destroy T34's on the far side of the river as they came into view. I may have been licky with the Pz111's but they did well, and by keeping them relatively unexposed with S n Scoot they managed to dispatch a few T34's.(the Germans being elite v conscript and green T34's must have helped some). The game ended turn 27. None of the T34's crossed the river, but manoevered on both flanks and along the railway to try and pick of the 105's and other targets. The Russian infantry tried to advance up the central wheatfield (just to the left of railway from the Russians POV), but never made an effective advance, mainly due to the MG42 and 2 of the 105's, as well as the tanks on my left flank, though they did not have good los over that field. Later in the game a number of infantry approached these tanks on my left flank but were quickly suppressed. The best the infantry did was to get to about 100 metres from the end of the central wheatfield, where they were quickly routed by the hidden infantry in the forest and the hidden halftrack. By game end I had lost 2 tanks, had one with gun damaged, lost 3 105's. The 20mm ATR finished all its ammo, and I withdrew it. It got no kills but buttoned up and generally annoyed the hell out of a few T34's. The 50mm AT gun I initially set up to guard the far right, but got impatient and moved it to replace the ATR when it's ammo was used up. However it was KOD before it completed moving into position . The Russkies lost 12 tanks in total (about 7 or 8 left) and 218 casualties. My losses were 16 (mostly crew). I will try this as Soviet V AI and see how it pans out.

Regards

Massattack